Limited atonement !

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CadyandZoe

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The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it.
The doctrine of Limited Atonement is predicated on an incorrect theory of the atonement.

The Calvinist view of the atonement is centered on the theological framework established by John Calvin during the Protestant Reformation. It emphasizes the concept of "penal substitutionary atonement." This means that Christ's death on the cross was a substitutionary sacrifice, where He took the penalty of sin upon Himself on behalf of those He came to save. According to this view, God's justice demanded punishment for human sin, but in His mercy, He provided Christ as the one to bear that punishment.

I disagree with this view. The New Testament's picture of the atonement is quite different.
 
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Hey You!

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The doctrine of Limited Atonement is predicated on an incorrect theory of the atonement.

The Calvinist view of the atonement is centered on the theological framework established by John Calvin during the Protestant Reformation. It emphasizes the concept of "penal substitutionary atonement." This means that Christ's death on the cross was a substitutionary sacrifice, where He took the penalty of sin upon Himself on behalf of those He came to save. According to this view, God's justice demanded punishment for human sin, but in His mercy, He provided Christ as the one to bear that punishment.

I disagree with this view. The New Testament's picture of the atonement is quite different.
@CadyandZoe , raising Penal Substitutionary Atonement as an undermining objection, won't give a Calvinist a good reason to second guess Limited Atonement. Raising it will only serve to distract them or derail the Thread...

It's good that you recognize beliefs which undergird Limited Atonement. By removing a belief's support structure, the Belief can no longer stand. PSA will always stand, because Isaiah 53 is used to prove Jesus is the Christ. When we use it for that; the other things within it, are established. He suffered the Penalty for our Sins; this establishes our claim of Substitution. Also, Abraham Sacrificing the Ram instead of his Son, draws the Church a picture of Substitutionary Atonement. Denying this, is not the way to undermine Limited Atonement; but it may leed the uninitiated Christian toward your views...

There's no way you can talk Calvinists out of PSA...
 
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Rightglory

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I have already taken time to explain to you my views before. Rom 5:18-19 they are about the elect
So you keep saying, however, I'm asking about those that are not mentioned regarding life. In another post you say the non-elect will be resurrected in the last day. Where in scripture does it say that they received life in order to stand in judgement. You make the same claim for Rom 5:12. If that ONLY refers to the elect, where are the non-elect. It seems your theology leaves them two options. They lived perfect lives and were translated to eternal life, or they are all still alive having lived perfect sinless lives.
Per Scripture your theory of a limited atonement has no evidence. What you say, just shows all the inconsistancies your view has vis-a-vie scripture.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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His gift of salvation is offered to every human being.
I believe that is the message humanity is supposed to receive ... whosoever.
I John 2:2. This second part man has a role to play.
Yes, propitiation for the whole world is a very deep concept. What I am saying is that predestination (election), the foreknowledge of God is a valid doctrine, but mysterious. It shouldn't be labeled, packaged and wrapped in a neat box called TULIP.
Calvin over-stepped the boundaries of the unknown to formulate this extra- Biblical theology that the "Reformed Clan" envelop themselves in, segregated from the rest of us ... what appears to be a cold, superiority complex.

There is nothing limited, He so loved the world that whosoever believeth on Him shall have eternal life
I agree.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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@Ronald David Bruno


I started this thread to show why for my conviction, I cant help it if you dont share the same, nevertheless if you reject limited effectual atonement, you have no Gospel Message that Glorifies God/Christ
A talking point is useless without evidence to back it up. It's like the irresponsible and unemployed young folks getting behind a BLM protest, holding up signs, marching and clanging their cymbals; but when asked what it is all about, spew out superficial ignorant phrases, attacking others, without reason.
 

Rightglory

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Limited atonement is the blessed truth that God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ became incarnate in order to satisfy all the conditions of the salvation of God's elect, sheep, His Church and, thereby, acquire for them all grace here and all glory hereafter, an eternal redemption Heb 9:12. Christ's finished work, His bloody sacrifice of His sinless humanity upon the altar of His infinite Deity, was the culmination of His whole work of redemption.
How can you even use the word "Incarnate" and limited atonement in the same phrase. They are categorically, diametrically opposite of each other.
Maybe the question should be, do you know what the word means, what it entails?
This included His incarnation, obedience, and death, as the Representative and Substitute for chosen sinners. He was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross Phil. 2:6-8. Christ's entire satisfaction, the merit of His whole work of mediation, is called the Righteousness of God. This is the only ground of salvation, and it is revealed in the Gospel to those it was specifically for, the elect Rom 1:16-17.Definitely , Christ's righteousness is the entire merit of His whole work of redemption. It was brought in and established by the obedience unto death which Christ Himself accomplished as a Substitute/Surety for His people. Rom 5:19 Christ's righteousness alone demands the salvation of every sinner whom He represented (God's elect). 8
Part of your error in understanding limited atonement is using words like 'representative". Christ was not a representative. This again is not what Incarnation means, yet you use it also. Christ is US, He is precisely the very same person in His human nature are you and I are. As was Adam. Christ does not have any "chosen" sinners.
Rom 5:6-8. says Christ died for sinners, not chosen sinners. No place in all of scripture does it ever say, "chosen sinners". This corresponds with I John 2:2. And that death He died for sinners is restated clearly in Heb 2:9. He tasted death for everyone. Might also reiterate that this death was the same that all men share, the curse, the judgement upon all men because of Adam's sin. Which is why it is impossible for Christ to die ONLY for some men, when all men were condemned through our human nature, we became mortal. This is what I Cor 15:21-22 says so clearly.
 
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brightfame52

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So you keep saying, however, I'm asking about those that are not mentioned regarding life. In another post you say the non-elect will be resurrected in the last day. Where in scripture does it say that they received life in order to stand in judgement. You make the same claim for Rom 5:12. If that ONLY refers to the elect, where are the non-elect. It seems your theology leaves them two options. They lived perfect lives and were translated to eternal life, or they are all still alive having lived perfect sinless lives.
Per Scripture your theory of a limited atonement has no evidence. What you say, just shows all the inconsistancies your view has vis-a-vie scripture.
I have already taken time to explain to you my views before
 

brightfame52

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A talking point is useless without evidence to back it up. It's like the irresponsible and unemployed young folks getting behind a BLM protest, holding up signs, marching and clanging their cymbals; but when asked what it is all about, spew out superficial ignorant phrases, attacking others, without reason.
You talking about yourself, you reject the limited atonement and havent proved it wrong, and cant
 

brightfame52

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How can you even use the word "Incarnate" and limited atonement in the same phrase. They are categorically, diametrically opposite of each other.
Maybe the question should be, do you know what the word means, what it entails?

Part of your error in understanding limited atonement is using words like 'representative". Christ was not a representative. This again is not what Incarnation means, yet you use it also. Christ is US, He is precisely the very same person in His human nature are you and I are. As was Adam. Christ does not have any "chosen" sinners.
Rom 5:6-8. says Christ died for sinners, not chosen sinners. No place in all of scripture does it ever say, "chosen sinners". This corresponds with I John 2:2. And that death He died for sinners is restated clearly in Heb 2:9. He tasted death for everyone. Might also reiterate that this death was the same that all men share, the curse, the judgement upon all men because of Adam's sin. Which is why it is impossible for Christ to die ONLY for some men, when all men were condemned through our human nature, we became mortal. This is what I Cor 15:21-22 says so clearly.
You deny the scripture evidence. Nothing else will help you
 

CadyandZoe

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@CadyandZoe



Thats not a good way to see the Gospel friend.
The doctrine of limited atonement is fundamentally based on the penal substitution theory, which posits that Christ died as a substitute for sinners, bearing the punishment they deserved. Therefore, if one were to reject the penal substitution theory, it would inevitably weaken or undermine the doctrine of limited atonement, as the two concepts are intricately linked. Without the framework of penal substitution, the justification for limited atonement loses its foundational support.

Many Christians have adopted the substitution doctrine of atonement without thoroughly examining its implications or reflecting deeply on its meaning. They hold the belief that humanity is in debt to the justice of God, a concept that emphasizes the seriousness of sin and its consequences. In their perspective, God's mercy shines through as He offered a monumental solution to this dilemma. His son, Jesus, out of profound love and compassion, willingly took on the punishment that was rightfully deserved by mankind. In this selfless act, Jesus effectively settled our debt to divine justice, providing a path toward redemption and reconciliation with God.

The prevalent interpretation of atonement often diverges from biblical teachings. While it is clear that Jesus offered his life as a profound sacrifice for our forgiveness, the notion that he "paid" for our sins is a misunderstanding that has crept into Christian theology. This perspective frames the atonement in economic terms, suggesting that it is acceptable for an innocent individual to bear the punishment for the sins of others, which raises significant moral questions. Furthermore, the substitution theory proposes that our sin debt has been settled as if it were a transaction, whereas the Scriptures emphasize that our sins are not merely paid for but genuinely forgiven, highlighting a deeper, more relational aspect of redemption.

Is the atonement limited to the elect? Most certainly. But not for the reason that Calvin suggested.
 

brightfame52

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The doctrine of limited atonement is fundamentally based on the penal substitution theory, which posits that Christ died as a substitute for sinners, bearing the punishment they deserved. Therefore, if one were to reject the penal substitution theory, it would inevitably weaken or undermine the doctrine of limited atonement, as the two concepts are intricately linked. Without the framework of penal substitution, the justification for limited atonement loses its foundational support.

Many Christians have adopted the substitution doctrine of atonement without thoroughly examining its implications or reflecting deeply on its meaning. They hold the belief that humanity is in debt to the justice of God, a concept that emphasizes the seriousness of sin and its consequences. In their perspective, God's mercy shines through as He offered a monumental solution to this dilemma. His son, Jesus, out of profound love and compassion, willingly took on the punishment that was rightfully deserved by mankind. In this selfless act, Jesus effectively settled our debt to divine justice, providing a path toward redemption and reconciliation with God.

The prevalent interpretation of atonement often diverges from biblical teachings. While it is clear that Jesus offered his life as a profound sacrifice for our forgiveness, the notion that he "paid" for our sins is a misunderstanding that has crept into Christian theology. This perspective frames the atonement in economic terms, suggesting that it is acceptable for an innocent individual to bear the punishment for the sins of others, which raises significant moral questions. Furthermore, the substitution theory proposes that our sin debt has been settled as if it were a transaction, whereas the Scriptures emphasize that our sins are not merely paid for but genuinely forgiven, highlighting a deeper, more relational aspect of redemption.

Is the atonement limited to the elect? Most certainly. But not for the reason that Calvin suggested.
The only sin debt Christ took care of was for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And it was a vicarious death for them !
 

Ronald David Bruno

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You talking about yourself, you reject the limited atonement and havent proved it wrong, and cant
Your entire argument is the same baseless, repetitious rant over and over ... just like those protesters who cannot defend their position. They just keep marching, clanging their cymbals and holding up their signs.
 

Rightglory

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You talking about yourself, you reject the limited atonement and havent proved it wrong, and cant
Wow, I think you are the only one that has supported "limited atonement" on this thread. Might be one other.
I have shown biblical evidence it is false. I have presented theological arguments that it is false.
I have shown historically it is false.
I have shown that it was declared a heresy by the Church in 1672.
However, most importantly you have not shown any support from scripture, whatsoever other than your personal assertions, and a total erroneous spin on inserting words that are not in scripture. Your building a theory mostly on your assertions then attempt to find a text or two to use but cannot without changing the wording to suit your assertion. I must admit you are very good at developing this false theory. I don't know about Calvin, but I think that he did not do this. As far as I know, Luther, held a universal redemption, but I could be wrong on that. Obviously the Armenians did not since it was Calvin that developed his theory in opposition to Armenius.
 
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Dan Clarkston

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Limited atonement is the blessed truth

"Limited atonement"... is a satanic lie is what it is.

How do you know God decided to not include YOU in the atonement?

Maybe he decided to leave you out and you will burn in hell for eternity!
eek3.gif




Rom 5:18-19 they are about the elect

That what the false brethren that follow the unrepentant murder John Calvin keep sayin... but they be mistaken and fakin the bacon which they will find out when the future gets here funny.gif




Yes they are, there is no other alternative

That's what the demons keep telling the calvinists!
devil_smiley5.gif




Nothing about it being made possible to believe in Him,more of your garbage

There you go again.... claiming God's Word contains lies and the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ Who directed the biblical writes concerning what to write is a liar.

That ends badly rubba bubba.. as you will learn about apparently the hard way! agree.gif







if you reject limited effectual atonement, you have no Gospel Message that Glorifies God/Christ

The false doctrines of limited atonement claim the Lord Jesus is a liar! clueless-doh.gif