Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

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WPM

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Personally, I believe Adam and Eve at their deaths, God admitted back into Eden, which afterwards is known as Paradise.
It was the place where all those God would save before Christ went at death, (their spirits) There is a spiritual body of some kind.

The only other option is they ceased to exist, which is false, or went into fiery torments of hell, false, God made a sacrifice for their sins...
OR they ascended into heaven, false, cause before Christ came, man and God were separated and only Christ can ascend into heaven, so when HE ascends we ascended with Him. But before His ascension into heaven there must have been a third place for the righteous dead to have gone, otherwise known as Abraham's Bosom or Paradise.

Since Christ tells the thief that very day they would be in Paradise, it must be Abaham's bosom cause Christ is not going to ascend till after the resurrection, 3 more days left to go. On the THIRD DAY Christ was resurrected. This is my thoughts on the matter.
Genesis 2:8-9: “And the LORD God planted a garden [Gr. paradeisos] eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden [Gr. paradeisos], and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”

The Greek word for paradise (paradeisos) is used 27 times in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint). The first thirteen times are in Genesis 2 and 3, all references to the Garden in Eden, of course. Other references in the Old Testament to the Garden in Eden use this same Greek word. But it is also employed to refer to a beautiful royal garden in Scripture. Paradise is an ancient term meaning a royal garden or a hunting-park. It derives its origin back to the Garden of Eden. In both Jewish apocalyptic literature and in the Talmud Paradise is associated with the Garden of Eden (the heavenly prototype).

The Greek New Testament that Christ and the Apostles often used which was written in the 3rd century BC.

Genesis 3:23-24: “Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden [Gr. paradeisos] of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden [Gr. paradeisos] of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

Genesis 3 reveals Paradise lost! When man fell in the Garden his relationship with God was broke. He lost that perfect communion with God and consequently surrendered his favored position before God. Man in the form of Adam disobeyed the divine warning (Genesis 3:6) and brought judgement upon himself and all creation.

The angelic “flaming sword” was placed at the border of the Garden of Eden to prevent man from returning to paradise. Man was not qualified or worthy to return there.

Paradise, the perfection, the tree of life and the flaming sword, were now all transferred to heaven. Earth was left to fallen man and Satan.

Throughout the whole of the old covenant, God’s people, dead or alive, had no automatic access to heaven because of sin. When believers died, they went straight to Abraham’s bosom in Hades. This was a waiting place for believers anticipating being rescued by the Messiah.

Because of sin, man was banished from Paradise. That would remain the case until sin was finally and fully paid for. This was Paradise lost!

Do not miss the allusions to the tree of life.

Man was not allowed to go into the presence of God – only under certain circumstances.

The priest once a year on the day of atonement.

Paradise was lost right up until the cross.

In the New Testament Paradise becomes synonymous with heaven and the New Jerusalem.

When Jesus prophesied to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise [Gr. paradeisos]

He was announcing a massive change in the location believers went to upon death since the beginning of time. He was revealing something absolutely new. Through the work of Christ, God’s people at death would now be taken into the holy presence of God. It took the transaction of the new covenant to realize that.

It was this same place that Paul the Apostle testified, in 2 Corinthians 12:4. After the cross, after the emptying of Abraham bosom, Paul testified in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise [Gr. paradeisos], and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Paradise = the third heaven.

If we compare the location of “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is clearly the New Jerusalem. Revelation 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise [Gr. paradeisos] of God.” Clearly “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 resides within Paradise.

In Revelation 21:2 we learn: “John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

In Revelation 22:2, 14 he further describes, In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of lifeBlessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

We can safely deduce that the word Paradise is used as another name for the heavenly abode, and particularly the New Jerusalem. No one would surely doubt the location of “the tree of life” here in Revelation 22:2, 14. It is located in the New Jerusalem.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Repeated Scripture portrays a victorious Christ since His all-conquering victory over death.
Jesus has not conquered death yet. The Pope died yesterday.
Jesus said Revelation 3:21: “I … overcame.”
Jesus says that he overcame, past tense. His promise to Laodicea is future tense.
Christ announced to His disciples in Matthew 28:18, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”
Jesus claims that the Father has granted him authority over heaven and earth, but this does not mean that all other rival powers have been placed under his feet.

According to 1 Corinthians 15 there is an order to be followed when Christ subdues all of his enemies.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 But each in his own order:

A. Christ the first fruits,
B. after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
C. then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

As of today, the world has only witnessed A. above.

You assert that the kingdom has already been firmly established; however, Paul introduces a crucial point by stating that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." This statement suggests two important implications. First, it emphasizes that the kingdom of God is indeed something that requires inheritance, highlighting that access to this divine realm is not granted automatically but must be received. Second, while we profess that the King is prepared to assume authority within His kingdom, there is a significant concern: He currently lacks subjects who are fit to enter into this kingdom. These potential subjects must undergo a transformation, a profound change, before they can be considered worthy of life within that holy realm. This transformation is essential for anyone seeking to partake in the inheritance of God's kingdom, a transformation that has yet to happen.
 

WPM

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They were not regenerated without the internal work of the Spirit. I should've been more clear of what I was talking about. We have a major misunderstanding here and are not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit that was unprecedented before the day of Pentecost. Where does scripture talk about believers being indwelt by the Holy Spirit and having various spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit in OT times?


You know I believe that about the church, too, so, we have just had a misunderstanding here.


Yes, it was. I'm speaking in terms of being permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit and being given different spiritual gifts like tongues, healing, teaching, prophecy, etc. as is described in relation to the NT church.

But Jesus gave those who received Him eternal life before the cross and before Pentecost. Jesus said in John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish (or experience the second death), but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

John 3:36 says, He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Jesus said in John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (or experience the second death); but is passed from death unto life.”

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54 & 58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath (present active indicative) eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

In John 8:51, Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death).”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (present active particle) in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death).”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Here is more undoubted proof that believers experienced the permanent indwelling of the Spirit before the cross and before Pentecost.
 

CadyandZoe

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Those are talking about being bodily dead.
Jesus teaches us that when a person's body dies, they aren't dead as we think of it. He also teaches that they are asleep, unconscious and remain with the body, which explains why Jesus was able to raise people from the dead. He went to where the body was buried and he commanded that they rise.
Do you not differentiate between the body, soul and spirit?
Yes, we differentiate between them, but unlike the Neoplatonists, we don't believe that the soul is eternal or conscious while in the grave.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Right. So, can you see why it makes no sense to suggest that the soul or spirit somehow goes to heaven?
 

WPM

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Jesus has not conquered death yet. The Pope died yesterday.

Jesus says that he overcame, past tense. His promise to Laodicea is future tense.

Jesus claims that the Father has granted him authority over heaven and earth, but this does not mean that all other rival powers have been placed under his feet.

According to 1 Corinthians 15 there is an order to be followed when Christ subdues all of his enemies.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 But each in his own order:

A. Christ the first fruits,
B. after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
C. then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

As of today, the world has only witnessed A. above.

You assert that the kingdom has already been firmly established; however, Paul introduces a crucial point by stating that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." This statement suggests two important implications. First, it emphasizes that the kingdom of God is indeed something that requires inheritance, highlighting that access to this divine realm is not granted automatically but must be received. Second, while we profess that the King is prepared to assume authority within His kingdom, there is a significant concern: He currently lacks subjects who are fit to enter into this kingdom. These potential subjects must undergo a transformation, a profound change, before they can be considered worthy of life within that holy realm. This transformation is essential for anyone seeking to partake in the inheritance of God's kingdom, a transformation that has yet to happen.
Death has been defeated. The grave is empty. Abraham’s bosom is empty. It will receive its final destruction (through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus) at the second coming. Then the curse will be lifted.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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But Jesus gave those who received Him eternal life before the cross and before Pentecost. Jesus said in John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish (or experience the second death), but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

John 3:36 says, He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Jesus said in John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (or experience the second death); but is passed from death unto life.”

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54 & 58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath (present active indicative) eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

In John 8:51, Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death).”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (present active particle) in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death).”
These are speaking of the promise of eternal BODILY life that Jesus gave believers that we will receive when Jesus returns rather than being cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. John 3:16 speaks of the future hope of the eternal life that we will be given when Jesus returns rather than perishing in the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Notice that eternal life, in a bodily sense, is something that we obviously do not yet have, but will inherit when Jesus returns.

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Here is more undoubted proof that believers experienced the permanent indwelling of the Spirit before the cross and before Pentecost.
We both complain about others when they don't address our points, right? Why are you not addressing mine? If all believers have always had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the beginning of time then why did none of the disciples have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until well after they first believed?

John 20:22 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Why did they not already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before this? Obviously, they believed already well before this.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Jesus teaches us that when a person's body dies, they aren't dead as we think of it. He also teaches that they are asleep, unconscious and remain with the body, which explains why Jesus was able to raise people from the dead. He went to where the body was buried and he commanded that they rise.
He teaches that they are bodily asleep/dead. They are obviously no longer living their lives on the earth, so they are asleep in that sense. It does not mean their souls and spirits are also asleep. Scripture like Luke 16:19-31 and Revelation 6:9-11 make it quite clear that those who are physically dead are still conscious.

Yes, we differentiate between them, but unlike the Neoplatonists, we don't believe that the soul is eternal or conscious while in the grave.
You believe wrongly about the soul. I don't know what the "conscious while in the grave" nonsense means.

Right. So, can you see why it makes no sense to suggest that the soul or spirit somehow goes to heaven?
Not at all. Why do you imagine that your weak arguments are convincing at all? That's amazing to me.
 

WPM

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These are speaking of the promise of eternal BODILY life that Jesus gave believers that we will receive when Jesus returns rather than being cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. John 3:16 speaks of the future hope of the eternal life that we will be given when Jesus returns rather than perishing in the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Notice that eternal life, in a bodily sense, is something that we obviously do not yet have, but will inherit when Jesus returns.


We both complain about others when they don't address our points, right? Why are you not addressing mine? If all believers have always had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the beginning of time then why did none of the disciples have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until well after they first believed?
Bro! You are sounding like a Premiller. We have eternal life now! I showed you the biblical proof. It is rock solid. It is irrefutable. These promises are more than a future hope. They are a present reality. The spiritual life within us is as eternal as God is. This could be your Arminianism coloring your understanding of this subject. This is another reason why I reject that unbiblical doctrine.

Jesus said in John 17:3: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Do you know Him now?

Then you have life eternal!
 

Doug

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Who says that? Link, please.
[Rom 9:4 KJV] 4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;

Israel has the covenants and we arent Israel
 

covenantee

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[Rom 9:4 KJV] 4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;

Israel has the covenants and we arent Israel
Israel outside of Christ does not have the New Covenant of salvation in Christ. Paul does not include it in Romans 9:4.

We the Church in Christ do.

I asked for a link to who says that we don't.
 
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WPM

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We both complain about others when they don't address our points, right? Why are you not addressing mine? If all believers have always had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the beginning of time then why did none of the disciples have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until well after they first believed?

John 20:22 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Why did they not already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before this? Obviously, they believed already well before this.
I am confused by your reasoning. You previously said they only received the Spirit permanently at Pentecost, but now you are claiming (above) that it was earlier? You said: "Jesus talked about it as something that had not yet happened and would happen in the future. And, it happened for them on the day of Pentecost." You then also said they do not experience the permanent experience of the Spirit to when "Jesus returns." Can you explain? When is it?
 

WPM

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We both complain about others when they don't address our points, right? Why are you not addressing mine? If all believers have always had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the beginning of time then why did none of the disciples have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until well after they first believed?
I addressed your post directly and in detail. It just didn't agree with your Arminianist thinking.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Bro! You are sounding like a Premiller. We have eternal life now!
You sound like a Calvinist. Because you are one. I don't want to continue this convo here, bro. We can talk about this more privately if you want.

I showed you the biblical proof. It is rock solid. It is irrefutable.
You know that these kinds of comments mean nothing to me just like these kinds of comments mean nothing to me if anyone else makes them.

These promises are more than a future hope. They are a present reality. The spiritual life within us is as eternal as God is. This could be your Arminianism coloring your understanding of this subject. This is another reason why I reject that unbiblical doctrine.
Calvinism is unbiblical. Just as unbiblical as Premillennialism. God offers salvation to all people and makes people responsible to accept His offer. That is taught repeatedly in scripture. But, you believe He gives it to some and withholds it from the rest and offers it to no one.

Jesus said in John 17:3: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Do you know Him now?

Then you have life eternal!
Why do you think that man has no responsibility? That is taught REPEATEDLY in scripture. Why else does man have no excuse for not believing?

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Do you think we should just ignore passages like this? I don't get it, bro. We agree on end times doctrine as much as any two people here do, but we're far apart on this topic.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I am confused by your reasoning. You previously said they only received the Spirit permanently at Pentecost, but now you are claiming that it was earlier? You said: "Jesus talked about it as something that had not yet happened and would happen in the future. And, it happened for them on the day of Pentecost." Then you are they do not receive to when "Jesus returns." Can you explain.
Yes, I was thinking of the other almost 3,000 people besides them who received the Spirit on the day of Pentecost and was not remembering at the time that the disciples had already previously received the Spirit before that.

But, tell me, if all believers from all-time have received the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, why did the disciples not receive the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit when they first believed instead of well after that? Is that your understanding of how all OT saints received the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Not until months or years after they first believed?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I addressed your post directly and in detail. It just didn't agree with your Arminianist thinking.
That's right. So, do you want to have a huge debate about salvation here or should we just stick to end times here? I don't want to derail this thread with a Calvinist vs. Arminian debate. We debated that topic privately already and got nowhere. We'll have to just agree to disagree.