Wrangler
Well-Known Member
God is partial. The premise of your entire line of reasoning is flawed. God is partial to His chosen people.
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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God is partial. The premise of your entire line of reasoning is flawed. God is partial to His chosen people.
Thank you for taking the time to answer... I will ponder what you have said... rather than write quickly like I did when I responded to the question What is propitiation. Bless you.
Perhaps. But I am referring to what I read and understand from the scriptures. That God’s hardening of Pharaoh’s heart mainly has to do in having or rendering him to not yield and let go of Israel until all the signs and wonders that God had planned to do and show to the people, had all been done, and bring about and accomplish all that He intended on purpose and by His own sovereign will, power, and doing.
If “hardening”, as your pastor define it, is the wringing out what is already there, what is it that is already there in Pharaoh’s heart that God will wring out? Also, what is the need for the wringing out?
Tong
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LOL, those UR folks that I have argued with for years would get a kick out of that!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
This is the generic truth of the Bible, applicable to every book, chapter and verse. As my Bible Study leader was fond of saying, 'It's all about the glory of God.'
Sin. Pride. The thinking a man is God.
"Need" is a communist way of looking at the world. Pharaoh was under Judgment. Wringing out, hardening Pharoah's heart was used by God to bring glory to himself. Said differently, as you say, to show His own sovereign will, power, and doing.
IMO, God was toying with Pharaoh as no man is a match for God. The 10 plagues were not 9 failed attempts by God. And this leads into one of the things about God I am struggling with now; the notion of 'God Speed.' I once thought that meant ASAP but I struggle with impatience. God's timing is not my timing. My wife and I often lament that Christ has not already come.
If I were God - again, the Original Sin of which I share - I would have already put an end to this fallen world. But I know I am not as forgiving, merciful or patient as the almighty.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
One thing that frustrates me about talking to religious people is their tendency to ask a question that was JUST answered. God is partial to his chosen people. What part of this do you not get? (My guess, is you have fallen victim to the Evil of Equality, which is why I started a thread about it.)
In today's devotional reading, Numbers 30, God reveals his partiality to women. Women under patriarchal authority enjoy special protection. The NSRV Study note specifically says this. These women who make foolish vows, are exempted if their patriarch invalidates it. Men enjoy no such protection.
In the booklet, Know Your Bible, it summarizes each book in 10 words or less. Genesis is summarized with God chooses a special people. By definition, this is inequality, or partiality, for special is not the same as equal. Inequality, or partiality as you like to say, is seen throughout Scripture! Heaven and Hell are not equal. The damned and the saved are not equal. What part of the basic message of Scripture do you not get? Antonymns are not synonyms. Holy is not equal to unholy. The holy, those set aside by God, get preferential consideration, consideration that is partial.
Peter, an emissary of Jesus the Anointed One, to God’s chosen people ...
1 Peter 1:1 (Voice)
High Premise
New Member
There is no person more afraid, than an Eternal Damnationist, of an Intelligent Universalist.
Ever wonder why they ban universalist's on forums? What are they so afraid of? It's not like the Damnationists are out there witnessing to 'save' people from endless torture, and if they do, very little.
Do you really think GOD would leave the eternal destiny of his creation up to whether a bunch of lukewarm christians 'witness' to them?
Ever wonder why they ban universalist's on forums? What are they so afraid of? It's not like the Damnationists are out there witnessing to 'save' people from endless torture, and if they do, very little.
Do you really think GOD would leave the eternal destiny of his creation up to whether a bunch of lukewarm christians 'witness' to them?
@Tong2020
My view is different from others in at least two areas. First is that most see the death of Christ as only affecting the forgiveness or remission of sins, while I see the death of Christ as affecting not only that but more, like the atonement for sinners. Second is that, Most take atonement as no different from forgiveness of sin, while I take them as different from each other.
With regards atonement, Christ died for the whole world. But with regards the forgiveness of sin, Christ died only for His sheep or His church or His people or those whom the Father gave Him to raise at the last day.
I have read your answer over and over again... I can't see anything wrong or "off" with what you have stated as far as your definition of what the blood of Christ/His death has done for mankind. Propitiation is a very complex word... and covers what you have stated...
Total and complete payment for a debt... and that appeased God... It satisfied HIM completely... and it pleased Him. The debt was paid in full.
I do not know what other or most Christians believe about this... but I assumed this was well understood and accepted. Forgiveness of our sins is only ONE aspect of what the death of Christ accomplished.
I think what people have a problem with is the statement regarding Jesus' Blood only paying for the sins of HIS CHOSEN ONES... It all works out to the same thing... as those who are saved were so by HIS BLOOD and ATONEMENT... but those who are not saved do not benefit from this GIFT.
I still believe we have FREE will to choose HIM or not. and that HE died for the redemption of ALL man-kind... meaning there is NO SHORTAGE of redemption and salvation that is AVAILABLE... However... He did not waste one drop of HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD.
I think there is a difference between KNOWING who will be saved and not saved before life is all played out and it is not the same thing as stating that God created some for heaven and some for hell. That to me simply is not a thought I can comprehend. God desires us to be in fellowship with HIM.
Anyways... my two cents worth... I am not good at fighting scripture with scripture... so I will gracefully bow out of this conversation.
Very interesting thread!!!
My view is different from others in at least two areas. First is that most see the death of Christ as only affecting the forgiveness or remission of sins, while I see the death of Christ as affecting not only that but more, like the atonement for sinners. Second is that, Most take atonement as no different from forgiveness of sin, while I take them as different from each other.
With regards atonement, Christ died for the whole world. But with regards the forgiveness of sin, Christ died only for His sheep or His church or His people or those whom the Father gave Him to raise at the last day.
I have read your answer over and over again... I can't see anything wrong or "off" with what you have stated as far as your definition of what the blood of Christ/His death has done for mankind. Propitiation is a very complex word... and covers what you have stated...
Total and complete payment for a debt... and that appeased God... It satisfied HIM completely... and it pleased Him. The debt was paid in full.
I do not know what other or most Christians believe about this... but I assumed this was well understood and accepted. Forgiveness of our sins is only ONE aspect of what the death of Christ accomplished.
I think what people have a problem with is the statement regarding Jesus' Blood only paying for the sins of HIS CHOSEN ONES... It all works out to the same thing... as those who are saved were so by HIS BLOOD and ATONEMENT... but those who are not saved do not benefit from this GIFT.
I still believe we have FREE will to choose HIM or not. and that HE died for the redemption of ALL man-kind... meaning there is NO SHORTAGE of redemption and salvation that is AVAILABLE... However... He did not waste one drop of HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD.
I think there is a difference between KNOWING who will be saved and not saved before life is all played out and it is not the same thing as stating that God created some for heaven and some for hell. That to me simply is not a thought I can comprehend. God desires us to be in fellowship with HIM.
Anyways... my two cents worth... I am not good at fighting scripture with scripture... so I will gracefully bow out of this conversation.
Very interesting thread!!!
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And so? Does that refute anything I said in my post?
Interesting. Can you show how it was arrived at that “hardening” means the wringing out of that?
I am sorry but I don’t see the need for God to wring out what was already in the heart of Pharaoh, if at all, “harden” there means to wring out.
Tong
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<<<One thing that frustrates me about talking to religious people is their tendency to ask a question that was JUST answered. God is partial to his chosen people.>>>
Well, that answer does not answer what I was asking. My question is not to whom God is partial to, but HOW is God partial, which you contend He is.
Do you mean by being partial as having respect of persons or favoring one over another, such as favoring a poor over a rich man?
Tong
R2198
High Premise
New Member
So if GOD is all-knowing, and then creates people knowing he will ultimately torture and torment them throughout the endless horizons of eternity, what kind of demented idiot is he or she?
Happily, it's just the opposite of his nature, who shall be "All in All" - I Cor 15:28.
Religion and their fear-creating 666'ers, have manipulated translations and interpretations to keep the cash flowing into that deader-than-a-door-knob religion of christianity.
Happily, it's just the opposite of his nature, who shall be "All in All" - I Cor 15:28.
Religion and their fear-creating 666'ers, have manipulated translations and interpretations to keep the cash flowing into that deader-than-a-door-knob religion of christianity.
That is a very limiting view of grace.
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
Not just for some sins.
For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
Not just for some sinners.
None of that is salvation of Abraham's soul. Paul said he would as saved by faith. Not because of any thing he did for God. So all the things God called him to do... even though he was chosen for them, he could have refused... and he could have refused to believe when God spoke to him.
Not unless they learn from God. Amazing how people read the Bible backwards. Jesus was preaching so they could believe, not just to anger people who were incapable of believing. Again, you limit God's grace.
Thank you for taking time to ponder on what I posted and for a carefully thought out response.
<<<Total and complete payment for a debt... and that appeased God... It satisfied HIM completely... and it pleased Him. The debt was paid in full.>>>
Propitiation or atonement for sinners, the whole world that is, is to appease God, so that His wrath may not come upon the world as it was during the time of Noah. With regards the people (Israel) that God had chosen from among the peoples of the earth, to whom He had made Himself known in a special way, He gave his law for atonement which was necessary for Israel to do. This work of atonement, besides appeasing God, in view of their sins, that his wrath and judgment does not come upon them, such atonement makes way for them to be reconciled to God who have chosen them to be His people. So, with that, propitiation or atonement is to appease God and allow for reconciliation with God. How is the way for atonement? It is in the manner as prescribed by God in the law (Law of Moses) under the Levitical Priesthood. It requires an offering of a blood sacrifice, done by the high priest, to God. The blood shed is not a payment for sins, as though paying the penalty for sins, but as a covering for sins, as though by it, God sees the blood and not the sins, satisfying God that appease Him and the people reconciled to Him. Now, the law is said to be a shadow of a reality. That reality is this, the blood of Jesus Christ offered as the sacrifice for atonement, that sufficiently covers the sins of the people (the whole world, 1 John 2:2), completely satisfying God, appeasing Him, and allows for reconciliation with God.
Tong
R2199
<<<I still believe we have FREE will to choose HIM or not. and that HE died for the redemption of ALL man-kind... meaning there is NO SHORTAGE of redemption and salvation that is AVAILABLE... However... He did not waste one drop of HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD.>>>
Yes we have free will to choose Him or not. But the problem with fallen unregenerate mankind is that, even if he wills to repent unto God, he is not able to do so. For repentance is not a one time act but is a continuing act even until the end of our earthly life.
As I told you my view, Christ’s death did not make redemption available, but that He actually had redeemed. Now we know that not all mankind will go to heaven, which means not all mankind are redeemed by Jesus Christ, but only those whom the Father had given Him to raise up at the last day. That would only be His sheep, His people, His church. Not a drop of His precious blood is wasted for them who are not His sheep. Else if He shed His blood for all mankind, as much as the number of souls that goes to Hell is wasted of the precious blood of Christ that was shed for them.
Tong
R2200
If you try to study in scriptures what the death of Christ accomplished, I think you will not have the same understanding and interpretation of relevant passages that talks about the death and blood of Christ. For it seems to me that you are only looking at the death of Christ as a sacrifice for the forgiveness or remission of sin, when there’s more that His death accomplished.
Tong
R2201
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