Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

Doug said:

[Rev 2:7 KJV] 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Here is why I think the church of Ephesus is a Jewish church. a believing remnant

[Rev 22:14 KJV] 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Israel had to keep his commandments to enter the city

[Rev 12:17 KJV] 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The remnant of Israel keeps the commandments

Click to expand...

Every time your error is exposed you duck around the evidence. Spiritual Israelite quoted 1 John 5:1-5: “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?”

Listen to Jesus in John 14:15: "If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

Doug said:

[Exo 19:5-6 KJV] 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

[Isa 61:6 KJV] 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: [men] shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

He is speaking to Israel

Click to expand...

1 Peter 2:9-10 declares, whilst addressing the New Testament Church of Jesus Christ, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter takes this teaching, which was describing the Israel of God in the Old Testament, directly from Exodus 19, and applies it to the people of God in the New Testament. In doing so, he explains the continuity between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament.

Paul in agreement with Peter addresses the same OT reference and applies it to Gentile conversion. He states in Romans 9:22-26, “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee (Hosea 2:23), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.”

In perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy, the Gentiles have been brought into full union and communion with God, and have become a part of the spiritual seed of the righteous, through Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The spiritual blessings and promises that were therefore nearly exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been imparted to the Gentiles by faith. The Church is:

1. The “children of the living God.”
2. His “beloved” possession.
3. And are intimately known by God as “my people.”

The Israel of God is not therefore restricted to the physical earthly nation of Israel or any other physical nation, as of the flesh, but rather to the spiritual seed of Abraham – the spiritual Israel that is born from above.

This people that Paul is referring to here, who are divinely called, which God said, “were not my people” and which are now loved “which was not beloved” are the elect Gentiles. Paul, referring to Deuteronomy 32:21, in Romans 10:19-21, supports this gracious fulfilment.

Let us remind ourselves of the Old Testament text in Exodus 19:5-6: “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

Far from restricting the “chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people” description to the remnant elect of the nation of Israel, Peter expands it out to embrace the many Gentile believers in this new covenant period. To support his reasoning, he employs Hosea 1:10 which predicted the enlightening of the Gentiles, and their integration into the people of God. This is demonstrated in verse 10, where he testifies that the mainly Gentile Church who were once “not a people, but are now the people of God” had now been integrated into the Israel of God. He reinforces this point, telling us that they “which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Hosea 1:10 reads: “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.”

Peter describes the Church as “a chosen generation” (or a chosen race), “a royal priesthood” and “an holy nation.” He related this to all believers, irrespective of natural race. This shows us the spiritual nature of the Israeli designation in the New Testament.

Paul, agrees. However, he employs Deuteronomy 32:21, in Romans 10:19-21, to make this see them point: “Moses saith, I will provoke you (natural Israel) to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation (the mainly Gentile New Testament Church) I will anger you.”

He continues, supporting his line of reasoning, this time referring to Isaiah 65:1, saying, “Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me (the Gentiles). But to Israel (according to the flesh) he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”

Doug said:

To the seven churches which are Jewish churches I will give you examples along the way

hold on

Click to expand...

This is total nonsense! It is time to get real. Seriously. It is hard to take your posts serious.

Doug said:

maybe I am missing something

Click to expand...

You are! A lot!

Doug said:

I dont have scripture that directly says paradise is Abraham's bosom .........scripture has to be compared to scripture to form opinion....you are free to disagree with mine, but I will state my opinions....scripture doesnt come right out and state everything

Click to expand...

Sadly, this totally sums up your theology. You exhort us to compare Scripture with Scripture yet you admit you have no Scripture that teaches your error. So there is no Scripture to support Scripture with because as you admit it is all your opinions. All we have is your personal imaginations that you are wanting us to align with. This is an insane foundation to build theology on.

Doug said:

The disciples never got out of Israel plus they abdicated their command to Paul by deciding to just go to the Jews Gal 2:9

it is common sense that a nation defines a geographic area comprised of people.....they would be baptizing people

Israel was commanded to be baptized already by John and Peter and others

The disciples in Acts 1:8 were given power by the Holy Ghost to be witnesses

Click to expand...

But the nations were instructed to keep the commands of Christ like the Jews.

Doug said:

I was saying Rev 5:10 was that the believing remnant of Israel ....they were the church Paul persecuted

True Israel is the believing remnant of faith

Click to expand...

That is us! The Apostle declares in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit.”

The Holy Spirit shows the change that occurred under the new covenant where physical circumcision has been superseded by just spiritual circumcision through salvation. To admit this would force you to change your theology. But the change is so clear and indisputable. Your rebuttal is just you repeating your own opinions - as if that is a valid argument. It is not. That seems to be a pattern in your posts. Scripture overrides your speculations.

Romans 2:25-29 is quite powerful in that it changes the nature and scope of what a real Jew (the “circumcision”) and a real Gentile (the “uncircumcision”) are in God’s eyes. God takes these common natural terms and spiritualises them, and in doing so redefines the whole argument of true identity.

Throughout the New Testament, the natural ethnic title “uncircumcision” (normally used to describe a Gentile) is amazingly used to describe the unbelieving Jew. Also, the natural ethnic title “circumcision” (normally used to describe a natural Jew) is amazingly used to describe the believing Gentile. This would have been anathema to the unbelieving Jews of Paul’s day. It would have been the greatest insult to a Jew.

He is comparing those that are spiritually circumcised (representing all believers – both Jew and Gentile) to those that are spiritually non-circumcised (representing unbelievers – both Jew and Gentile). This is essentially a saved or lost issue, which keeps coming up repeatedly in Scripture. That is the only 2 peoples in this world, not Jew or Gentile.

It would be helpful to categorise the parties in view. Let us illustrate.

(A) Physical circumcision
(B) Physical non-circumcision
(C) Spiritual circumcision of the heart
(D) Spiritual non-circumcision of the heart

What Paul is saying is that A and B means nothing. Salvation is not a natural matter. He is emphasizing here as he continually does in his writings, C and D are what it is all about. This is how God truly views all men. Nothing else matters. He shows that C refers to all irrespective of race, nationality or status that accept Christ. He especially highlights how the Gentile who is by nature a B has been brought into this chosen grouping (C) through the blood of Jesus. He equally shows that D refers to all irrespective of race, nationality or status who reject Christ. He especially highlights the fact there will be those of A that equally belong to D and therefore damned. Nothing could be simpler.

In short, he shows that there will be those that are one thing in the natural and the opposite in the spiritual. Natural Jews can be spiritually classed as Gentiles (or heathens) and natural Gentiles can be spiritually classed as Jews. Of course, a natural Jew can also be a spiritual Jew through Christ, and a natural Gentile can be spiritually classed as a Gentile (or heathen) through refusing Christ.

Doug said:

I am not inclined to get into a book I have not studied extensively

Click to expand...

You have been acting as if you are an expert on this book in this past few weeks, when you have no clue as to its nature, structure and symbolism.

Doug said:

It could well be the seven churches included Gentiles but that doesnt negate them being a Jewish church (believing remnant).........only the remnant can say they are kings and priests;''''''''''''''''''this is what I said

You say the 7 churches were composed of Gentiles fine but I am saying they could all be primarily Jewish

They say they are kings and priests in Rev 1:6............[Exo 19:5-6 KJV] 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.............................this was said to the children of Israel.......so it is more likely to be Jewish churches since Gentiles cant say they are kings and priests

Click to expand...

We have been grafted into the remnant of believing Israel. We are now one with them. There is no racial distinction any more or apartheid (that you are fixated with). God looks as the Church as one flock, one fold and one people.

Doug said:

It could well be the seven churches included Gentiles but that doesnt negate them being a Jewish church (believing remnant).........only the remnant can say they are kings and priests;''''''''''''''''''this is what I said

You say the 7 churches were composed of Gentiles fine but I am saying they could all be primarily Jewish

They say they are kings and priests in Rev 1:6............[Exo 19:5-6 KJV] 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.............................this was said to the children of Israel.......so it is more likely to be Jewish churches since Gentiles cant say they are kings and priests

Click to expand...

It does not say this anywhere. You force your Zionist views on text after text. Hello! We have entered the new covenant. The old is gone forever. Race means nothing today. It is all about grace. The Gospel is open equally to Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no racial favoritism any more. Thank God!

• We have moved from the old to the new covenant. The rules have therefore changed.
• We are not going back to racial favor.
• People who reject Christ are not God's chosen or His children, they are children of the devil.

The only way your arguments are sustained are by removing the whole New Testament teaching on this subject from off the table.

There has only ever been one people of God. We have been grafted into faithful Israel. You are trying to make 2 out of 1, when Scriptures clearly make 1 out of 2. I prefer Scripture to your theories.

Romans 2:25 tells us: “if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.”

Paul explains in Romans 9:8: “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Romans 10:12 states: “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”

I Corinthians 7:17 declares, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

Colossians 3:11 declares, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Galatians 3:28 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Galatians 5:2 declares, “if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

Race means nothing any more – forever, it is all of grace. Being natural means nothing when it comes to salvation. That is a myth that conflicts with New Testament teaching.

The fact is, there is (and only has been) one people of God from the beginning. Whilst they were largely found within the nation of Israel before the cross, that was broadened out after the cross to embrace all nations. Race means nothing under the new covenant. The New Testament outlines clearly and repeatedly that "there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.

Doug said:

[Jhn 20:16-17 KJV] 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

After his resurrection Christ told Mary he wasn't ascended yet

[Luk 24:51 KJV] 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

This is when he ascended

Yes well said

as far as I know Abraham's bosom .......the good side of the gulf

I dont think he went to hell either

no he went to the good side of Abraham's bosom

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades. according to you
The verse just does not say this,,,,,,I could be wrong and it does but I see no scripture to think so

again I see no supporting scripture

I think Satan held us captive to his will and Christ destroyed that power

Well said,,,,I just dont think he emptied Abraham's bosom but he released us from the Devil's power in taking us captive to him

Click to expand...

Mark 3:11, 23-27 records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes (during His earthly ministry) dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Isaiah 61:1-2: “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn.”

It is no coincidence that Jesus read this Old Testament passage as His first message. This was deliberate and this was providential. It set the stage for what was about to come. He set out a marker! Isaiah 61:1 is Christ’s mission statement. Here He laid all His cards on the table. Here He confirmed His assignment. This embodied who He was and what drove Him during His ministry. This was Christ’s earthly task. This was His agenda. This is what He come to achieve. This was His goal. Jesus come to set man free. He was a liberator.

• He didn’t want to leave man in a spiritual prison.
• He didn’t want to leave him in darkness.
• He didn’t want him to be a trophy of Satan’s assaults.
• He didn’t want him to be broken-hearted.

These captives that He spoke about who were about to be liberated were you and me. His mission included binding up the brokenhearted.

Ephesians 4:8 says, “When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive.”

Hades had no more hold upon the Old Testament redeemed because the penalty had been paid for sin, and therefore death, Hades and Satan were stripped of their ugly power over them.

In an article on John Piper’s Desiring God website, fellow of theology at New Saint Andrews College Joe Rigney teaches: “Following his death for sin, then, Jesus journeys to Hades, to the city of death, and rips its gates off the hinges. He liberates Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, John the Baptist, and the rest of the Old Testament faithful, ransoming them from the power of Sheol … They had waited there for so long, not having received what was promised, so that their spirits would be made perfect along with the saints of the new covenant (Hebrews 11:39–40; 12:23).

He continues: “After his resurrection, Jesus ascends to heaven and brings the ransomed dead with him, so that now paradise is no longer down near the place of torment, but is up in the third heaven, the highest heaven, where God dwells.”

David Wilkerson said: “Jesus plundered the devil at Calvary, stripping him of all power and authority. When Christ rose victorious from the grave, he led an innumerable host of redeemed captives out of Satan's grasp. And that blood-bought procession is still marching on.”

Barnes Notes on the Bible says: "Man was held by Satan as a prisoner. His chains were around him. Christ rescued the captive prisoner, and designed to make him a part of his triumphal procession into heaven, that thus the victory might be complete."

Doug said:

If you say 1 Peter is to all believers then please show me where all are called a priesthood

Click to expand...

1 Peter 2:9-10 declares, whilst addressing the New Testament Church of Jesus Christ, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy (Hosea 2:23).”

Peter describes the Church as “a chosen generation” (or a chosen race), “a royal priesthood” and “an holy nation.” He relates this to all believers, irrespective of natural race. This shows us the spiritual nature of the Israeli designation in the New Testament.

Peter explains the continuity between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament, showing the people in view to be the New Testament Church (consisting both of Jews and Gentiles). In fact, he applies this mainly to Gentiles. To support his reasoning, he employs Hosea 2:23 which predicted the enlightening of the Gentiles, and their integration into the people of God. This is demonstrated in verse 23, where he testifies that the mainly Gentile Church who were once “not a people, but are now the people of God” had now been integrated into the Israel of God. He reinforces this point, telling us that they “which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Hosea 2:23 reads: “And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.”