22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[marks]

Im not actually sure of what Gods purpose for those thousand years is. I could only guess.

One reason I can think of is that God promised this to Israel if they kept their covenant. Jesus fulfilled their covenant on their behalf, so when the nation comes to faith, God gives them the benefit of Jesus' fulfilling their covenant. And God promised them to save them. So when He does, they receive the blessings. The kingdom.

That's some of my thinking.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

Well, it’s not taken just from one passage. It’s gotten here and there in prophecy, both old and new testaments.

Show me one passage in Scripture that teaches what you are alleging about this supposed improved age including Rev 20?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Um…I don’t think the wicked do escape the wrath of God. I think they’re burnt up right before the new earth…

I’m not sure where you get the third group of people from?

So, who exactly do you think will survive the wrath of God that will come down when Christ returns? Paul indicated that Jesus will destroy those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Jesus. Believers will be changed to have immortal bodies at that time, so what mortals does that leave to populate the earth at that point?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Do you think that scripture doesn't say anything about the purpose of that significant time period?

I don’t know. I haven’t yet noted any verse that specifically and succinctly tells God purpose and as I said, I can only guess.

 

[WPM]

One reason I can think of is that God promised this to Israel if they kept their covenant. Jesus fulfilled their covenant on their behalf, so when the nation comes to faith, God gives them the benefit of Jesus' fulfilling their covenant. And God promised them to save them. So when He does, they receive the blessings. The kingdom.

That's some of my thinking.

Much love!

Where in Rev 20 does it say that this is the fulfilment of God promise to Israel if they kept their covenant? Why can He not save them in the here-and-now? Are you limiting the Holy Spirit?

 

[WPM]

Correct. Those people take the mark.

So, why are the not glorified when Jesus comes with all the rest of the redeemed?

 

[Timtofly]

As usual, you missed the point. It's only Amils being criticized for our comments while nothing is said about a Premil who is making rude remarks in all of his posts and even saying people are denying Christ.

The 22 reasons is criticism against premill. It will just go down hill from there. Bullying is just as nonsensical as rudeness.

 

[Truth7t7]

1. Surely the Jerusalem Premils portray in their alleged future millennium is altogether different to the one depicted in Zechariah 14:2 that is being attacked, “the houses rifled,” and “the women ravished”?
2. How can women in the millennium be "ravished" (or raped) when no one in Jerusalem is even mortal anymore (Zechariah 14:2)?
3. Zechariah 14:2-3, tells us that the result of the attack of the nations against Jerusalem is that “half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” Surely this contradicts the whole Premillennial portrayal of Jerusalem during the millennium? This surely runs contrary to the perfect pristine peaceful Jerusalem Premils like to present in their literature, where Israel is exalted to a racially privileged position for 1,000 years?
4. How then can Jerusalem prosper when half of its population are dead and the other half are prisoners restrained by chains? I thought this was a glorious time for the city?
5. How can Premils reconcile their conflicting “proof-texts” that in one breath teach that “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-17) and “the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD” (Isaiah 56:6-7) yet in the next breath at the exact same time because Jerusalem is a "holy" place, a prohibition is placed on all Gentiles that "there shall no strangers pass through her any more" (Joel 3:17) and “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel” (Ezekiel 44:9)?
6. If Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 relate to the second coming (as Premils argue) then we have another contradiction: how can we have Egypt still existing in Zechariah 14:17-19 when Joel 3 clearly demonstrates that “Egypt shall be a desolation” (v19)? How does Premil magically raise this rebellious nation?

(The Eternal Kingdom) "After" The Day Of The Lord

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Show me one passage in Scripture that teaches what you are alleging about this supposed improved age including Rev 20?

4 The Lord will mediate between nations
and will settle international disputes.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
nor train for war anymore.

 

[marks]

When did "the last days" begin? When do they end? When is "the last day" of "the last days"?

In this context,

Isaiah 2:2-4 KJV
2) And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3) And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4) And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

. . . I'd answer that these last days are as these things be fulfilled. In the last days, Jesus will establish His rule over the earth from Jerusalem.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Micah 4:1-7 KJV
1) But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2) And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3) And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4) But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5) For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
6) In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7) And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

When are the last days? Some time after Christ returns? Not according to scripture.

Acts 2:16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

In the passage above Peter indicated that the last days had already begun on the day of Pentecost and would be a time period during which people call on the name of the Lord and are saved.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

In the passage above Peter indicated that the last days lead up to the second coming of Christ. So, does your understanding of the timing of Micah 4 line up with the timing of the last days as given in Acts 2:16-21 and 2 Peter 3:3-4?

There are last days as related to the Sinai covenant, to Israel, to the church, of the age, were to quote the particular passage or passages you have in mind that could help.

In this context,

Isaiah 2:2-4 KJV
2) And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3) And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4) And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

. . . I'd answer that these last days are as these things be fulfilled. In the last days, Jesus will establish His rule over the earth from Jerusalem.

Much love!

Why do you have the last days extending beyond the day Jesus returns? As I showed above, the last days cover the New Testament time period going back to at least the day of Pentecost up until the day Christ returns on the last of the last days.

 

[marks]

You are not addressing the contradictions, as they expose Premil. Your continued avoidance is doing nothing to advance your case.

What contradiction? Be specific. Give Scripture. Name the "contradiction". I'm showing Scripture after Scripture which teach these things.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

4 The Lord will mediate between nations
and will settle international disputes.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
nor train for war anymore.

This makes no mention of your millennium!

When did "the last days" begin? When do they end? When is "the last day" of "the last days"?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What is more, if they are found worthy to escape the wrath of God, why are they not glorified like all of the rest of the saints? Are you inventing different levels or grades of saints? like the JWs?

I think they were in the first resurrection and have their new glorified bodies…

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

4 The Lord will mediate between nations
and will settle international disputes.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
nor train for war anymore.

I recognize that as Isaiah 2:4, but you should specify which book and chapter you are quoting from in case someone doesn't know. Please read my post #331 where I show what time period the last days refers to, according to scripture. It does not refer to a time period after Christ returns.

 

[WPM]

What contradiction? Be specific. Give Scripture. Name the "contradiction". I'm showing Scripture after Scripture which teach these things.

Much love!

You did not answer one single question (as is your pattern) but ducked around the issues. Please re-address.

 

[WPM]

I recognize that as Isaiah 2:4, but you should specify which book and chapter you are quoting from in case someone doesn't know. Please read my post #331 where I show what time period the last days refers to, according to scripture. It does not refer to a time period after Christ returns.

I agree. Exactly!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This makes no mention of your millennium!

Well…what do you think it is making mention of?

 

[marks]

When did "the last days" begin? When do they end? When is "the last day" of "the last days"?

Daniel 12:12-13 KJV
12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Context is king . . . as they say . . .

Much love!

 

[WPM]

I think they were in the first resurrection and have their new glorified bodies…

So how are people dying in your future millennium? There must be mortals in it.

 

[WPM]

Well…what do you think it is making mention of?

The "last days."