22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Keraz]

They will also be brought back, saved and protected. So there.

You seem to be a tad childish.
You also don't seem to be able to read or understand the many Prophesies which tell of the virtual demise of the House of Judah. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27

The unbiblical teaching of a Jewish redemption, is a vital tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory. Neither can or will happen.

 

[Keraz]

The one saved is the one where most people in it were killed, and the remnant get saved. That one.

But there IS another Israel, the Israel of God. Not the visible entity currently in the ME.
A true Israelite is one who is a faithful believer in Jesus now, an Israeli is a citizen of a secular State, that relies on their own strength to protect them.
Being an Overcomer for God, as we see in each of the seven Church's of Revelation 2 & 3, is what confers the status of an Israelite, as the actual meaning of the word Israel proves.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Do you believe that Jesus was not created and is eternal (has always existed)? I'm talking about Jesus as God here. Obviously, He is also a human being and was born over 2,000 years ago, but I'm only talking about His deity here.

Yes, and always been God. He created the earth.

 

[jeffweeder]

Why would we think you had to do something so that Jesus returned?

You misunderstand. What do we do different in the premill when Jesus returns?
How can those who somehow survive the second coming have Faith in what they will then see in all his Glory.
What is the point of this future millennium if they cannot be saved by Faith??

[Quote Dad ] You do not comprehend the light you read. What surprises me is that you thought you were in a position to teach!]

Peter did the teaching , I just quoted his teaching.

 

[Taken]

22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine
OP ^

Nope, not a quitter. ;)

 

[dad]

You seem to be a tad childish.
You also don't seem to be able to read or understand the many Prophesies which tell of the virtual demise of the House of Judah. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27

The unbiblical teaching of a Jewish redemption, is a vital tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory. Neither can or will happen.

There is nothing 'unbiblical' about looking at the promises of God. The trouble they go through before that does not take away from anything. Being taken into the air to meet Him is bible 101. God is not an anti Semite. He has no problem saving Jews at all.

 

[dad]

But there IS another Israel, the Israel of God.

There is a true Israel. That is the believers of which all will be when all Israel is saved!

A true Israelite is one who is a faithful believer in Jesus now, an Israeli is a citizen of a secular State, that relies on their own strength to protect them.

Who cares what state they are in now? They will get saved one day. Some already are.

Being an Overcomer for God, as we see in each of the seven Church's of Revelation 2 & 3, is what confers the status of an Israelite

Chapter and verse that says salvation is by works? When Israel finally says uncle and accepts Jesus is when they get saved. That is overcoming!

 

[dad]

You misunderstand. What do we do different in the premill when Jesus returns?

I don't know what a premil is. When is a premil?

How can those who somehow survive the second coming have Faith in what they will then see in all his Glory.

The remnant does not 'somehow survive the coming of Jesus'. They survived the tribulation! His coming is why they are even alive. He destroys all enemies as soon as they get saved.

What is the point of this future millennium if they cannot be saved by Faith??

Why claim the remnant had no faith? Do you even realize it when you make stuff up any more?

Peter did the teaching , I just quoted his teaching.

If you understood what you quoted you might have a point.

 

[rockytopva]

It is God's will for us to be ready... As the Bible says....

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

 

[covenantee]

Yes. He gathers them to live in Israel.

NT Scripture for that?

If them are in Christ, do they go to Israel, or to heaven?

 

[jeffweeder]

I don't know what a premil is. When is a premil?


The remnant does not 'somehow survive the coming of Jesus'. They survived the tribulation! His coming is why they are even alive. He destroys all enemies as soon as they get saved.

Why claim the remnant had no faith? Do you even realize it when you make stuff up any more?

If you understood what you quoted you might have a point.

For some odd reason you haven't got a clue what I am trying to say.

A premillennialist is someone who believes in a 1000 year reign on this old earth after the second coming, by a Glorified Jesus and Glorified saints over the unrepentant who survive his coming. Those unrepentant are clearly not the remnant.
If you dont understand this then what are you doing on this thread.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You're not telling the whole story here about Amils, which I find to be a dishonest tactic on your part. We reject the notion of anybody coming to Christ in the next age, not because of God failing to keep His promises, but rather because the next age is eternal.

I'm "dishonest" for telling people just what Amils believe? I never said Amils believe God's promises failed. I said they believe God's promises were fulfilled in the international Church of the *present age.*

For me, that means God's promises failed with regard to "all Israel being saved." That, of course, does not mean that all Israel will be spiritually regenerated, but that the entire country will be liberated from foreign aggression. It is a political salvation made possible by the repentance of the majority.

Look at what Jesus said about this age in contrast to the age to come (or next age):

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Please note that Jesus is explicitly referring to people who satisfy 2, and not just 1, criteria. They are found worthy of taking part in the age to come, and they are considered worthy to take part in the resurrection from the dead. This means the non-Christians of the present age will not partake in the resurrection to take place at Christ's Coming. So what is your point?

So, what Jesus indicated about this age that we're living in now is that people get married and they die and the resurrection of the dead does not yet occur. And He indicated that once the resurrection of the dead occurs at the end of this age (which is when Jesus returns) then the "age to come" or next age will be ushered in during which people "will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die". A clear reference to eternity. So, your understanding of the age to come does not match what Jesus taught about it.

No, you're reading too much into this that isn't being said. This is not saying there will be no mortals in the next age--just that non-Christians in the present age will not be glorified in the next age.

 

[Keraz]

Chapter and verse that says salvation is by works?

Salvation is by belief in the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus.

When Israel finally says uncle and accepts Jesus is when they get saved. That is overcoming!

You completely ignore the more that 20 Prophesies which tell how the Lord will punish Jewish Israel and only a small remnant of Christian Jews will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, +

 

[Randy Kluth]

Nice to know they do not believe the bible, so they can be flushed.

Nevertheless the special specific Great Tribulation is that time when God deals with Israel in a special and specific way. Nothing compares to that time of trouble.

Actually, Jesus was referring to the Jewish Punishment, which is the greatest punishment and the longest punishment the Jews have ever faced. By contrast, the wilderness wandering was only 40 years. The Babylonian Captivity was only 70 years. The NT judgment of Israel has lasted for 2000 years! That's what makes it incomparable to all other tribulation periods that Israel has faced.

The Jewish Diaspora is what Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse when he indicated there would be "great distress" or "great tribulation." It was a punishment against the Jews that began with the destruction of their temple and their major city, Jerusalem.

People often confuse this statement of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse with the reign of Antichrist, which will also be terrible. But they are not the same.

Only the saved will be restored and protected etc.

I don't find that to be true. God protects people who He wants to preserve in order to give them further opportunity to accept Him. Even before we're saved we're given opportunities that we don't deserve. We were given chances before we were saved.

There will be no entire nation except for that remnant that accept Jesus in the end. The rest were all killed. Christians have their home with Jesus in that place He prepared. I am not sure that Israel will need non Jews to rule them since they will be believers.

I never said non-Jews will rule Israel. Jewish believers who are glorified will rule over mortal Israel, who will all accept a Christian constitution but will not necessarily all be genuine Christians. Never has a nation consisted entirely of genuine Christians. It will be no different in the Millennium.

I don't agree that only a remnant of Israel will exist in the Millennium. Paul said "all Israel will be saved," meaning that not just a piece of a nation will be saved, but a whole nation. In ancient times Israel was humiliated when only a part of the nation was salvaged, and foreigners had taken portions of Israel away. The promise to the Jews was that one day they will be completely liberated forever, including every part of Israel. How meaningful that is in our own day, when Israel is challenged for every bit of ground they settle, even though those lands were part of ancient Israel.

OK, I guess we don't need to fine tune it all. I envision God gathering the Jews who believe from all over the world and restoring them to that land. I could be wrong, but I suspect a lot of Jews who are saved now and with Jesus would choose to live at least part time in the land of promise here.

Right, He says we will rule with Him.

Bingo! While spending maybe a lot of time on earth it will not be our home then. Israel is the exception I think, since they were promised (and want) that land!
We are close on that point. I think ALL Israel will be saved. Not a majority of Israel.
Now that gets into a speculative area, - who are the people on earth being ruled over. Not sure this thread is the place to flesh that one out.

I appreciate your being a bit more modest about your opinions. I also admit I'm speculating about a future scenario that really isn't the priority in the Bible. Some of it is important--other things not. But it is interesting to talk it out. I learn from that.

Again, I think Israel will be a nation in the Millennium just like now, except that they will own every part of their land. That's the meaning of, "all Israel will be saved." It is a political salvation from their enemies, which is based upon a mass repentance of Jews at the return of Christ. They will never again suffer the loss of their land to foreigners.

This does not mean every Jew will be regenerated, or spiritually saved. It just means that because the vast majority of Jews will repent, the dominance of Christians among them will cause the nation to turn to Christianity. This will ensure that God will never again turn them over to their enemies. Just how I see it. Thanks for the conversation!

 

[Truther]

You seem to be a tad childish.
You also don't seem to be able to read or understand the many Prophesies which tell of the virtual demise of the House of Judah. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27

The unbiblical teaching of a Jewish redemption, is a vital tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory. Neither can or will happen.

You teach exactly the opposite of what the Prophets taught. Even Jesus in Acts chapter 1 told the apostles it’s not for them to know the times or the seasons when Israel would be restored as Jesus’ kingdom. You have a lot to learn.
With God, promises made to the fathers are promises kept.

 

[dad]

NT Scripture for that?

If them are in Christ, do they go to Israel, or to heaven?

Well, they were promised that land.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations. Genesis 17:4
They are identified today as the Christian, Western nations. Galatians 3:29 clearly states that people who belong to Christ ARE the children of Abraham.
The wrong idea that a mixed race people group who have occupied a small part of the holy Land, are the exclusive inheritors of God's Promises to Israel, is error and falsely promotes them as someone special.

I do not personally hold to the idea that Israel is "special," or of elite status. They are to be recognized as the first nation of God, and as such a firstborn among nations called to God's service.

As such, I believe God intends to return not just Israel to a walk with God, but also the many Christian nations that have been falling into apostasy. God intends to restore *all* of these nations. Israel is just one of the many, and in fact, smaller than most. But they laid the groundwork for the entire Christian enterprise. And for that they should be respected, because they bear the scars of being who they were called to be.

Keep in mind the same holds true for those of us in Christian nations who have been suffering setbacks in our faithfulness. We also will suffer the humiliation of belonging to a failed people, and will suffer along with those who have brought this upon our nations.

 

[dad]

For some odd reason you haven't got a clue what I am trying to say.

A premillennialist is someone who believes in a 1000 year reign on this old earth after the second coming, by a Glorified Jesus and Glorified saints over the unrepentant who survive his coming. Those unrepentant are clearly not the remnant.
If you dont understand this then what are you doing on this thread.

I know what the term means. Your grammar and usage did not fit that whatsoever. So what about it?

 

[dad]

Salvation is by belief in the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus.

Great, so the remnant believes in the end. What about it?

You completely ignore the more that 20 Prophesies which tell how the Lord will punish Jewish Israel and only a small remnant of Christian Jews will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, +

False. I said most would be killed and that only those relatively few remaining would be saved.

 

[dad]

Actually, Jesus was referring to the Jewish Punishment, which is the greatest punishment and the longest punishment the Jews have ever faced. By contrast, the wilderness wandering was only 40 years. The Babylonian Captivity was only 70 years. The NT judgment of Israel has lasted for 2000 years! That's what makes it incomparable to all other tribulation periods that Israel has faced.

Actually, the great tribulation is referring to several years in the end.

The Jewish Diaspora is what Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse when he indicated there would be "great distress" or "great tribulation." It was a punishment against the Jews that began with the destruction of their temple and their major city, Jerusalem.

Says who?
The Great Tribulation is for all the world and it did not begin yet.
We know when that starts.

Matthew 24:15

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Matthew 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So the AntiChrist did not place the abomination in Jesus' day. Whatever happened in those days is not the great tribulation, and not like the great tribulation even!

People often confuse this statement of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse with the reign of Antichrist, which will also be terrible. But they are not the same.

Not sure what statement you are talking about. The verses above show clearly that the tribulation starts in the future and is unlike anything anyone ever saw or will see after.

I don't find that to be true. God protects people who He wants to preserve in order to give them further opportunity to accept Him. Even before we're saved we're given opportunities that we don't deserve. We were given chances before we were saved.

Great. So what does that have to do with what we were talking about (all Israel getting saved)

I never said non-Jews will rule Israel. Jewish believers who are glorified will rule over mortal Israel, who will all accept a Christian constitution but will not necessarily all be genuine Christians. Never has a nation consisted entirely of genuine Christians. It will be no different in the Millennium.

Again, says who? Many of the last shall be first. How do we know Jesus will not use the newly saved Israel to rule themselves, under His direction? I see nothing in the bible about some so called constitution for Israel? Nor do I see anything anywhere that says anyone in Israel will not then be a believer.

I don't agree that only a remnant of Israel will exist in the Millennium. Paul said "all Israel will be saved," meaning that not just a piece of a nation will be saved, but a whole nation.

All that is left alive! And that will be the remnant.

In ancient times Israel was humiliated when only a part of the nation was salvaged, and foreigners had taken portions of Israel away. The promise to the Jews was that one day they will be completely liberated forever, including every part of Israel. How meaningful that is in our own day, when Israel is challenged for every bit of ground they settle, even though those lands were part of ancient Israel.

So what? That land has not been given to them again yet! That only happens after all Israel gets saved in the end. Right now they are there on thier own volition as far as I can see.

Again, I think Israel will be a nation in the Millennium just like now, except that they will own every part of their land. That's the meaning of, "all Israel will be saved."

They will possess all that they were promised which is a lot more than what Israel has today. What it means when it says all Israel will be saved is that all the remaining people there (or abroad also) will be saved. Not all the territory will be saved. They will have far far more territory when God restores them.

It is a political salvation from their enemies, which is based upon a mass repentance of Jews at the return of Christ. They will never again suffer the loss of their land to foreigners.

No. Israel being saved means they accept Jesus, nothing to do with politics. Since a vast majority in Israel are killed in the tribulation I am not sure the term mass repentance is the best one.

This does not mean every Jew will be regenerated, or spiritually saved.

Yes it does. They will see Jesus whom they killed and weep as for an only son in sorrow and repentance. There is no salvation except Jesus. Period.

It just means that because the vast majority of Jews will repent, the dominance of Christians among them will cause the nation to turn to Christianity.

Chapter and verse?

This will ensure that God will never again turn them over to their enemies. Just how I see it. Thanks for the conversation!

What ensures God will be with them is them getting saved. Not some gentile Christians forming a large part of their politics!