The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I don’t deny scriptures. What I deny is your view or interpretation of it.

Where in there that it tells us that the Holy Spirit brings to life the Gospel in the heart of hearer who is dead to God?

Now, consider this scriptures:

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Jesus said the reason they don’t believe that He is the Christ, is because they are not His sheep. What does that tell you? Does that not tell you that there are sheep of Jesus and not sheep of Jesus among Israel? Do you not understand by that, that those who believe that He is the Christ, believe because they are His sheep and not that they become sheep because they believe?

Now, take that truth and see what it does with what you contend there.

Did you not read Acts 10, how that the preaching of the Gospel of Christ by Peter opened their eyes to Christ?

They knew God and worshipped Him, but they didn't know the One (Christ) whereby we must be saved.

That's why the angel sent Peter to them, to hear the Gospel of Christ to be saved.

It was the Holy Spirit who made the Gospel (the Word of God) real in their hearts.

Heb. 4:12

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

So, do you just ignore John 10:26? Have you any objection to my comment on John 10:26?

I agree that it is the Holy Spirit that made them hear, that is understand and believe, the gospel. But as you pointed out, they knew God and worshipped Him. In short they already have faith in God. They were not actually dead to God. Besides, the narrative tells us that God had chosen for them to be saved and hear the gospel.

I wait for your comments on John 10:26.

Tong
R2179

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
None of those scriptures teach what you teach that they rejected Jesus as the Christ and did not believe because “they chose not to be sheep.”

But here consider this scriptures:

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Jesus said the reason they don’t believe that He is the Christ, is because they are not His sheep. What does that tell you? Does that not tell you that there are sheep of Jesus and not sheep of Jesus among Israel? Do you not understand by that, that those who believe that He is the Christ, believe because they are His sheep and not that they become sheep because they believe?

They didn't believe because He was not the Christ they wanted, the suffering Messiah for the sins of the world.

They wanted the conquering Messiah to overthrow Rome.

God didn't pass them by, they chose of their own free will to deny Jesus as the Christ.

I choose to believe what scriptures said and to believe what Jesus Himself said, that the reason they did not believe that He is the Christ is because they are not His sheep.

Tong
R2180

 

[Renniks]

Jesus said the reason they don’t believe that He is the Christ, is because they are not His sheep. What does that tell you? Does that not tell you that there are sheep of Jesus and not sheep of Jesus among Israel? Do you not understand by that, that those who believe that He is the Christ, believe because they are His sheep and not that they become sheep because they believe?

You know that no one is literally a sheep, correct? It's a metaphor.
Matthew 25:31–46: "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
God wants every person to be saved eternally (2 Peter 3:9). That is why He has revealed in His Word the exact response required to receive the forgiveness of sins. Faith in Jesus as the Son of God (John 8:24), repenting of sin (Acts 17:30), confessing faith in Christ. (Matthew 10:32-33) So, if you aren't a sheep, it's on you.

The main thing between sheep and goats—is really simple. A sheep is led by its shepherd. A goatherd is led by his goat.
I've been around literal sheep and goats for decades. Goats pretty much are rebels. Sheep are pretty much followers. We are told to be sheep for this reason. It isn't anything to do with being chosen for salvation.

 

[Renniks]

That’s what you want to believe, I can understand that. And such belief makes Noah and his family deserving to be saved because he is a righteous man? Or does not scripture say that He found grace in God that He and his family were spared?

And no one here is saying what your straw man is saying, that God randomly chose them out from the rest of the peoples in the generation of Noah.

Really? Because I think that's exactly what you are saying. That God " elected" Noah and his family and no one else. For no reason you are willing to give. Being a righteous man didn't in itself make him worthy of being given grace, because he was still imperfect... but it's why God picked him. It's right there in the text.

 

[Brakelite]

If all Christ died for shall be made righteous , and all without exception are not made righteous, then, common sense tells us that Christ did not die for all without exception..

Rom 5: 19b
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

A person is lost because he refuses to believe in what has already been accomplished for him in Christ through the shedding of blood on Calvary. A person is not saved when he believes and Christ goes back on the cross for that person. The blood is shed. For everyone. And anyone who believes may receive the benefits of that shed blood, even eternal life. For them one who does not believe, he is shut out of the kingdom... Not because Christ did not die for him, but because he refuses to believe. We are saved by faith. We are lost by lack of faith.

 

[Brakelite]

<<<So, you are just making this stuff up?
Because Jesus was amazed at a women's faith. How could he be amazed at what He had given her?>>>

No I am not. Jesus was amazed. So? He also got hungry, wept, got tired, and so on. And why is that? I am sure you know why. Now, we know that the Son of God knows even the heart of man. That’s why He knows what faith the woman have. Now I ask you a similar question, why was He amazed?

Tong
R2168

Huh?

 

[Brakelite]

Why could He not do as He please?

If you are suggesting that it pleases God to have the power to arbitrarily put to death everyone except 8, then your understanding of the nature of God is sadly bereft of any depth and wisdom whatsoever.

 

[brightfame52]

A person is lost because he refuses to believe in what has already been accomplished for him in Christ through the shedding of blood on Calvary. A person is not saved when he believes and Christ goes back on the cross for that person. The blood is shed. For everyone. And anyone who believes may receive the benefits of that shed blood, even eternal life. For them one who does not believe, he is shut out of the kingdom... Not because Christ did not die for him, but because he refuses to believe. We are saved by faith. We are lost by lack of faith.

Not true!

 

[Brakelite]

Not true!

Care to expand on that?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Jesus said the reason they don’t believe that He is the Christ, is because they are not His sheep. What does that tell you? Does that not tell you that there are sheep of Jesus and not sheep of Jesus among Israel? Do you not understand by that, that those who believe that He is the Christ, believe because they are His sheep and not that they become sheep because they believe?

You know that no one is literally a sheep, correct? It's a metaphor.
Matthew 25:31–46: "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
God wants every person to be saved eternally (2 Peter 3:9). That is why He has revealed in His Word the exact response required to receive the forgiveness of sins. Faith in Jesus as the Son of God (John 8:24), repenting of sin (Acts 17:30), confessing faith in Christ. (Matthew 10:32-33) So, if you aren't a sheep, it's on you.

The main thing between sheep and goats—is really simple. A sheep is led by its shepherd. A goatherd is led by his goat.
I've been around literal sheep and goats for decades. Goats pretty much are rebels. Sheep are pretty much followers. We are told to be sheep for this reason. It isn't anything to do with being chosen for salvation.

Yes, it’s metaphor. So, does that change anything in what I said in my post in the quote box? There is nothing you said there that changes the truth that Jesus said in John 10:26.

Tong
R2181

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That’s what you want to believe, I can understand that. And such belief makes Noah and his family deserving to be saved because he is a righteous man? Or does not scripture say that He found grace in God that He and his family were spared?

And no one here is saying what your straw man is saying, that God randomly chose them out from the rest of the peoples in the generation of Noah.

Really? Because I think that's exactly what you are saying. That God " elected" Noah and his family and no one else. For no reason you are willing to give. Being a righteous man didn't in itself make him worthy of being given grace, because he was still imperfect... but it's why God picked him. It's right there in the text.

As I said, it’s what you think I am saying, but not what I am saying.

<<<Being a righteous man didn't in itself make him worthy of being given grace, because he was still imperfect... but it's why God picked him. It's right there in the text.>>>

That’s right, being a righteous man didn’t make him worthy of being given grace. He is then unworthy like his sons and their wives and the rest.

What is the reason why God chose Noah and family to spare from being destroyed and killed in the flood, but not one of the many little children among the rest of the people?

Let’s take for granted, for argument’s sake, that Noah was chosen by God because he was a righteous man. How about his 3 sons and their respective wives? Why were they chosen? How about the little children, why were they not chosen? The point is that, it is inconclusive that being a righteous man gets to have himself be chosen by God. Not saying by that that God randomly chooses people for salvation. For it is my view that God’s every election of people is in a manner consistent with His nature, His Deity. And that isn’t random in any way, shape, or form, but is then according to His wisdom, will, purpose, character, pleasure, and all.

Now, if only for being a righteous man, doing righteous works, that one gets himself chosen by God, for which you contend that God chooses according to that, why did God choose Abram, who was a pagan? Why choose the children of Israel who are a stiff-necked people?

Tong
R2182

 

[Renniks]

Now, if only for being a righteous man, doing righteous works, that one gets himself chosen by God, for which you contend that God chooses according to that, why did God choose Abram, who was a pagan? Why choose the children of Israel who are a stiff-necked people?

Noah and Abraham were chosen to do certain things. Not for salvation. Surely God knew Abraham would become a man of faith, but that's not the same as being chosen for salvation.

 

[Renniks]

Yes, it’s metaphor. So, does that change anything in what I said in my post in the quote box? There is nothing you said there that changes the truth that Jesus said in John 10:26.

Tong
R2181

It doesn't say in John 10 that one is born to be a sheep or goat.
...but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. "

Want to be a sheep? Listen and follow. In the Jews case, they had failed to learn from God, so they were not currently his. Doesn't mean they could never be.

 

[Tong2020]

A person is lost because he refuses to believe in what has already been accomplished for him in Christ through the shedding of blood on Calvary. A person is not saved when he believes and Christ goes back on the cross for that person. The blood is shed. For everyone. And anyone who believes may receive the benefits of that shed blood, even eternal life. For them one who does not believe, he is shut out of the kingdom... Not because Christ did not die for him, but because he refuses to believe. We are saved by faith. We are lost by lack of faith.

It is said in scriptures, according to the law, without shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. But I take note that every blood that is shed under the law was offered by an individual Jew who seek forgiveness, was shed for him only, and that no blood is shed for those who does not make the offering. So, it is my view that Jesus, with regards such sacrifice for the remission of sin, shed His blood only for those who seek for forgiveness and not for those who does not. It would be a waste and is useless, senseless, and unwise, for Jesus to shed His blood for those who seek not forgiveness.

Now, I also take note in the law, of the shedding of blood of the animal sacrifice, for the atonement for all the children of Israel, done every year by the high priest. The shed blood there is for all the people of Israel, unlike that with regards the sacrifice for the remission of sin. So, in this regard, it is my view that Jesus shed His blood for all men.

Tong
R2183

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<So, you are just making this stuff up?
Because Jesus was amazed at a women's faith. How could he be amazed at what He had given her?>>>

No I am not. Jesus was amazed. So? He also got hungry, wept, got tired, and so on. And why is that? I am sure you know why. Now, we know that the Son of God knows even the heart of man. That’s why He knows what faith the woman have. Now I ask you a similar question, why was He amazed?

Huh?

Apparently you did not get that. How is it that the Son of God who knows all things get to be amazed, if indeed He was amazed of the woman’s faith, by what He already knows?

Tong
R2184

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Why could He not do as He please?

If you are suggesting that it pleases God to have the power to arbitrarily put to death everyone except 8, then your understanding of the nature of God is sadly bereft of any depth and wisdom whatsoever.

No I am definitely not suggesting anything like that. For there is nothing arbitrary at all in that.

Tong
R2185

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now, if only for being a righteous man, doing righteous works, that one gets himself chosen by God, for which you contend that God chooses according to that, why did God choose Abram, who was a pagan? Why choose the children of Israel who are a stiff-necked people?

Noah and Abraham were chosen to do certain things. Not for salvation. Surely God knew Abraham would become a man of faith, but that's not the same as being chosen for salvation.

Of course God chooses people with reason and purpose. Noah was chosen for some reason and purpose as was Abram. And we are also told by scriptures on top of that, that Noah was chosen to be saved as also Abraham was.

<<<Surely God knew Abraham would become a man of faith, but that's not the same as being chosen for salvation.>>>

No doubt that God knew Abram would become a man of faith, for God is omniscient. Now that does not take away the fact that God had chosen Abram and unconditionally give him His grace (note: scriptures does not say it was in consideration or by reason of the future things that God knows Abram will do), the grace of salvation, the promise of taking him out from his idolatrous family and people and bring him to a land flowing with milk and honey, which He gives to him as an inheritance, and make his name great, make him a great nation, and that in him all the families of the earth shall be blessed. If you don’t see that as salvation, well......what can I say.

Tong
R2186

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes, it’s metaphor. So, does that change anything in what I said in my post in the quote box? There is nothing you said there that changes the truth that Jesus said in John 10:26.

It doesn't say in John 10 that one is born to be a sheep or goat.
...but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. "

Want to be a sheep? Listen and follow. In the Jews case, they had failed to learn from God, so they were not currently his. Doesn't mean they could never be.

<<<It doesn't say in John 10 that one is born to be a sheep or goat.>>>

And I don’t say that either. But here’s what it says, that the sheep of Jesus were given to Him by His Father.

<<<Want to be a sheep? Listen and follow.>>>

It doesn't also say in John 10 that one gets oneself to be a sheep of Jesus by doing that. One is a sheep of Jesus because the Father had given him to the Shepherd.

What Jesus said in John 10:26 remains, they do not believe, not because of anything else, but because they are not His sheep. That means, they were not given to Him by the Father. And this apparently had been shown in this thread to be irrefutable.

Now what can be said of the sheep of Jesus, those given to Him by His Father? That the sheep will believe in Him and will follow Him.

Tong
R2187

 

[brightfame52]

Care to expand on that?

I am expanding on my points just read the thread.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hebrews 9:22, "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins"

So forgiveness is not based on penitence but rather on killing an animal or a person?