22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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stunnedbygrace

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What I was meaning is that the verse below used Israel as the whole world so the bible gives it permission to in other verses as well

John 12:19
So the Pharisees said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!”

okay, that’s fair…I’m not sure I would then go through the whole Bible and replace world everywhere it occurs with Israel though. When God says world, I’m not inclined to insist that what God means when He says the word must match with what the Pharisees meant when they said it…
Im also not sure that the Pharisees even meant Israel only when they said world. There were some nonisraelites who approached Jesus too. I’m sure they saw some of that.
Did I make my thought clear?
 
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WPM

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It is a futile discussion. Most of us are laymen so yes a more scholarly outside teaching is needed. Take it or not - I just don't care to spend much time refuting Amillennialism anymore.

That is because you have nothing to bring to the table apart from pointless insults.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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It is a futile discussion. Most of us are laymen so yes a more scholarly outside teaching is needed. Take it or not - I just don't care to spend much time refuting Amillennialism anymore.

I think if your goal is to change people’s minds, it’s a futile discussion. If your goal is to learn what other men think, it’s not futile at all.
 

Davy

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Please stop avoiding the issue. Are the following "filled with vanity" in your opinion - yes or no? Are these Christ-like?

“This is hilarious.”

"Hogwash!"

"Balderdash!”

"more hot air!"

"You need to repent to Jesus and ask Him forgiveness for denying His Word."

It's OBVIOUS folks that this person DOES NOT KNOW what The Bible says as written. This is the reason for his total lack of continuity in The Scriptures and disregard for what is written in them.
 

WPM

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It's OBVIOUS folks that this person DOES NOT KNOW what The Bible says as written. This is the reason for his total lack of continuity in The Scriptures and disregard for what is written in them.

I agree. This is totally unacceptable.
 

Timtofly

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So, what other NT text supposedly teaches a thousand years after the second coming?
What NT text claims a 1992 year "fulness of the Gentiles" period of time? Daniel was one of the last prophets in the 70 years of exile. Gabriel told him about a 483 year period of time.

Should all of those who read that declare "that time" indefinite and in the here and now of the Babylonian captivity? Which other OT prophet declared a future 483 year time period? Were there a few all basing their "eschatology" on that one lone chapter?

Why change God's word from "one thousand years" to "whatever we say goes"?
 

Marty fox

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okay, that’s fair…I’m not sure I would then go through the whole Bible and replace world everywhere it occurs with Israel though. When God says world, I’m not inclined to insist that what God means when He says the word must match with what the Pharisees meant when they said it…
Im also not sure that the Pharisees even meant Israel only when they said world. There were some nonisraelites who approached Jesus too. I’m sure they saw some of that.
Did I make my thought clear?

I don’t think so either but it definitely doesn’t always mean Israel but at times it did because it was the world that they knew. Just like the times Paul used the term whole world or other times it just meant the known world.
 

Davy

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Here's a few FACTS, since folks on the false doctrine of men called Amillennialism like to claim how long they USED TO believe the Pre-Mill position instead before they 'saw the light of Amill', and then studied a thousand years of their life to know it is so, and so on with just more idiotic malarkey.

FACT: the 1st century Church fathers were ALL pre-mill.

The doctrine of Amillennialism, is the denial of a short period of reign by Jesus and His elect over the unsaved with "a rod of iron", even though that future reign after Jesus' future return is written in Psalms 2, Zechariah 14, Revelation 3, and Revelation 20.

Amillennialism crept in among some early Churches along with the time that the Gnostics stole pieces of Christian doctrine and joined it with Greek Neoplatonism in the 2nd century A.D. The Gnostics denied that Jesus is God come in the flesh, and denied that Jesus died on the cross. The heresy of Gnosticism is actually part of the heresy of Amillennialism. These attempted changes of what the Scriptures actually show as written all come from the same source of pagan Gnosticism of the 2nd century.

FACT: modern branches of the old Gnosticism exists to this day. Books like The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail, The Da Vinci Code, etc., push the old 2nd century pagan Gnostic ideas that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children, and suggests there is a cabal that is hiding the truth about Jesus.

FACT: Amillennialism today is about those behind the movement to establish a "one world government". Because Amillennialism denies Christ's future reign and Kingdom over the unsaved as written, they are busy trying to say 'today'... is already Christ's Kingdom having come, of THIS PRESENT WORLD. It is not. We are seeing the establishing of Satan's final beast kingdom, a "one world government" over all nations and peoples. That... is the world system that is written of in God's Word for the very end of this present world, which Jesus will come to destroy. Thus Amillennialism is linked to modernist Church movements that support the false 'Kingdom Now' doctrine, saying that today is Christ's Kingdom. Some on that false idea even claim that everyone today will eventually come to believe on Jesus Christ and it's up to Christ's saints today to establish His Kingdom DURING this present world. That is actually the new world order hosts of the devil claiming that.

This is why Amillennialism is a doctrine of the devil, and is designed to deceive one into putting their faith in this PRESENT WORLD TIME, which is ordained by God to be destroyed.
 
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Truth7t7

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That is not true. He is highlighting the ongoing avoidance and the unfair personal attacks. It is Premils that are ducking around the Op. They obviously have no rebuttal.
Nothing new, pre-millennialism isn't found in scripture and they know it
 
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Truth7t7

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Yes but I believe that the 6 seals are the same time as the events in the Olivit discourse they are they read the same and I believe they happened in the time leading up to 70AD the destruction of Jerusalem.
Since when in history were the events of the 6th seal seen below, Josephus historical journals are silent on that seen below?

The seals are "Future" events unfulfilled, and had absolutely no relationship to 66-70AD Jerusalem as you claim

1.) Stars fall from heaven?
2.) Heavens depart like a scroll?
3.) Every Island and mountain moved out of place?
4.) Kings of "The Earth" hiding in the rocks for fear, "Every Freeman"?

These events didn't take place in 66-70AD as you claim, you now must get your "Preterist" magic wand of symbolism out to account for that seen below

Revelation 6:12-17KJV
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
 
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Timtofly

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Again, you interprtet Rev 20 by your opinion of Rev 20.That is horrible hermeneutics.

Revelation is full of 7 recaps. In my opinion,

is horrible hermeneutics.

So Mark's opinion is bad hermeneutics along with your bad hermeneutics?

Explain how the natural chronological order is the reader's opinion and not that of John the author, while explaining your opinion is superior to John's writing?
 

Davy

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Nothing new, pre-millennialism isn't found in scripture and they know it

It's the pre-trib rapture theory that is not found in Scripture.

The coming of Christ PRIOR to the Revelation 20 "thousand years" millennium IS WRITTEN in God's Word, and that YOU KNOW, even though you DENY that written Scripture.
 

Timtofly

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That's fine. But, it's interesting that you don't criticize Davy for his style. Any reason for that?
That would be off topic, no?

Unless the topic is to criticize and make examples of all premill posters, and just put up with Amils playing 20 questions?
 

Truth7t7

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It's the pre-trib rapture theory that is not found in Scripture.

The coming of Christ PRIOR to the Revelation 20 "thousand years" millennium IS WRITTEN in God's Word, and that YOU KNOW, even though you DENY that written Scripture.
No such thing as a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you believe and teach

Jesus Returns in fire and final judgement (The End)
 

Timtofly

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No one said otherwise. But, having the NT scripture makes it much easier to discern the OT scripture.
So now we can see that Isaiah 65 will last 1,000 years. Is stating the time less clear, or should we use the word "indefinite" to clarify Revelation 20's use of a thousand years? So now we are back to Isaiah 65 being an indefinite period of time. Do you recall in history were people lived as trees building their own houses?

Do we get to build our own mansions and have offspring in the future? You claim Isaiah 65 was fulfilled as the captivity returning from Babylon. Or do you claim this will happen in the future contradicting all your points about heaven?
 

Timtofly

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okay thanks for answering. I have confusion between being told in the OT to not wish that day to come because it will be darkness and destruction with no light and that you don’t know what you’re saying to wish that day to come, while also the NT speaking of those who love the thought of His appearing and hastening the day. I don’t think they can be speaking of the same exact day. My mind can’t reconcile it otherwise.
It should bring peace of mind to the righteous.

It should bring terror and dread to the unrighteous.

Who was being addressed? The righteous or unrighteous?

Most here want to make the Day of the Lord a literal 24 hour day. The Day of the Lord is the symbolism that is defined in the literal 1,000 year time span.

So Amil declare 1,000 symbolic, and the Day of the Lord a literal 24 hours. Obviously time does not matter to them, as they declare time does not matter to God. Since time was created into the current creation, then neither should creation matter to God. Where do Amil draw the line in what actually matters to God? The line should be drawn at the point the Day of the Lord is figurative. The 1,000 years is literal. Time does matter to God, because God is patient and longsuffering.
 

Davy

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No such thing as a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you believe and teach

Jesus Returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

I will believe The Word of God over what you say...

Rev 20:1-7
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

KJV

God's Word does not treat those kind of time phrases as metaphors. When given like that it means a LITERAL PERIOD OF TIME.
 

Randy Kluth

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Since abandoning Premillennialism I have engaged in many debates/discussions on the matter of the second coming, end-times and the here-after. These are some of the major weaknesses I find in the Premillennialism doctrine, and are strong reasons why I believe the dogma should be rejected.

I come at it from the opposite direction, and would add some commentary myself. I was raised in a communion that was Amill before I knew there was anything else. Nobody in my church ever mentioned a thousand year period, except that I read it in the Scriptures, in the book of Revelation. And in that book we are told it is dangerous to omit what is written there. So I will not omit mention of a Millennium which is, in fact, there.

What I normally get is either blatant avoidance of the issues or "Revelation 20 says." This is so frustrating because Revelation 20 does not corroborate Revelation 20.

What frustrates me is that I constantly hear this argument from Amills, who say that evidence of the Millennial Kingdom is *only* in Rev 20, when the fact is, we are told throughout Scripture that Messiah is bringing with him *God's Kingdom!* While it's true that we don't see other references to a specific length of time for this Kingdom, we are told that it lies in a future era. Some call it "Eternity," and some call it the "Millennium." But I don't think there should be any confusion that there is basis for a future Kingdom throughout the prophetic Scriptures!

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20.

This is a repeat of the point I just answered. Beyond that, there is evidence that Jews, prior to Christian Premillennialism, believed that there would be a 7th millennium in human history, just as there was 7th day in the 7 days of creation. It's called the Millennial Day Theory.

This idea was apparently based on the Scripture which said, "A day is as a thousand years." So there isn't much biblical basis for the "Millennium" as a specific number of years. But the principle of "Seven" is certainly a big part of Scripture, and the translation of Seven into Seven Thousand may have some basis, as well.

(2) Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time.

I would agree that the visions in Revelation are not all chronological, even if there is a progressive narrative sequence. But in this case, the narrative requires there to be an advance in time following the return of Christ to destroy Antichrist. Satan, who was animating Antichrist, is bound for a thousand years, and later deposited where Antichrist had already been deposited. That requires a specific chronology that places ch. 20 after ch. 19.

(3) The detail Premil attributes to Revelation 20 compared to what the actual text explicitly says is day and night. Revelation 20 does not remotely say what Premil attribute to it. Many extravagant characteristics, events and ideas are inserted into Revelation 20 that do not exist in the said chapter.

For example:

· For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?

As I said before, the coming of the Messianic Kingdom is a regular theme, sometimes explicitly and sometimes inferentially, in the prophetic Scriptures. It is not only not a difference between night and day--it is the same thing! Christ's Kingdom, as stated in prophecy, is *precisely* what Rev 20 indicates, that Christ's Kingdom will be so dominant that rebellion against Christianity will not be tolerated. Christian Kingdoms, including Israel's Christian Kingdom, will not be repressed.

· Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that? The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is no more salvation after that.

Saying "today is the day of Salvation" is *not* denying that Salvation is tomorrow also! It is just arguing for the present availability of salvation in the prospect that our lives could be called into account at any time. People will, in fact, get saved tomorrow even though *today* is the day of salvation! ;)

There is nothing in Scripture that indicates human history will effect a change in man's sin nature after Christ comes, except that God will impose tolerance for Christianity on earth, both politically and individually. Not all nations will choose for Christianity, however. Need we find evidence for this reality in Scriptures when it is already so?

We would need evidence that it would stop, which Scripture does not do! On the contrary, we are told in Revelation that the Kingdom will have to be *imposed* by the authority of Christ and his glorified Church. That suggests human sin continues in the future Kingdom of Christ when Christianity has to be forcibly made to be tolerated.

Rev 2.27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

· They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching.

Not all Premills are Dispensationalists. I would agree that Dispensationalists are too literal in their claim that Israel and her former worship under the Law will reemerge as supreme in the Millennial Age. Use of terminology of the Law becomes, in the NT Scriptures, symbolic of Christ himself because he fulfilled the Law. Nor do I think Israel will be the greatest Christian nation in the Millennium--just honored as the 1st of many nations of God.

This already addresses all of the issues you raise. But be at peace with what you believe. These are not things that will get you into heaven, nor keep you from getting in! ;)
 
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Timtofly

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· Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
· These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”
· The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s future Advent in glory.
· It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.
· This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
· The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
· We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
· What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
· The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
· What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
· The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
· The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.
Some last day scoffers scoff at a future Day of the Lord known as the 1,000 year reign.

Peter never claims the earth passes away. Peter claims the earth is cleansed by this event.

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

What is going to remain but holiness and godliness? Other scriptures point to works being burned up and only what is purified remains. That which is purified will still produce fruit on the earth. Amil have the earth a burnt offering with nothing left for Jesus to hand back to God. The Day of the Lord is when Jesus reigns to hand back a complete and perfect creation. Full of humans and their good works. Amil forget that the time of burnt offerings ended in the first century at the Cross.

The here and now is not the time of perfection under the iron rod rule. That time starts when Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives to carry out the cleansing in person. The fire at the end does not destroy the earth nor the heavens. It consumes those who live in the Kingdom, who chose Satan over God. Once this rebellious group is dealt with Death is defeated and a perfect creation is handed back to God.
 

Truth7t7

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I will believe The Word of God over what you say...

Rev 20:1-7
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

KJV

God's Word does not treat those kind of time phrases as metaphors. When given like that it means a LITERAL PERIOD OF TIME.
Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

Timtofly

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It’s not a matter of if they will buy can they.
Satan's deception and threats are meaningless. I thought you can be quoted as saying "some posters give Satan too much credit"? That is exactly what you claim here.

It is God who places the mark so all can see who has been removed from the Lamb's book of life. Yes, that same God who loved the world and provided the Lamb, Himself as the Atonement.
 
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