Hey You!
Member
Are you saying that if All are not raised unto Righteousness, Christ is not raised? Because all are raised to face Judgment. Since All are raised to face Judgment, your objection doesn't apply; right?
Limited atonement !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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All I can say is if you dont believe in limited atonement, you dont believe the True Gospel
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
It's like a catch 22. Christ died for the sins of the entire world. His act, sufficient to cover all and power sufficient to take awy all; YET, His free gift of salvation is only offered to those who believe and ask for forgiveness. You must receive the gift. And so technically the blood of Christ is applied to a portion, not all. People have a problem with TULIP. The Atonement shouldn't be presented as limited, nor should His forgiveness presented as limited. It is a conundrum of sorts ... His foreknowledge and our spiritually disabled "free will".
Runningman
Active Member
Limited atonement doesn't state "you must believe in limited atonement in order to believe in the true Gospel." Limited atonement only attempts to define what the Gospel is, but only that the Gospel must be believed in order for one to receive atonement and thus be proven to be elect under the limited atonement theory. It's just an attempt to reinvent the wheel, but it only muddies the water. The Bible already states what the gospel is. Don't worry about confusing the issue with your doctrines. Just leave it up to the believer and God will sort out the rest.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Notice that Paul changes the pronoun from "all" to "many" between verses 18 and 19.
Romans 5:18-19 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
While all men, being like Adam, are under condemnation, "the many" will be made righteous because of Jesus's obedience. The phrase "the many" seems to echo Isaiah 53:11Isaiah 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.
In the book of Isaiah, there is a poignant reference to those who have strayed from the path of righteousness—transgressors for whom "the Righteous One" stands ready to intercede. These individuals represent "the many" who are encompassed within this profound promise. The crucial question that looms over each of us is whether Jesus will advocate for us personally when the time comes. It's important to move beyond viewing the atonement merely as a historical event that has already unfolded. Instead, we should perceive the atonement as an impending reality that will manifest at the judgment seat, a moment when Jesus will intercede on behalf of those chosen by the Father. This understanding adds a layer of urgency and personal reflection to our spiritual journey.
The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it.
Once again All I can say is if you dont believe in limited atonement, you dont believe the True Gospel
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Yep, the limited atonement peoples have been deceived by the devil in to not accepting the whole counsel of God so you're right... very few if any will come to the truth and be saved so they can go to Heaven.
The follow calvinism which is a different gospel and a fake jesus
And you don't even know if you are one of the "elect" or not.
That's one thing calvinist and moslems have in common.... neither cult are convinced they are even saved.
ALL calvinism is false doctrine whether it's the regular kind or the hyper kind.
Some are more like a hyper griper cause the gripe moan and grown and complains about everything
More like twisting the Word of God and ignoring scriptures that demonstrate calvinism is heresy
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
False statements such as this is why the calvinist cult thinks they are better than everyone else
In the end the calvinists go south for eternity
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Well, the disciples were taught to spread the Gospel. Where in scripture was limited atonement attached to that message?
The crucial question is: Do we believe that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose on the third day according to the scriptures ... or not?
Who else or how many will be saved was not to concern us, although scripture states that narrow is the Gate/Door and few will find it and also that likey the Elect amount to 1/3. That sort of puts a limitation on the entire scope of salvation. But what we personally need to be concerned about is first our own salvation, spiritual growth and then to spread that message. It is a personal invitation that is not qualified by the quantity of the elect.
I think Calvin's acronym ( if it is his) is flawed. It is high minded, presumptuous, cold and simplistic ( as to reduce the sovereignty of God into a cute flowery acronym). Actually to be able to summarize something of this magnitude, one would have to be omniscient. God's Word is sufficient and then of course we have the Holy Spirit to teach us.
Predestination is true; but why present it as though Jesus sacrificial death was limited, not powerful enough to cover all sin? It is. Limited atonement, is technically _ at the end of time _ true _ (that not all will make it so, the blood will not be applied to all); but this should not be a theme and evangelical tool to hit everyone over the head with as they spread the love of the Gospel.
The truth of limited effectual saving atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it.
What I don't understand why some use words that even scripture does not use.
What I have been saying very clearly, as an opposite to the false teaching of limited atonement, using Brightfame52's theology compared to what scripture actually teaches.
The text used is I Cor 15:12-19, The words are, if all the dead are not raised, then Christ is not risen.
Now, Brightfame52 is quite adamant the context is all about the elect. Thus his theology says only some are risen to life. That is directly opposite of scripture.
Thus his theology denies scripture and thus it means that Christ's work was meaningless, ineffectual. He accomplished nothing, and as the context of I Cor 15:12-19 very clearly states that anyone's faith is futile, that even those who are in Christ would perish.
It is absolute, either Christ, by His Incarnation became man and by His death defeated death for the world, all of mankind, or He accomplished nothing. Limited atonement negates everything in scripture. So much so, that if He did exist in history, He is nothing more than a good teacher, a good man.
You obviously do not understand the ramifications of your own theology.
His gift of salvation is offered to every human being. Heb 2:9 is objective. He overcame death for every human being and no man can reject it.
His sacrifice for sin is also offered to all mankind, I John 2:2. This second part man has a role to play. He can either accept his offer of eternal life with Him,or reject that offer. There is nothing limited, He so loved the world that whosoever believeth on Him shall have eternal life
I'm not sure what answer you are agreed on, I assume post 346. If that is correct the explanation of Rom 5:18-19 is incorrect. But that notwithstanding, there is no such thing as limited atonement.
Hey You!
Member
Saint Paul is simply saying to Believers who didn't believe in Resurrection; comparatively speaking, the result would be Christ couldn’t rise from the dead if that were true. Paul is not saying that if Christ didn't rise for All, Christ isn't Risen...
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@Rightglory
Misrepresentation, all will be risen to life in the last day, some unto condemnation, however 1 Cor 15 is about the elect, not the condemned non elect.
The condemned outside of Christ, not in Christ, will be raised by Him to damnation Jn 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now them that will experience the resurrection of damnation, are not the subjects of 1 Cor 15 only the ones unto the resurrection of life are.
Now others shall see more clearly your misrepresentation, and your false teaching
Misrepresentation, all will be risen to life in the last day, some unto condemnation, however 1 Cor 15 is about the elect, not the condemned non elect.
The condemned outside of Christ, not in Christ, will be raised by Him to damnation Jn 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now them that will experience the resurrection of damnation, are not the subjects of 1 Cor 15 only the ones unto the resurrection of life are.
Now others shall see more clearly your misrepresentation, and your false teaching
Heb 2:9 and 1 Jn 2:2 say nothing about any offer to mankind, thats more deception, and both of those scriptures are about the elect
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