The Coming Rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

I guess you haven't figured out that I don't have doctrinal biases. The sledgehammer was put away a long time ago.


Isaiah 61
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

The day of vengeance is one year long. That is how long the wrath of God............those trumpets and vials will be on the earth.

It's so odd how you admit that you have a dilemma because of passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, but you still stubbornly insist on this one year long day of vengeance nonsense. I don't understand you. We're just repeating ourselves at this point, so I'm done unless you have anything new to offer.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, those who die believing in JESUS…GOD will bring with HIM.
John 10:
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

You're talking about their souls, right? That's not what he's talking about. He's saying that they had previously been raptured and brought back to heaven and then Jesus comes from heaven again with Him and rapture those who are alive and remain. Total nonsense.

 

[ewq1938]

It the new spiritual body will raised from the old natural body at His coming.

Nope. Paul said the new body was already in heaven and that was nearly 2000 years ago. That means the new body already exists and does not come from the old body.

 

[Taken]

You're talking about their souls, right? That's not what he's talking about. He's saying that they had previously been raptured and brought back to heaven and then Jesus comes from heaven again with Him and rapture those who are alive and remain. Total nonsense.

The confusion arises when “People”, fail to understand, the Whole of a man, (body, soul, spirit)…
And WHO is (Sanctifying, Claiming, Redeeming,) What of a man, WHEN, and WHY, and HOW.

Angels “ARE”…”A singular” Spirit.
Humans “HAVE” a spirit.
(A “humans spirit” IS his “natural” Truth IN his Heart)

God “IS” A Spirit.
God “HAS” multiple “spirits”, (which derive from, ARE of, ARE Gods Same One Spirit).

Gods culmination of “spirits”, collectively…
“IS” His …Totality of Supreme POWER, Supreme GLORY, Supreme HOLINESS.
(Thus, to Say, God Gives HIS Glory TO No one, in other words, God gives to no one The “essence of The entirety of ALL of His “spirits”,)

God “OFFERED” His Spirit Of Life, His Spirit of Truth…To the Whole World of Human occupants “of” this world.

THAT Spirit of Life and Truth is called: by One Name:
Jesus.
THAT Spirit of Life and Truth is called: by Multiple Titles and Descriptions:
Child
Christ
Messiah
Son of God
Word of God
Advocate
Truth
Light
Savior
Lamb
Good Shepherd
Rock
Bridegroom
Almighty
Lord
Teacher
High Priest
Rabbi
Faithful
True
Holy
I Am
Seed
Judge
King
Father

The Conundrum…
For 4 Thousand Years…
The Human Race was NOT Offered nor was “Literally” Given … “Salvation” (of their soul)
…UNTIL AFTER their Physical Bodily Death.
Same holds True.

A rebirth of a human, can Not occur Until After A Death.

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


2 thousand + years Ago….(to these days);
A NEW Offering was Revealed.
* a human COULD ( by his own truth (natural spirit in his Heart), Confess, His Belief, IN the Lord God, Promise his Body unto the authority of the Lord God, via Crucifixion WITH JESUS’ crucified Body, AND Spiritually Live IN Christ Jesus’ Risen Body….
To the Day, their own physical body dies and is Risen UP “glorified”.
(They, thus ARE prepared to “have fulfilled the Requirement, of One Bodily Death,”Before being Qualified to Receive…
Salvation of their Soul
And
Quickening (Rebirth) of their Spirit.

This IS …he who IS IN Christ
This is he…whom Christ Jesus Spirit IS IN
This IS…he who IS IN Jesus’ HAND
This IS…he whom Christ Jesus Redeems.
(first the physically dead, then those crucified with Jesus)

WHEN? (Continued)

 

[Taken]

WHEN (continued)

When considers the ancient History of Gods INTENT, PLEASURE, JOY, DISAPPOINTMENT, REACTION, RESULT.

Inanutshell-
God created, made, loves what He created and made…and is full of Joy when His creations freely choose to Love Him and His Creations IN Return.
God IS Disappointed, Angry When His Creations Deny, Reject Him and fail to accredit Him for His Provisions.

God ONCE Destroyed the Humans (saving only 8, out of millions) and Destroyed the humans habitat….Earth.

The whole world has been WARNED…
* Nothing New
Gods Disappointment and Anger IS AGAIN waxing, increasing…AND AGAIN when humans Least Expect, Are unprepared, God Shall Again Send Tribulations, Chaos, Death and Destruction UPON the Face of The Earth.

Nothing New…

Gen 6:
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Inasmuch as God was Angry and set on destroying the Earth and its Inhabitants…

Exactly HOW did God “Save the Faithful 8 humans” from being Destroyed With the Earth, And From the face of the Earth?

God Directed Faithful Noah, ON HOW, God would INSTRUCT Noah to “BE” prepared to “Escape”, the coming destruction of Gods Tribulations.

Preparations…
God to Noah…
Noah YOU prepare by building This Ark, in this fashion and enter on this such n such day.

And Noah DID.
And Seven days later, the Rain began.
And days later, Oceans water IN the Earth Gushed upward upon the Earth…

And?
The ARK lifted upward, to WHERE?

The clouds, Above the Earth. (Lower Heavens).

Gen 7:
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Nothing New.

Prepared IN Christ…
1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
^^^ above The Earth!!
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rapture. (Body, soul, spirit)
They in Christ Jesus’ hand.

And THOSE Not IN Christ??

* Death upon the face of the Earth.

And those IN Not in Christ, on the face of the Earth…WHO During the Tribulations, Believe IN God, believe IN Jesus…
What?
Bodily Die…AND God Saves their Soul…
Soul rises to Heaven.
Body dead on Earth.

1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
They in Gods Hand.

First Resurrection, Their Body is raised Glorified.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[The Light]

The Gt is 2 parts.
That is a no brainer.

Have 2 timeframes in the gt does not remove the length of it.
You are...once again....hung up over definitions

You should be hung up by definitions, so you know what is going on. There is NO a 7 year Great Tribulation. That is impossible. The Great Tribulation does not start until the midst of the week. The AOD being set up begins the great tribulation. There are only 1335 days from that point. Please study the scriptures below. There is no 7 year great tribulation. You need to get your definitions right.

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.



Daniel 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

I have never, nor ever will, say the 7 yr gt does not have wrath at the second part.

And that is exactly why you will never understand the book of Revelation. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God has not begun yet.

I'm tired of quoting Matthew 24 and the events of the 6th seal which both contain the signs of the sun, moon and stars. If you can't conclude that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal, with that information, there's nothing I can do.

Until you understand that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is not the coming of Jesus in Revelation 19, you just will not understand. This is simple logic..............IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

But you have some block to think that trib can not contain wrath, and wrath can not contain trib.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal. If you can't see this, nothing I can do.

BTW
Take a look at the 4 horsemen. Millions killed.
Not necessarily Jews or believers.
That is at the beginning ot the gt 7 yr period.
So where in that early slaughter of earth's population, can we we say " trib is only the devil persecution of believers"...when in the wrath part of the trib we see God killing unbelievers.????
They Both are killing unbelievers in both sections of the wrath and trib.
Crunch the numbers
Look at the millions killed by horsemen sent from heaven , at the START of the gt, and ask yourself why you can not call that wrath???

The great tribulation cannot begin until the abomination of desolation of desolation is set up. The four horsemen are the beginning of sorrows. The Church will be in heaven before this occurs.

You are saying all the martyrs killed during the gt were not saved?
All those currently in the grave are not saved?
Only posttibbers are saved?

I have never seen anyone draw so many false conclusions of what I am saying. Please feel free to highlight my posts that say that the martyrs killed during the GT were not saved.

For starters, you need to figure out that the GT is not 7 years long as it does not begin until the AOD is set up in the midst of the week.

 

[The Light]

I told him that also, but you were more eloquent.

Great. But he is wrong. The 6th seal is not the 7th seal. Pretty simple. The 7th seal contains 7 trumpets and 7 vials. The seventh seal is not just the 7th trumpet and 7 vial.

 

[The Light]

No
They meet the resurrected in the air immediately.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
Dead in Christ along with the living.

The dead in Christ rise first. This is the barley harvest. The alive remain until the end of summer, the wheat harvest.

The barley and wheat cakes are presented on Pentecost. But only barley is harvested at Pentecost in the spring. Wheat is harvested at the end of summer.

 

[The Light]

1) you put a gap in there that is not there.

Barley is harvested in the spring. Wheat is harvested at the end of summer. Together they are the grain harvest.

2) the dead in Christ that are currently in the grave are raised at the rapture of 1 thes 4.

The dead in Christ are raised first. They go to heaven.

3) Jesus brings the " 'dead' spirits" (without bodies), ALREADY IN HEAVEN, with him at the rapture.

Jesus brings the dead with Him when He returns for the alive that remain.

4) it is as if you totally miss what is happening at the graves opening up ( 1 thes 4).
5) what is resurrected????
Where are the spirits currently of those currently in the grave?????
You do not know they come with him without glorified bodies, and enter the new bodies?????
Totally rotted bodies are somehow rebuilt instantly. But the SAME SPIRIT that went to heaven 100 yrs ago re enters that new body.

THAT is >>>> "he brings with him those that died"

It's as if you totally miss that barley and wheat are not harvest at the same time.

 

[The Light]

How did the innumerable number get to heaven?
(A harvest so large nobody can count them.)

First the dead in Christ rose and Jesus took them to heaven.
Then Jesus returned for the alive that remained and brought the dead in Christ with Him.

Then at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation, Jesus comes for a harvest. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth, seen in Revelation 14.

This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Two raptures, grain and fruit.

What feast depicts them?

Pentecost depicts the dead in Christ being raptured. The alive remain until the end of summer, the Feast of New Wine. This is when the Holy Spirit was given to the Church. It's likely Tu B'Av is involved in some way as it is the taking of the Gentile bride.

Then the Feast of Trumpets is the gathering from heaven and earth. The fruit is gathered from the earth, the Jewish harvest. That is why grapes are harvested in Revelation 14 and cast into the wrath of God.

Remember it is declared that the times of the Gentiles must be completed.
Why must they be completed?

To provoke jealously in the Jews. Revelation 11. Blindness is removed from part of Israel. Revelation 11.

The gt is JACOBS TROUBLE...or ISRAEL'S TROUBLE.

No doubt.

7!!!!
7 YEARS!!!!!

Miriam was judged 7 days
Nebachanezer was judge 7 years.

Jacob worked 7 years more for Rachel, the chosen bride.

The final week will begin when a covenant with many is MADE. However, the great tribulation will not begin until the AOD is set up in the midst of the week. When that covenant with many is made the clock starts.

Jesus said "...those days shortened"
Those days (7 years), are shortened at Rev 14.

The 7 years are not shortened. It is the great tribulation that is shortened. Tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing. The wrath of God is not shortened. It will be one year long.

If the great tribulation is not shortened, there would be no flesh that is raptured alive. All that attain salvation would have to be raised from the dead.

Rev 14 is 100% Jewsish harvests.
Firstfruits is the 144k, main harvest OF "JEWS ONLY" ,is by Jesus sitting on a cloud.

Exactly. This harvest occurs immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. This is the 6th seal harvest seen in Revelation 14 which is the second coming. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. There are two raptures. Jacob had two brides.

Wheat and barley is Gentiles.
Fruit harvest is Jews only.

Wheat and barley are the Church. This is the grain harvest. Wheat and barley are not harvested at the same time...........hence, the dead in Christ rise first and the alive remain until the wheat harvest.

Fruit is Jews as they are found as grapes in the wilderness.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Nope. Paul said the new body was already in heaven and that was nearly 2000 years ago. That means the new body already exists and does not come from the old body.

Actually scripture speaks of our physical body being resurrected.

Paul was speaking on his spiritual body

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:40-
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 

[Keraz]

Actually scripture speaks of our physical body being resurrected.

Only for the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4-6 ........the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually scripture speaks of our physical body being resurrected.

No, it doesn't. Again, Paul spoke of the new spiritual body being in heaven, and his mortal body was still alive when he taught this. That's two bodies for the saved. One is the mortal body, and after death the saved would receive the new body that's from heaven which means the old body is not used again. Only the unsaved return to their old sinful dead body at their resurrection.

 

[Davy]

Only the unsaved return to their old sinful dead body at their resurrection.

Yet that idea is not written. Apostle Paul was pulling from Isaiah 25 where he quoted the death swallowed up in victory idea, as it's a future event that happens upon all... peoples on the day Jesus returns. The flesh of all... peoples will be cast off. There won't be some walking around in spiritual bodies while others are walking around still in flesh bodies, that idea is from those who think with their flesh.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The dead in Christ rise first. This is the barley harvest. The alive remain until the end of summer, the wheat harvest.

The barley and wheat cakes are presented on Pentecost. But only barley is harvested at Pentecost in the spring. Wheat is harvested at the end of summer.

Everybody agrees the dead rise first.
Those alive neet them in the air.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
1 these 4
Matt 25
Matt 24
Rev19

Without that understanding, which you never include, you will never get end times correct
(Taking a line from your replies)

 

[JLB]

Nope. Paul said the new body was already in heaven and that was nearly 2000 years ago. That means the new body already exists and does not come from the old body.

No he didn’t.

The resurrected body of Jesus Christ was eternal in the heavens.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Only for the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4-6 ........the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over.

No, all that are saved will have their bodies resurrected and will like Jesus received a glorified body.

Christians will return with Jesus at the end and will reign with Him during the 1000 years.

Soul sleep is false doctrine...

the unsaved return to their old sinful dead body at their resurrection.

And the saved will receive glorified bodies like Jesus has right now we are joint heirs with Him so we get a glorified body like He has.

Without that understanding, which you never include, you will never get end times correct

Exactly.

The resurrected body of Jesus Christ was eternal in the heavens.

The resurrected body of Jesus Christ IS eternal in the heavens and will be forever as well.

 

[The Light]

Everybody agrees the dead rise first.
Those alive neet them in the air.

Right. When the Lord returns for the alive that remain, he brings the dead in Christ with Him.

Barley is not harvested at the same time as wheat.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Right. When the Lord returns for the alive that remain, he brings the dead in Christ with Him.

And... that's when believers will be getting their glorified bodies just like Jesus has right now seated at the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven.

 

[rebuilder 454]

First the dead in Christ rose and Jesus took them to heaven.
Then Jesus returned for the alive that remained and brought the dead in Christ with Him.

Then at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation, Jesus comes for a harvest. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth, seen in Revelation 14.

This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Two raptures, grain and fruit.


Pentecost depicts the dead in Christ being raptured. The alive remain until the end of summer, the Feast of New Wine. This is when the Holy Spirit was given to the Church. It's likely Tu B'Av is involved in some way as it is the taking of the Gentile bride.

Then the Feast of Trumpets is the gathering from heaven and earth. The fruit is gathered from the earth, the Jewish harvest. That is why grapes are harvested in Revelation 14 and cast into the wrath of God.

To provoke jealously in the Jews. Revelation 11. Blindness is removed from part of Israel. Revelation 11.

No doubt.

Jacob worked 7 years more for Rachel, the chosen bride.

The final week will begin when a covenant with many is MADE. However, the great tribulation will not begin until the AOD is set up in the midst of the week. When that covenant with many is made the clock starts.

The 7 years are not shortened. It is the great tribulation that is shortened. Tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing. The wrath of God is not shortened. It will be one year long.

If the great tribulation is not shortened, there would be no flesh that is raptured alive. All that attain salvation would have to be raised from the dead.


Exactly. This harvest occurs immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. This is the 6th seal harvest seen in Revelation 14 which is the second coming. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. There are two raptures. Jacob had two brides.

Wheat and barley are the Church. This is the grain harvest. Wheat and barley are not harvested at the same time...........hence, the dead in Christ rise first and the alive remain until the wheat harvest.

Fruit is Jews as they are found as grapes in the wilderness.

One of the most thorough exposition on the 70th week

No student of eschatology should omit this teaching.
Without a understanding of Daniel, and the purpose of the trib,as well as a study on the bride, end times will be misunderstood