14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

[David in NJ]

There are numerous aspects of the illustration that have already been highlighted, indicating that it should not be taken literally. Even if countless additional details are presented, those who cling to the idea of a torturous hell for human souls will remain unwavering in their belief...

Another point to consider lies in Abraham's words within the illustration. From the statements directed at the rich man enduring figurative torments, one can infer that he is situated in a realm of unending anguish. Yet, Jesus proclaimed that a resurrection would occur for both the righteous AND the wicked, making it clear that the parable is metaphorical and does not depict the actual condition of the deceased. Instead, it illustrates the disillusionment many will face on judgment day, as they come to the realization that their connection to God was not as profound as they had presumed.

Moreover, it is absurd to imagine that individuals would be extracted from a place of supposed flames, later subjected to another judgment for the same they were already paying, and subsequently cast into another location to continue their torment. This scenario clearly reflects a grotesque human scheme designed to inflict an unbearable imaginary suffering on those deemed undesirable, which can in no way stem from a benevolent God like the Father of Jesus.

Jer. 7:29 (...) Jehovah has rejected and will abandon this generation that has infuriated him. 30 ‘For the people of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ declares Jehovah. ‘They have set up their disgusting idols in the house that bears my name, in order to defile it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’

Yet, Jesus proclaimed that a resurrection would occur for both the righteous AND the wicked, making it clear that the parable is metaphorical and does not depict the actual condition of the deceased.

Have you ever read Revelation?

Have you ever prayed to the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[charity]

There was a certain rich man,
.. which was clothed in purple and fine linen,
.... and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,
.. which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
.... And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:
...... moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass,
.. that the beggar died,
.... and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
...... the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments,
.. and seeth Abraham afar off,
.... and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said,
.. Father Abraham, have mercy on me,
.... and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue;
...... for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said,
.. Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things,
.... and likewise Lazarus evil things:
...... but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
........ And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
.......... so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
............ neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said,
.. I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
.... For I have five brethren;
...... that he may testify unto them,
........ lest they also come into this place of torment.
.......... Abraham saith unto him,
............ They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham:
.. but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
.... And he said unto him,
...... If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
........ neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'
(Luke 16:19-31)

* The Lord Jesus Christ, said concerning the doctrine of the Pharisees, 'Beware' (Matt.16:6, Mar. 8:15, Luke 12:1). This was not said without reason, and subsequent experience has proved it to be a warning which has not been heeded. For these words of our Lord which were a form of irony, in which He exposes the unscriptural nature of Pharisaic doctrine and it's hypocritical nature in practice; has been used, abused and misused as a proof text for, 'the state of the dead', and other purposes for which it was never intended.

* 'Abraham's bosom' is a Babylonian myth, incorporated into Pharisaic teaching. (Josephus)
* Pharisaic teaching made void God's word as to the dead, which may be seen in (Psa. 6:5; Psa. 30:9; Psa. 31:17; Psa. 88:11; Psa.115:17;
Psa.146:4. Ecc.9:6, Ecc.9:10; Ecc.12:7. Isa.38:17-19, &c).
* It is not a parable, because it cites a notable example of the Pharisees' tradition.
* Pharisees believed that it was possible for the dead to communicate with the living; giving opportunity for 'spiritism', and 'clairvoyance' to thrive, which is greatly condemned in Scripture (e.g., Deut.18:9-12).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[David Lamb]

* 'Abraham's bosom' is a Babylonian myth, incorporated into Pharisaic teaching.


In Christ Jesus
Chris

I am surprised to read that you believe Abraham's bosom to be a Babylonian myth. Why would Babylonians be interested in Abraham and his bosom? If it was merely a Babylonian myth, why would Jesus use it in His teaching?

 

[charity]

The State of The Dead:-

(Psa 6:5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?'

(Psa 30:9) 'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?'

(Psa 31:17) 'Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.'

(Psa 88:11-12) 'Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?'

(Psa 115:17) 'The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.'

(Psa 146:3-4) 'Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.'

(Ecc 9:5-6) 'For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.'

(Ecc 9:10) 'Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.'

(Isa 38:17-19) 'Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.'

Praise God!

* The story of the rich man and Lazarus deny these Scriptures.
So Luke 16:19-31 is not teaching, (for our Lord would not deny the Scriptures)
but an exposure of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees,
by our Lord Jesus Christ.​

 

[charity]

I am surprised to read that you believe Abraham's bosom to be a Babylonian myth. Why would Babylonians be interested in Abraham and his bosom? If it was merely a Babylonian myth, why would Jesus use it in His teaching?

Hello @DavidLamb,

Where did The Lord Jesus use it in His teaching? Other than to expose the hypocrisy of the Pharisees (Luke 16:22), with the story of, 'The Rich Man and Lazarus', which was, in itself, not teaching, but an exposure of these men who sought His life, blasphemed the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:22, 28-29), and made void the word of God by their traditions (Matt. 15:6).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[David in NJ]

There was a certain rich man,
.. which was clothed in purple and fine linen,
.... and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,
.. which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
.... And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:
...... moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass,
.. that the beggar died,
.... and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
...... the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments,
.. and seeth Abraham afar off,
.... and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said,
.. Father Abraham, have mercy on me,
.... and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue;
...... for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said,
.. Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things,
.... and likewise Lazarus evil things:
...... but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
........ And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
.......... so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
............ neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said,
.. I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
.... For I have five brethren;
...... that he may testify unto them,
........ lest they also come into this place of torment.
.......... Abraham saith unto him,
............ They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham:
.. but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
.... And he said unto him,
...... If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
........ neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'
(Luke 16:19-31)

* The Lord Jesus Christ, said concerning the doctrine of the Pharisees, 'Beware' (Matt.16:6, Mar. 8:15, Luke 12:1). This was not said without reason, and subsequent experience has proved it to be a warning which has not been heeded. For these words of our Lord which were a form of irony, in which He exposes the unscriptural nature of Pharisaic doctrine and it's hypocritical nature in practice; has been used, abused and misused as a proof text for, 'the state of the dead', and other purposes for which it was never intended.

* 'Abraham's bosom' is a Babylonian myth, incorporated into Pharisaic teaching. (Josephus)
* Pharisaic teaching made void God's word as to the dead, which may be seen in (Psa. 6:5; Psa. 30:9; Psa. 31:17; Psa. 88:11; Psa.115:17;
Psa.146:4. Ecc.9:6, Ecc.9:10; Ecc.12:7. Isa.38:17-19, &c).
* It is not a parable, because it cites a notable example of the Pharisees' tradition.
* Pharisees believed that it was possible for the dead to communicate with the living; giving opportunity for 'spiritism', and 'clairvoyance' to thrive, which is greatly condemned in Scripture (e.g., Deut.18:9-12).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

So you are a pharisee then.......because you, like the pharisees, you object to the words of Christ

 

[David in NJ]

The State of The Dead:-

(Psa 6:5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?'

(Psa 30:9) 'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?'

(Psa 31:17) 'Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.'

(Psa 88:11-12) 'Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?'

(Psa 115:17) 'The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.'

(Psa 146:3-4) 'Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.'

(Ecc 9:5-6) 'For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.'

(Ecc 9:10) 'Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.'

(Isa 38:17-19) 'Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.'

Praise God!

* The story of the rich man and Lazarus deny these Scriptures.
So Luke 16:19-31 is not teaching, (for our Lord would not deny the Scriptures)
but an exposure of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees,
by our Lord Jesus Christ.​

You are attempting to establish a doctrine based upon limited knowledge that has since been expounded upon by the LORD and the Apostles and Revelation.

SAME error of the pharisees.

 

[charity]

So you are a pharisee then.......because you, like the pharisees, you object to the words of Christ

Hello @David in NJ:

I suggest you read what I actually said.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Phoneman777]

It proves that you do not understand.


This also proves you do not understand.

You STILL have yet to provide me with a verse that describes your "third category" of bodies that is supposedly in addition to Paul's "mortal" and "resurrection" found in 2 Cor. 5.

The only "evidence" you've provided is "disembodied bodies" - the VERY THING I told you people in the OP is found no where in Scripture!

 

[Phoneman777]

You are attempting to establish a doctrine based upon limited knowledge that has since been expounded upon by the LORD and the Apostles and Revelation.

SAME error of the pharisees.

Look, pal, the only person lacking knowledge in this discussion is YOU. I've asked you REPEATEDLY for the verse where a "third category" of body is mentioned in addition to the two Paul mentions, the mortal and resurrection.

You can't find one and you will NEVER find one, and your ridiculous angelic "disembodied bodies" argument proves nothing.

Prove me wrong...show me the verse that establishes this "third category"...or abandon the Immortal Soul lie.

 

[Hobie]

I fully agree the Rich Man represents the Jews...but Lazarus doesn't represent any Jew, but Gentiles. How?

If you remember that time when Jesus went up North, there was a Syro-Phoenician woman there that begged Him to heal her daughter...and finally, when Jesus said, "It's not meet (appropriate) to take the children's bread and cast it to dogs" the woman replied, "Truth, Lord...yet the DOGS eat of the CRUMBS that fall from their master's TABLE". Both Jesus and the woman knew exactly what she meant. She was saying, "Yes, Lord, I know the Jews are the masters...I know they sit at Your table of blessing, but in their hardness against You, they're allowing Your blessings to fall off the table, and though I'm a Gentile cut off from the blessings of God, I can eat the ones that fall off the table!"

While the Jews were "rich" in the promises, the covenants, the blessings, the lively oracles of God, Lazarus is said to be "outside" the gate, laying "full of sores" with the "dogs" and desiring the "crumbs" which fall from the Rich Man's "table". Yet, Lazarus winds up being "comforted" in Abraham's bosom.

This parable is yet another of several parables of warning to the Jews that if they don't repent, the tables will be turned on them....and that's exactly what happened. When they crucified Jesus and continued to oppose Christianity, finally God raised up Paul to carry the "Gospel to the Gentiles" where the Gentiles recieved all the Promises, the New Covenant, the New Testament, and the COMFORTER aka the Holy Ghost.

Some argue, "It can't be a parable because it contains the proper names "Lazarus" and "Abraham" - however, this argument is based purely in inference, not the evidence of Scripture. There is no Biblical prohibition against doing such. "Abraham" is used to establish the relationship Gentiles now have as "heirs" of Abrahams's promise (Galatians 3:29 KJV) and "Lazarus" is used so that in a short while after when the real Lazarus was raised from the dead and the Jews not only failed to repent, but went away to "take counsel on how they might destroy both Jesus and Lazarus" then the final words of this parable would ring true: "if they believe not Moses and the Prophets (aka Word of God) they will not believe, though one rose from the dead".

What say you, friend?

Here is a explanation which makes sense, by Larry Wilson in Wake Up America which really unpacks what the parable was about...

"The words of Jesus are deep and sometimes difficult to understand. He is called "The Word of God" in Scripture for good reason. His ability to put spiritual concepts into words has no equal. So, let us review the story from Scripture and then I will try to explain it: "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’" (Luke 16:19-31)

The first thing I like to do after reading any passage from Scripture is to ask myself a few questions. What is the setting of this passage? Who is talking to whom and under what circumstances? Is there a contest or conflict going on? In this particular story, who is the beggar named Lazarus? Who is the rich man who had five brothers? Were both people identifiable to the listeners? What effect was this story supposed to have upon the listeners? What did the listeners know then that we need to know now so that we can properly frame and understand the story? Ultimately, what is the focal point of the story? With these questions in mind, please consider the following:


Jesus told the story of the rich man and Lazarus in the presence of His disciples and a group of scoffing Pharisees. (Luke 16:14) He created this illustration because the Pharisees refused to believe anything that He said. They had seen many miracles and they still refused to believe He was the Messiah, so Jesus gave them a prophecy in the form of a story. As the story unfolds, Lazarus and the rich man die and their eternal rewards shock the listeners. The rich man goes to hell and the beggar goes to Abraham’s side. This was the exact opposite of what the listeners expected. Jesus did not confront the Pharisees with loud words nor did He engage them with 100 proof texts from the Old Testament proving that He was the Messiah. Rather, Jesus created a small bomb which He planted in their minds. The story would be memorable because well known people were used and the destiny of both was totally different than what the listeners expected. It is possible the Pharisees found this story a bit amusing at first, but the story probably made them angry once they figured out its meaning. So, Jesus created a story that begins with Middle East intrigue and it ends with a condemning knockout punch.

Errant Theology

Unlike the Sadducees, the Pharisees believed in a hereafter. They believed in eternal life and an eternally burning hell. They also believed that blessings and prosperity came from God as a reward for rigorous obedience to the law. (Philippians 3:6, Deuteronomy 28:1-14) One of their favorite texts was, "Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord." (Leviticus 18:5) The Pharisees also believed that poverty and illness were the results of sinning against God. "Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out. . . ." (Deuteronomy 27:26; 28:15-68) So lepers, beggars and poor people deserved to suffer. Simply stated, such people were under a curse because either they or their parents had sinned against God. (See John 9:2.) Since most Christians are not well informed on the Pharisees’ beliefs, they just read how Lazarus went to Abraham’s side and the high priest went to hell as though that was the way it should have been. Not so! The Pharisees believed just the opposite and this conflict in the story puzzled them.

Simon Lazarus

There is only one person in the Bible having the name Lazarus. He lived in Bethany. Most Christians have heard of him because he was the brother of Mary Magdalene and Martha. But many Christians do not know that Lazarus had a first name! His full name was Simon Lazarus and he was a leper. (John 12:1-3; Matthew 26:6) Jesus knew that His listeners were acquainted with Lazarus’ leprosy and this illness explains the presence of his sores in the story. Lazarus was reduced to a position of begging when he became leprous and the Pharisees had no sympathy. They regarded him as one condemned by God – a cursed sinner. (Note: Mary Magdalene, Lazarus’ sister, was the prostitute who Jesus rescued from stoning. (John 8:3-11) Whether she turned to prostitution to provide for herself, her brother and sister after Lazarus contracted leprosy is not known.)

Caiaphas

Jesus could not speak the name of the rich man with five brothers for a simple reason. It would have been considered blasphemy by the Pharisees to say anything less than honorable about him. (John 18:22) Nevertheless, everyone present knew who the rich man was because he wore purple and fine linen every day (an elegant robe), he lived large (spent a lot of money) and fared sumptiously (ate too much), and he was Israel’s religious leader. The rich man who had five brothers was the high priest of Israel, Caiaphus.

As a young man, Caiaphus married into a family of high priests. (John 18:13) Thus, Caiaphas became a son-in-law of Annas (a former high priest) and Caiaphas served as high priest in Jerusalem between A.D. 18 and A.D. 35. Because of marriage, Caiaphas had five brothers-in-law and each of these men eventually served terms as high priest in Jerusalem. Josephus wrote, "Now the report goes, that this elder Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons, who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and he had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. . . ." (Antiquities, book XX, chapter IX, paragraph 1, p.423, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 12th printing, 1974) Their names and years of service follow: Eleazar A.D. 16-17; Jonathan A.D. 36-37; Theophilus A.D. 37-41; Matthias A.D.41-43; Annas the Younger A.D. 62.....

 

[Hobie]

....Confrontation

At this point in our analysis of the story we can assemble four important facts:

1. The Pharisees knew about Lazarus and his leprosy, and they knew that the rich man was Caiaphas because he had five brothers.

2. The Pharisees did not know at the time the story was told, that Jesus would soon raise Lazarus from the dead. (John 11) Further, the Pharisees could not know that once Caiaphas learned about the resurrection of Lazarus, he would recommend to the Sanhedrin that Jesus be put to death. (John 18:14)

3. Since the Pharisees were convinced that eternal life came through rigorous obedience to the law, it had to be distressing for them to hear Jesus put the leper at Abraham’s side and their high priest in hell.

4. In the story, Abraham refused to honor the request of the rich man. The high priest asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his family so that they would not end up where he was and Abraham refused saying, "They have Moses and the prophets" (the Old Testament) to guide them. This feature of the story indicates that the Word of God has greater authority than a resurrected dead man.

So, what is the focal point of this story? Jesus predicted the Jews would not believe that He was the Messiah even if a dead man was resurrected. ". . . . [The rich man said] ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He [Father Abraham] said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’" (Luke 16:30,31, insertions mine)

Does this story "prove" there is an eternally burning hell? No. Jesus used the errant theology of the Pharisees to highlight the point that even if a dead man was brought to life, the high priest would not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus used their twisted logic about salvation and the hereafter to underscore the point that miracles will not soften or change a person’s heart. Only the Holy Spirit can bring transformation. This prophecy also reveals that a person’s mind and heart can be so blinded by religion that even if a dead person were raised up to speak to them, it would not make any difference.

Think about this. The testimony of Lazarus had no effect after he was raised from the dead. But Lazarus wasn’t the only resurrected voice affirming that Jesus was the Messiah! Look at these verses: "At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." (Matthew 27:51-53)

In closing, notice what Caiaphas and his associates did after they learned that Jesus had been resurrected: "When the chief priests had met with the elders [of Israel] and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, ‘You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.’ So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day." Matthew 28:12-15... Jesus just used the false teachings of the Pharisees to predict His rejection. The Bible confirms this prophecy was fulfilled. "He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him." (John 1:11)....http://www.wake-up.org/daystar/ds2007/May.htm

 

[Hobie]

The State of The Dead:-

(Psa 6:5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?'

(Psa 30:9) 'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?'

(Psa 31:17) 'Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.'

(Psa 88:11-12) 'Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?'

(Psa 115:17) 'The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.'

(Psa 146:3-4) 'Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.'

(Ecc 9:5-6) 'For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.'

(Ecc 9:10) 'Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.'

(Isa 38:17-19) 'Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.'

Praise God!

* The story of the rich man and Lazarus deny these Scriptures.
So Luke 16:19-31 is not teaching, (for our Lord would not deny the Scriptures)
but an exposure of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees,
by our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Very true, here is a very good study on this which I came across..
"This is an important claim by the critics in order to establish the idea that people go to heaven at death and that the wicked will burn in Hell forever. On the other hand, if the story is a parable, it cannot be taken as a literal event since parables are fictitious narratives established to teach moral truths. The fact that it is a parable, however, can be proven in a number of ways, the story itself is figurative. Abraham’s bosom is not heaven, the request to merely cool the tongue is not realistic, and neither is the ability to have a normal, logical and rational conversation. One would not expect a man tormented in the excruciating flames of fire to act this way. Even our senses will confirm that this is far from pragmatic.

There are numerous problems with taking the story as a literal event that actually took place:

• THE STORY IS OBVIOUSLY FIGURATIVE
  
  This is evident by the story itself. First, after his death, Lazarus went directly, not to heaven, but to Abraham’s. This is not what takes place at death. Second, the Rich Man’s request to merely cool the tongue is not realistic, neither is his ability to have a normal, logical and rational conversation. Under normal circumstances, someone being in fiery torments would be rolling on the floor in excruciating pain, trying at every turn to somehow relieve himself. This is not what is taking place in the story, and that is because it is not realistic.
• IT IS IN THE MIDST OF A SERIES OF PARABLES
  
  The story of the Rich man and Lazarus follow a few parables and is followed by even more parables (Luke 12:16, 13:6, 16:1, 19:11-12, 20:9). It would seem rather strange to interrupt this flow of parables, give a true story, to then continue to teach parables. The more consistent and reasonable conclusion is that it is a parable just like those surrounding it.
• IT BEGINS LIKE THE PARABLES SURROUNDING IT
  
  Each one of those surrounding parables initiate with the familiar formula, “a certain…” Notice:

Luke 16:19 – There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen…

Luke 12:16 – He spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought…

Luke 13:6 – He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard.

Luke 16:1 – There was a certain rich man, which had a steward.

Luke 19:11-12 – He added and spake a parable… A certain nobleman went into a far country…

Luke 20:9 – Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard.

• A LITERAL RENDERING CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE

If this is a story of an actual event that took place, it would supposedly prove that dead people do not stay in their grave at death, and that they are actually still alive elsewhere. But that contradicts the scriptures, which say that the “dead know nothing” (Eccl. 9:5), that their “thoughts perish” (Psa. 146:4), and that people stay in a state of “sleep” awaiting the resurrection in the last days ( 1 Thess. 4:13-15). Additionally, though the wicked will indeed end up in flames of fire in the end, it is actually God’s people that live in that fire, because it is the very fire of God’s presence:

Isaiah 33:14-15 – The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil. (cf. Deut. 9:3, Heb. 12:29, Rev. 20:9).

And while the greedy rich man was alive and cognitive, the Bible says that the wicked will actually be completely destroyed. It uses terminology such as “perish,” be “burned up,” will “melt away,” be “consumed into smoke,” and be reduced to “ashes” (Psa. 68:2, 37:20, Mal. 4:1, 3), while the righteous are able to bear the presence of the “sun of righteousness” (Mal. 4:2). Consequently, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus has to be understood as just that, a parable… a fictitious story containing an important moral lesson.

JESUS UTILIZED A COMMONLY HELD BELIEF

This may come as a surprise to most, but the story is actually gave a modified version of a similar story that already existed among the Jewish leaders. According to the Talmud, the ancient sages interpreted the story of Hannah in 1 Samuel 1 using the following parable:

“A parable: To what is this matter like? To a king who made a feast for his servants, and a poor man came and stood by the door and said to them, Give me a bite, and no one took any notice of him, so he forced his way into the presence of the king and said to him, Your Majesty, out of all the feast which thou hast made, is it so hard in thine eyes to give me one bite?”(1)

At another section of the Talmud, we find this reference:

“Today he is sitting in the lap of Abraham our forefather, since he has just been circumcised. He added: ‘Today Rav Yehuda was born in Babylonia.'”(2)

And in a separate, yet also Jewish document, we read this:

Let us not fear him who thinks he is killing us, for great is the struggle of the soul and the danger of eternal torment lying before those who transgress the commandment of God. Therefore let us put on the full armor of self-control, which is divine reason. For if we so die, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will welcome us, and all the fathers will praise us.”(3)

Note the similarities between all these documents and the story Jesus gave in Luke 16, and note also how the first reference above calls it a parable. One wonders why Jesus would use a story that was familiar to them and which was obviously figurative. Wouldn’t that cause further confusion? It only causes confusion when one does not continue reading in the Gospels. I believe the modified version of this story, especially Jesus’ insertion of an individual named Lazarus, answers this question. The king in the story parallels the rich man, and Jesus was at this moment addressing rich individuals (Luke 16:14). Jesus takes their own story to demonstrate their hypocrisy and ultimate result, while simultaneously predicting that a real Lazarus would come back from the grave. The later resurrection of Lazarus proved the story false since Lazarus was described as being “asleep” (John 11:11-14) and not alive in Abraham’s bosom. Thus, the use of this story and its subsequent fulfillment in a real Lazarus actually proves the falsity of the doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

 

[ElieG12]

Hezekiah, a king of Judah, fell gravely ill. Jehovah sent the prophet Isaiah with the message of his impending death. Upon receiving this news, he wept bitterly and earnestly prayed to Jehovah, recounting all the righteous deeds he had accomplished throughout his life. The prophet had not yet left the building when he received a new announcement from God, compelling him to return and inform the king that Jehovah had listened to his prayer and granted him an additional 15 years to live. Hezekiah was healed of his sickness and continued to live. In Is. 38:18,19 we read some words that the king said to Jehovah:

Is. 38:18, 19 (CJB: Complete Jewish Bible)
“Sh’ol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those descending to the pit cannot hope for your truth. The living, the living—they can thank you, as I do today; Fathers will make their children know about your faithfulness."

Evidently, King Hezekiah did not believe that when he died he would be reunited with Abraham and taken into his bosom. He knew that dead in Sheol, where all dead people are symbolically, cannot praise God in their unconscious state.

 

[David in NJ]

You STILL have yet to provide me with a verse that describes your "third category" of bodies that is supposedly in addition to Paul's "mortal" and "resurrection" found in 2 Cor. 5.

The only "evidence" you've provided is "disembodied bodies" - the VERY THING I told you people in the OP is found no where in Scripture!

"disembodied bodies" - the VERY THING I told you people in the OP is found no where in Scripture!

OOPS!!! You forgetteth much...............

Hezekiah, a king of Judah, fell gravely ill. Jehovah sent the prophet Isaiah with the message of his impending death. Upon receiving this news, he wept bitterly and earnestly prayed to Jehovah, recounting all the righteous deeds he had accomplished throughout his life. The prophet had not yet left the building when he received a new announcement from God, compelling him to return and inform the king that Jehovah had listened to his prayer and granted him an additional 15 years to live. Hezekiah was healed of his sickness and continued to live. In Is. 38:18,19 we read some words that the king said to Jehovah:

Is. 38:18, 19 (CJB: Complete Jewish Bible)
“Sh’ol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those descending to the pit cannot hope for your truth. The living, the living—they can thank you, as I do today; Fathers will make their children know about your faithfulness."

Evidently, King Hezekiah did not believe that when he died he would be reunited with Abraham and taken into his bosom. He knew that dead in Sheol, where all dead people are symbolically, cannot praise God in their unconscious state.

OT limited knowledge that the FATHER held back until the LORD came to earth.

#1 - You must believe the words of CHRIST or you will remain in sin and death - John 3:16-21

#2 - You must believe who CHRIST is or you will remain in sin and death - John chapter 1 and chapter 8

#3 - You must go to the LORD JESUS CHRIST and honor HIM the SAME as you would honor the FATHER.

Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.
He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

 

[David in NJ]

Very true, here is a very good study on this which I came across..
"This is an important claim by the critics in order to establish the idea that people go to heaven at death and that the wicked will burn in Hell forever. On the other hand, if the story is a parable, it cannot be taken as a literal event since parables are fictitious narratives established to teach moral truths. The fact that it is a parable, however, can be proven in a number of ways, the story itself is figurative. Abraham’s bosom is not heaven, the request to merely cool the tongue is not realistic, and neither is the ability to have a normal, logical and rational conversation. One would not expect a man tormented in the excruciating flames of fire to act this way. Even our senses will confirm that this is far from pragmatic.

There are numerous problems with taking the story as a literal event that actually took place:

• THE STORY IS OBVIOUSLY FIGURATIVE
  
  This is evident by the story itself. First, after his death, Lazarus went directly, not to heaven, but to Abraham’s. This is not what takes place at death. Second, the Rich Man’s request to merely cool the tongue is not realistic, neither is his ability to have a normal, logical and rational conversation. Under normal circumstances, someone being in fiery torments would be rolling on the floor in excruciating pain, trying at every turn to somehow relieve himself. This is not what is taking place in the story, and that is because it is not realistic.
• IT IS IN THE MIDST OF A SERIES OF PARABLES
  
  The story of the Rich man and Lazarus follow a few parables and is followed by even more parables (Luke 12:16, 13:6, 16:1, 19:11-12, 20:9). It would seem rather strange to interrupt this flow of parables, give a true story, to then continue to teach parables. The more consistent and reasonable conclusion is that it is a parable just like those surrounding it.
• IT BEGINS LIKE THE PARABLES SURROUNDING IT
  
  Each one of those surrounding parables initiate with the familiar formula, “a certain…” Notice:

Luke 16:19 – There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen…

Luke 12:16 – He spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought…

Luke 13:6 – He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard.

Luke 16:1 – There was a certain rich man, which had a steward.

Luke 19:11-12 – He added and spake a parable… A certain nobleman went into a far country…

Luke 20:9 – Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard.

Re-Cap of TRUTH
#1 - JESUS finished his parable in verse 13
#2- JESUS begins LITERAL dialogue in verse 14 and continues in REAL Literal dialogue to verse 31.
#3- The Place where Abraham was, at that time, LITERAL
#4 - JESUS uses real names for REAL Literal persons
#5 - JESUS did not name the rich man for REAL LITERAL REASON

 

[Phoneman777]

OOPS!!! You forgetteth much...............

You KNOW there are only TWO TYPES of bodies that God's Bible knows about, and yet you INSIST the people in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus have a third category of body...we call that "stubborn willful ignorance".

 

[David in NJ]

You KNOW there are only TWO TYPES of bodies that God's Bible knows about, and yet you INSIST the people in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus have a third category of body...we call that "stubborn willful ignorance".

Good Afternoon,

Elohim is multidimensional and BEYOND our comprehension.

Genesis 1:26 - "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Hebrews 4:12 - Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

2 Peter 1:14 - For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth.
Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent,
to stir you up by reminding you, knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.
Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.


2 Corinthians 5:1-8
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed,
but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
For we walk by faith, not by sight.
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

we call that "stubborn willful ignorance".

And some claim Jesus is a liar...

In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus said... There was a "certain" rich man, And there was a "certain" beggar named Lazarus

Seems like more and more people are claiming that Jesus is a liar... obviously because they are listening to the devil rather than the Holy Spirit.

This is common in the last days and is part of the falling away that God's Word teach would happen in the last days haze

 

[Phoneman777]

And some claim Jesus is a liar...

In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus said... There was a "certain" rich man, And there was a "certain" beggar named Lazarus

Seems like more and more people are claiming that Jesus is a liar... obviously because they are listening to the devil rather than the Holy Spirit.

This is common in the last days and is part of the falling away that God's Word teach would happen in the last days haze

Are you saying that anyone who denies the angels are coming with weedeaters to kill the crabgrass in an overgrown field calls Jesus a liar?