Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Of course. Would you acknowledge that we sometimes grieve, quench and resist the Holy Spirit in our own volition in rebellion against what God wants from us? I would think you would acknowledge that. But, don't you believe that the conviction and chastisement from the Holy Spirit can also be resisted?
Look at this passage...
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Notice here that Jesus is telling the people in the church of the Laodiceans that He wishes they were cold or hot instead of lukewarm. These were true believers He was rebuking here because that is who He rebukes and corrects. This implies that they were lukewarm by their own choice that was in rebellion against what Jesus wanted from them, so He told them to "be zealous therefore, and repent" or else "I will spue thee out of my mouth".
Does this passage give you the impression that they had no responsibility to willingly choose to respond to His call for them to repent? Is there any indication here that they were certain to repent as Jesus was commanding them to do in order to avoid Him spewing them out of His mouth? Not at all. It was their responsibility to repent and no one, including God, was going to do it for them. It was their responsibility to heed Jesus's warning and choose to buy of Him gold tried in the fire. He was imploring them to stop thinking they were "in need of nothing" and start acknowledging that they needed Him and were nothing without Him.
How can you read a passage like this and think that God overrides our will and ensures that we will repent when this passage clearly indicates that God makes man responsible to choose whether to repent or not? Jesus was clearly indicating here that repentance is dependent on man's choice. If they chose to repent, He would not spew them out of His mouth. If they chose not to repent, He would spew them out of His mouth.
Who said it is literal? We are looking at the most symbolic book in the Bible? It does not even “one thousand years.” You force that into the text. It is the more figurative "a thousand."
The term “one thousand” is only found once in Scripture in Isaiah 30:17. Country do I do you imagine and argue, it doesn't exist in Revelation 20. It simply reads chília étee, or "thousand years." For it to read one thousand years as you are suggesting it would have to be prefixed by the Greek word mia for one - which it isn't. Thus it would read mia chília étee. The Greek therefore seems to allow for an indefinite interpretation.
Amils rightly consider the intra-Advent period to be an indefinite period. This is last days period running through to the second coming. It is therefore proper to view Revelation 20 the same. The symbolic usage of numbers in Revelation reinforces that. The genre of Revelation and the symbolism of the book lends itself to this type of understanding. You could also apply that same reasoning to the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes? Of course not! It means a short period of time. A thousand years represents a long period of time.
Peter in Acts tells us Christ was in Hades
And Christ was raised on the Third Day, not the first day.
Peter says Christ's souls was not left in Hades, means God took Christ's soul from Hades when God resurrected Christ.
So Christ was in hades a couple of days after He died. This is even in the Apostle's creed
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:
‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
And Christ was raised on the Third Day, not the first day.
Peter says Christ's souls was not left in Hades, means God took Christ's soul from Hades when God resurrected Christ.
So Christ was in hades a couple of days after He died. This is even in the Apostle's creed
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:
‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
You come out with this nonsense because you do not understand what Calvinists really believe. This is another strawman.
You build your argument on sand: "I'm talking about no responsibility in salvation, not responsibility in general. I go there because it's true about Calvinists. That doctrine teaches that man has no responsibility to make a choice to repent or believe and instead the choice is entirely up to God."
I am not wasting any more time on this subject. You cannot even be fair and honest in regard to what I believe.
The Apostles’ Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty,creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic* church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How much do you think God cares for those whose names are not written in the book of life? It seems that, in Calvinism, He does not care about them at all because He does not even give them any opportunity to be saved. In my view He cared enough about them to send His Son to die for their sins and give them the opportunity at receiving eternal life that they willfully and stubbornly rejected.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You addressed none of them. You are continually making straw man arguments that do not address what I believe. You are arguing against a straw man Arminian who believes in works based salvation. I do not believe in works based salvation.
Please do not preach Calvinism. Haha! I guess I'm only half kidding there. But, seriously, there's no rush, of course.
Ultimately the Divine choice has been made that is true.
You cannot forget the process though as we do receive Christ and believe even though this is granted us as the Father teaches all those He gives to Christ.
My POV is God sovereignly makes us born again, then teaches us and we come to believe in Christ.
As in this way here:
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
What does John 6 expose about this regarding Christ's apostles?
You can see it in v66-69
Read for relevance as just posting a verse or 2 you cannot understand the context
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
I hate to burst your bubble: they are in the Book from before the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Revelation 17:8 says, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (thaumazo – admire or marvel), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
Men are either (1) God's elect and have their names written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the earth and therefore refuse to submit to the beast system or else they are (2) unregenerate children of the devil who are not in the Book of Life from the foundation of the earth and therefore submit to the beast system. It is that simple.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
As if you are not constantly misrepresenting my view? Is that a major sign if weakness in your arguments then?
Please spare me your denial of what Calvinism teaches. I'm not misrepresenting it at all. Calvinism does not believe in free will. Calvinism believes that the choice in salvation is entirely God's alone. Do you deny that? So, what spiritual battle are you talking about? I'm talking about a spiritual battle for our souls that is ongoing in real time with the victor over each soul not being predetermined by God.
What do you think they are resisting exactly when it comes to the Holy Spirit? I believe they are resisting the call to repentance that Jesus makes to all sinners.
This is nonsense and not taught anywhere in scripture. Nowhere does scripture teach that God offers salvation to anyone who is unable to accept it! That is ludicrous! The reality is that Calvinism gives people an excuse. Calvinism gives them the excuse that they just naturally reject the offer of salvation and are not able to accept it. What better excuse can someone have for not believing and not repenting than that?
I never alleged works based salvation. I do not believe you (or most) Arminianists believe that. I am highlighting the unscriptural focus on man (that is totally unscriptural) and the attributing to him of qualities he does not possess. I find that disturbing.
Romans 3:10-12 explains why, saying, “There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Man by nature will always run from God. He will never come to God. His nature is to rebel against God. When man goes over the natural line of outright rejection of God then he becomes reprobate. This is the end of every man natural. That is why he needs a supernatural intervention where Christ first opens his eyes. When he then sees his awful predicament then he repents and believes.
There is nothing good in him.
Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Arminianists ignore this passage as it exposes their doctrine of elevating the flesh. Man is totally depraved in all his faculties. The Bible teaches that unregenerate man is not able to save himself. He has no natural inclination to desire it or any capability to initiate it. Those that attribute godly abilities to the old nature are clearly in error on this matter. We can only therefore conclude in the words of Scripture, “it is not of him that willeth (or of him that desires), nor of him that runneth (or walks hastily – or of human effort), but of God that sheweth mercy” (Romans 9:16).
Salvation does not emanate from man. It cannot be realized by human merit, human desire or human labor. Man can no more create his second birth than he can his first birth. It is a sovereign act of God’s mercy. This may be humbling to the flesh, but it is so. The man exercising faith and repentance and any righteous thought can only do such through the work of the Spirit. It is nothing of him. He is simply a conduit that the Spirit works through.
A dead man spiritually does not possess the ability to believe. God imputes that into a man through His Word and Spirit. He then exercises it. Simple!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why did you not address what I said? You can't be bothered to give your interpretation of the passage? You are making nothing but strawman arguments against what I believe, so look in the mirror when it comes to that.
Do you believe that man is responsible to choose whether to repent and believe or not? How can you honestly say you believe that? What kind of "choice" is it when they have two options and are only able to choose one of them? That's no choice at all.
That is exactly how I feel about your arguments. You are not addressing what I believe, but rather what your strawman works-based salvation Arminian believes. I'm not wasting any more time on this subject, either, since, apparently, neither of us are able to even understand what the other believes for whatever reason.
Jesus does not pray for unbelievers, or the world.
This means there is no intercessions for them with God.
John 17
6 “I have [c]manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep[d] through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them [e]in the world, I kept them in [f]Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is [g]lost except the son of [h]perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify[i] them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
We can always pray for the unsaved, that God will show them mercy and save them
Like Paul says here, and we are to do good to all men, especially those who believe.
Romans 10
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for [a]Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Like Paul says here, and we are to do good to all men, especially those who believe.
Romans 10
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for [a]Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
In your opinion. But you have shown how unscriptural your view is in every angle we have looked at. Your self-help, man-centered, He-loves-me-He-loves-me-not, gospel is contrary to the faithful character of God, eternal life and to His eternal truth. You have no assurance that you are going to make it - in your beliefs. It is all dependent on you doing A, B and C. So, yes, it is a good works gospel. You acknowledge God will not forsake you, but you argue that you could forsake Him and end up in hell. So, yes, it is all about you.
The doctrines of grace are all about Him. That is what Scripture teaches. You will never change me on this subject with such an erroneous gospel that misrepresents the character of God.
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