Yes for whom?
I'll give you a hint:
"Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth."
The eternal inheritance is conditional.
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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I'll give you a hint:
"Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth."
The eternal inheritance is conditional.
Yes, all in all, the sheep are from among the Jews and Gentiles. It is what we come to know in John 10 and other scriptures.
Just insisting, and repeatedly saying, that anyone can become a sheep, without refuting my post regarding the John 10 reference passages, does not make it the truth.
<<<Anyone can become a "sheep" as evidenced by whoever enters through Christ is his.>>>
That is exactly what my post in the quote box have refuted.
I sincerely encourage you to consider taking a closer look and study of the John 10 passages together with the revelation of Jesus in Mt.15:24. Matthew 15:24 is critically significant if one were to have a correct understanding of the sheep metaphor in John 10. I also encourage giving a closer look and study about the “children of promise” that Paul was talking about in Romans 9 and Galatians 4.
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For whom? Are you still asking the obvious?
The promises, the apostle Paul said, were to Abraham and his Seed, Jesus Christ.
Our issue was if Abraham was chosen not only for some purpose but also for salvation. You contend that he was not chosen for salvation. I contend he was. I argued for my view in that God made Abraham a promise which extend to his seed. It was an unconditional promise to him and his seed. It was a promise of an eternal inheritance. It was a promise and God’s promise to Abraham and his seed, He most certainly will fulfill and accomplish. His promise depends not on anything nor on anyone for its fulfillment but entirely depends on God, and is of grace.
So, if God surely will bring about what promise He had made to Abraham and his seed, does not that then make of Abraham as having been chosen for salvation when the promise is of an eternal inheritance?
That God will surely bring about what He promised Abraham and his seed, puts aside the issue that you bring up concerning the promise, that it is conditional, and even refutes it. Further, even if we take for granted, for the sake of argument, that the promise is conditional, the fact that it is God who had promised and who will definitely and surely bring it about, not even a thousand conditions required of Abraham and his seed to do, will prevent God from fulfilling His promise. That means, if Abraham have to have faith, God will give him faith. If Abraham have to believe, God will work that out in him that he comes to believe with all his heart, soul, and mind. And God will and can do that without forcing Abraham to believe against his will. That is a very simple matter for God to do.
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By His Knowledge He shall Justify Many !
Isa 53:11
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Those He knows, He Justifies, why, because He shall bear their sins or iniquities. But those He says He never knew, as per Matt 7:23
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
He never bear their iniquities. So His death was limited to those He knew, those given to Him of the Father. Jn 6:37
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;171
Isa 53:11
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Those He knows, He Justifies, why, because He shall bear their sins or iniquities. But those He says He never knew, as per Matt 7:23
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
He never bear their iniquities. So His death was limited to those He knew, those given to Him of the Father. Jn 6:37
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;171
So, what then, do you make of Romans 5:8?
It should be clear that Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I agree that God is partial to his chosen people in that he grants them his favor, grace, mercy etc. with regard to salvation. But God is impartial in the sense that his favor is not based on social status, economic status, political affiliation, or any other human category.
In my view, God is not partial. For his choosing of His people is consistent with His nature, which being partial isn’t part of. For being partial is inconsistent with justice, and God is not unjust. And that said of His choosing, His granting His chosen people of His favor, grace, mercy, etc. is not being partial.
It does not, no matter what sense I take “partial” to be, come to me as something I could take as godly character.
Tong
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
2Corinthians 5:18
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
@Tong2020 @Addy
Well said, and to add to your points, Christ died for our reconciliation, bringing the world an offer of peace with God. In this context, peace means "free of hostilities." As we know, reconciliation takes the cooperation of both parties. I picture it this way. God and man were standing back to back, neither one facing the other, separated, detached, estranged even hostile.
The death of Christ on the cross allowed God to turn and face mankind. Thus, the death of Jesus was for "the whole world", giving the world an opportunity for it to reconcile with God. But in order to be reconciled to God, each man and/or woman, individually in turn, must turn and face God in repentance and contrition.
In the passage above, Paul understands the death of Christ in terms of God, in Christ, reconciling the world to himself. At the same time though, God is working through the apostles, appealing to us that we should around to face him, and make peace with him. Both parties must make peace with each other.
Contrary to St. Anselm, Christ's death on the cross was NOT payment for sins, or even as St. Anselm reasoned, satisfaction of God's honor. No, as Paul wrote, Christ's death on the cross was that one thing, which God would accept, to appease his wrath and bring reconciliation between God and man. Our sins are forgiven, not paid. Grace is offered to those who take the appropriate reconciliatory action: face the truth about myself as a sinner: become aware that God has a grievance; come to fully understand the problem; and take the appropriate actions requisite of reconciliation; conviction, confession, contrition, repentance, and prayer.
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
@Tong2020 @Addy
Well said, and to add to your points, Christ died for our reconciliation, bringing the world an offer of peace with God. In this context, peace means "free of hostilities." As we know, reconciliation takes the cooperation of both parties. I picture it this way. God and man were standing back to back, neither one facing the other, separated, detached, estranged even hostile.
The death of Christ on the cross allowed God to turn and face mankind. Thus, the death of Jesus was for "the whole world", giving the world an opportunity for it to reconcile with God. But in order to be reconciled to God, each man and/or woman, individually in turn, must turn and face God in repentance and contrition.
In the passage above, Paul understands the death of Christ in terms of God, in Christ, reconciling the world to himself. At the same time though, God is working through the apostles, appealing to us that we should around to face him, and make peace with him. Both parties must make peace with each other.
Contrary to St. Anselm, Christ's death on the cross was NOT payment for sins, or even as St. Anselm reasoned, satisfaction of God's honor. No, as Paul wrote, Christ's death on the cross was that one thing, which God would accept, to appease his wrath and bring reconciliation between God and man. Our sins are forgiven, not paid. Grace is offered to those who take the appropriate reconciliatory action: face the truth about myself as a sinner: become aware that God has a grievance; come to fully understand the problem; and take the appropriate actions requisite of reconciliation; conviction, confession, contrition, repentance, and prayer.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I understand. But as a sympathetic reader, I attempt to allow the author to use their words with the definitions they assign to them. My answer to @Wrangler assumed the definition of "partial" he or she seem to assign to that word, i.e. more akin to election, choice. I think the point is this. God's work among mankind is not restricted to the general case of philanthropy. The Bible reveals that in terms of his deliverance and salvation, God is selective in his decision whom to bless with salvation. One could argue, for instance (I don't) that God is partial to those who believe in his son.
This is certainly a worthy discussion for another time.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I don't see anywhere in scripture where God offers us salvation. I believe this doctrine to be an urban myth. Rather, the Bible describes salvation as something that God does for those whom he chooses. Salvation begins and ends with God; we are merely the victims of his mercy.
As the passage says, everything is locked up under the control of sin. Therefore, a person can't believe until God has released that individual from the control of sin. Release comes before faith.
My view is a little bit different. That fallen unregenerate man could and would turn about face towards God, only if granted or given knowledge and faith by God. Such is a working of God on the fallen unregenerate man. And that, while Christ atoned for the whole world appeasing God that His wrath does not come upon all mankind, as it did in the days of Noah, saving them all in that sense and regard, not all were given by the Father to the Son to raise up unto eternal life at the last days.
In my view, in this present age and time, the giving of knowledge involves the preaching of the gospel by the Holy Spirit through the Christian by the testimony of first the scriptures and his Christ-like character, life and good works, and the collective testimony of the church. It involves the quickening of the person by the Holy Spirit which enables him to hear, which is the giving of understanding of the word preached. It also involves the conviction and persuasion by the Holy Spirit in various ways and means, according to His wisdom and timing, of the person, which is the giving of a new heart, a heart that is humble and contrite, bringing him to repentance toward God. It also involves the giving of faith to the person which gives him the power to believe in God and in Jesus Christ whom God had sent. All that, if you noticed, is God’s work.
Regarding the death of Christ for those whom the Father had given Him to raise up at the last day, it is also in a sense, a payment, better yet, a ransom. This is coming from scriptures that says that Jesus Christ gave his life as a ransom for many (Mt.20:28).
cc. @Addy
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I don't think you know what justice means. Justice means you are open to weighing the evidence unequally, that more weight is given to one side of the debate or the other. Justice, therefore, goes against Equality, as our society currently perverts it. "Black Lives Matter" is a partial statement.
Jesus tells us he was given all authority. This is partial treatment.
Apparently, we have different take of not only what partial is but also of what justice is. That being the case, the argument and debate necessary shifts to that. However, I think it wise not to go to that. So, I will let that be.
As far as I am concerned, being “partial” come to me as something I could not take as godly character.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I understand. I've thought a lot about what is dreadfully missing in our society: loyalty.
You use the word partial while I prefer to directly attack the main language of evil today, Equality. Equality is evil for it holds unequal things as equal. Without deferring to inequality (or partiality, as you say), how could one discern right from wrong? The truth is partial.
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who change darkness into light
and light into darkness,
who change bitter into sweet
and sweet into bitter!
Isaiah 5:20
I understand. And yes, perhaps @Wrangler assigns a different sense and meaning to “partial”. That of course makes a lot of difference.
Tong
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High Premise
New Member
Some were Damnationist's, most were Universalist, until around the 5th century - when the Demonic Doctrines began to seep in from the love of money. The Creator of the Universe is a Universalist, which is the big bottomline.
Says the Bible nowhere. But I can find you tons of verses that put belief before salvation.
Show me some first century universalists, and not some cult, but men in the church.
You totally skipped over the fact that Moses didn't enter the promised land because of his sin. Gods promises to a nation doesn't automatically apply to individuals choices. If that were the case, Israel, God's sheep would have never rebeled.
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