Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[Eternally Grateful]

The early church was all Jewish.... The Jewish believers then who became His church

Recall not all Israel is of Israel, it is not the Jewish descendants according to the flesh that God blesses with salvation, but those born again by the Spirit who are the children of His promise to Abraham.

Paul discusses this subject in Romans. The Jews were brought back to the land already thousands of years ago.

The church is what God is all about today, not real estate.

There was NEVER any promise God gave to the Jews that He would save them all. Those of the generation that grumbled, complained, strove with God, He destroyed them all, and their children came into the promised land because they entered by faith.

Romans 9

Israel’s Rejection of Christ​

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my [a]countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose​

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Present Condition of Israel​

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

You did not answer my question.

The northern kingdom of Israel was dispersed by Assyria because of her sins against God according to Lev 26.

The southern kingdom of Judah was dispersed 1st by Babylon. and then completely by Rome in 70 AD.

God said he would restore these two nations. bring them back into their land. Make them one nation in the land again. And they will not longer do the sins that got them in trouble to begin with.

When did this happen?

Your answer fails, and is one of the many reasons WHY you have failed to prove premill incorrect

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God has not cast away any of His people whom He foreknew. This is true down to this very day. Only the elect, whom God foreknew will believe in Christ and inherit God's promises. And that work in them is done by God's grace.

Romans 11

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

Keep on Going bud

25 For I do not desire, brethren, (roman Gentile believers, or the unnatural branches) that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in

This blindness in part Paul spoke of in the first part of the chapter is just termporary. I will continue until a specific time. That time is the time of the fullness of the gentile


26 And so all Israel (those already saved and those who were blinded up until this point of time) will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; (Natural Israel)
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake,

The blinded jews are our enemy. they are enemies of the gospel

but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Concerning Gods promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they as a nation are still to be beloved. because they are Gods chosen to do a specific task on earth


29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Just like salvation to all people jew or gentile. Gods gifts can not be revoked. Israel can no longer lose her place with God here on earth as a jew or gentile believer in christ can lose their salvation in heaven

 

[CadyandZoe]

Define "significant portion"? Obviously, books like Daniel and Revelation contain a good amount of non-literal or figurative text, but I take most prophecy from other books literally, such as most of the prophecies that Jesus, Paul and Peter gave.

You defined it in your previous post. In your view, there is only two or three predicted events left to fulfill: the Second Advent, The judgement, and Eternity. What's left in your view?

You talk so much while saying so little The key to interpreting Bible prophecy is being able to differentiate between literal and non-literal text. No one thinks all of it is literal or all is non-literal.

I agree with your point. However, we disagree on the belief that all Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ. I noticed your earlier clarification, where you limited this belief to only those prophecies that pertain to Christ. However, this still presents a problem, as the Old Testament contains numerous unfulfilled predictions that are essential in defining His role during the millennial period.

@Eternally Grateful has pointed out several of these prophetic statements, which seem to go unanswered.

The latter, of course.

I'm talking about an objective examination, putting aside the Debate Question for the sake of knowledge and a clear headed apprehension of God's will for the future.

Who said that? Not me. Stop wasting your time making straw man arguments.
Of course. Did I ever say otherwise? No, I did not. Again, with the straw man arguments.
That is incorrect. You have no idea of what you're talking about.

I know what I read.

Let me ask you this. Did you ever "like" a post where the poster asks for NT proof of the Millennial period? Have you ever asked someone for New Testament (NT) proof of the millennial period? Have you considered why Amillennialists pose this challenge to Premillennialists? The reason is quite clear: Amillennialists do not regard the Old Testament (OT) as authoritative in relation to the period following the First Advent. This is why they are unlikely to accept OT evidence for a millennial period.

Amillennialists hold a distinct perspective regarding the authority of the Old Testament (OT) when it comes to interpreting events and theological concepts related to the time following the First Advent of Christ. They do not view the Old Testament as a primary source of authority for understanding the nature and duration of a millennial period—an era that some other theological frameworks argue for. This viewpoint stems from their belief that the fulfillment of biblical prophecy and the establishment of God’s kingdom were significantly altered by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Consequently, amillennialists are unlikely to accept or utilize Old Testament passages as valid evidence to support the notion of a literal millennial kingdom on Earth, emphasizing instead a more spiritual and non-literal interpretation of eschatology.

Do you deny this?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, it is, and you miss the context on a regular basis.

We apparently agree that context is king. So are you unwilling to examine the OT prophecies related to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We apparently agree that context is king. So are you unwilling to examine the OT prophecies related to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?

I had to stop responding to that user awhile ago..

 

[CadyandZoe]

I had to stop responding to that user awhile ago..

I respond because writing is a method that brings clarity for me. I value the process of putting ideas before me where I can see them, if you will.

Thanks. :)

 

[covenantee]

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Just like salvation to all people jew or gentile. Gods gifts can not be revoked. Israel can no longer lose her place with God here on earth as a jew or gentile believer in christ can lose their salvation in heaven

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts are bestowed exclusively upon His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable (without repentance).


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


God's calling is directed exclusively to His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable (without repentance).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I respond because writing is a method that brings clarity for me. I value the process of putting ideas before me where I can see them, if you will.

Thanks. :)

No issue there.

I just felt like I was beating a dead horse with him and another user.. so i stopped responding to them

 

[CadyandZoe]

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

From an exegetical standpoint, in Romans 11, Paul is discussing those who were currently enemies of the Gospel. The gifts and callings assigned to them are irrevocable.

God's calling is directed exclusively to His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

God calls others also. Speaking of Israel he says, "Out of Egypt I called my son."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

From an exegetical standpoint, in Romans 11, Paul is discussing those who were currently enemies of the Gospel. The gifts and callings assigned to them are irrevocable.

those being jews who are blinded in part.

No gentile saved or lost is part of this group

God calls others also. Speaking of Israel he says, "Out of Egypt I called my son."

yes.. fulfilled literally

 

[Eternally Grateful]

those being jews who are blinded in part.

No gentile saved or lost is part of this group

also. the gift God gave to them through Abraham Issac and jacob is irrevocable

yes.. fulfilled literally

 

[covenantee]

From an exegetical standpoint, in Romans 11, Paul is discussing those who were currently enemies of the Gospel. The gifts and callings assigned to them are irrevocable.

There are no enemies of the Gospel in the Scriptures I cited.

God calls others also. Speaking of Israel he says, "Out of Egypt I called my son."

There are no others also in the Scriptures I cited.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There are no enemies of the Gospel in the Scriptures I cited.

There are no others also in the Scriptures I cited.

Paul is making his case that God has not abandoned the sons of Jacob nor Israel as a nation in Romans 11. In that context he writes:

Romans 11:25-32 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, ​

​

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,​

He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.​

"This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”​

​

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.​

Romans 11:25-32 in the NASB focuses on God's overarching plan for both Jews and Gentiles in the context of salvation. Paul warns Gentile believers against becoming arrogant, explaining that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the full number of Gentiles is brought into God’s family. Ultimately, all Israel will be saved as foretold in Scripture, fulfilling God's promises.

Paul emphasizes that although Israel may seem opposed to the gospel now, they are still loved because of God’s covenant with their ancestors. God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable. Both Jews and Gentiles have been disobedient at different times, but God uses this to demonstrate His mercy to all.

The passage highlights God's faithfulness, mercy, and the fulfillment of His redemptive plan across humanity. It's a powerful reminder of humility and hope.

I highlighted the word "deliverer" in the passage above to make a point.

From a Christian perspective, salvation and deliverance are closely related but have distinct meanings and roles in faith:

Salvation: This refers to the ultimate rescue of a person from sin and its eternal consequences, achieved through Jesus Christ. It emphasizes reconciliation with God and the promise of eternal life. Salvation is often seen as a one-time event—when someone accepts Christ as their Savior—and is grounded in God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). It's about the soul's eternal destiny and relationship with God.

Deliverance: While related to salvation, deliverance typically refers to being set free from specific trials, challenges, or oppressions in life—whether spiritual, physical, or emotional. This can be an ongoing experience where God intervenes to help believers overcome evil, temptation, fear, or bondage (e.g., demonic influence or addiction). Deliverance is often seen as part of the believer's sanctification journey, reflecting God's ongoing work in their lives.

In short, salvation addresses eternal redemption, while deliverance focuses on temporal freedom in this life. Both reveal God's power, love, and faithfulness.

Paul emphasizes Jesus' pivotal role as the deliverer of Israel, drawing attention to His mission of providing not only spiritual salvation but also physical and temporal deliverance from the nation's adversaries. This deliverance is essential for Israel, as it allows the people to worship God freely and in peace without the constant threat of oppression and conflict. By highlighting this aspect of Jesus’ ministry, Paul underscores the importance of a restored relationship between Israel and God, made possible through Jesus, who brings both spiritual hope and a tangible sense of security for the nation. This dual focus on the divine and practical elements of deliverance serves to reinforce the belief that Jesus fulfills the messianic promises made to Israel.

Thus, the Millennial period.

 

[covenantee]

Paul is making his case that God has not abandoned the sons of Jacob nor Israel as a nation in Romans 11. In that context he writes:

Romans 11:25-32 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, ​

​

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,​

He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.​

"This is My covenant with them,​

When I take away their sins.”​

​

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.​

Romans 11:25-32 in the NASB focuses on God's overarching plan for both Jews and Gentiles in the context of salvation. Paul warns Gentile believers against becoming arrogant, explaining that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the full number of Gentiles is brought into God’s family. Ultimately, all Israel will be saved as foretold in Scripture, fulfilling God's promises.

Paul emphasizes that although Israel may seem opposed to the gospel now, they are still loved because of God’s covenant with their ancestors. God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable. Both Jews and Gentiles have been disobedient at different times, but God uses this to demonstrate His mercy to all.

The passage highlights God's faithfulness, mercy, and the fulfillment of His redemptive plan across humanity. It's a powerful reminder of humility and hope.

I highlighted the word "deliverer" in the passage above to make a point.

From a Christian perspective, salvation and deliverance are closely related but have distinct meanings and roles in faith:

Salvation: This refers to the ultimate rescue of a person from sin and its eternal consequences, achieved through Jesus Christ. It emphasizes reconciliation with God and the promise of eternal life. Salvation is often seen as a one-time event—when someone accepts Christ as their Savior—and is grounded in God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). It's about the soul's eternal destiny and relationship with God.

Deliverance: While related to salvation, deliverance typically refers to being set free from specific trials, challenges, or oppressions in life—whether spiritual, physical, or emotional. This can be an ongoing experience where God intervenes to help believers overcome evil, temptation, fear, or bondage (e.g., demonic influence or addiction). Deliverance is often seen as part of the believer's sanctification journey, reflecting God's ongoing work in their lives.

In short, salvation addresses eternal redemption, while deliverance focuses on temporal freedom in this life. Both reveal God's power, love, and faithfulness.

Paul emphasizes Jesus' pivotal role as the deliverer of Israel, drawing attention to His mission of providing not only spiritual salvation but also physical and temporal deliverance from the nation's adversaries. This deliverance is essential for Israel, as it allows the people to worship God freely and in peace without the constant threat of oppression and conflict. By highlighting this aspect of Jesus’ ministry, Paul underscores the importance of a restored relationship between Israel and God, made possible through Jesus, who brings both spiritual hope and a tangible sense of security for the nation. This dual focus on the divine and practical elements of deliverance serves to reinforce the belief that Jesus fulfills the messianic promises made to Israel.

Thus, the Millennial period.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You defined it in your previous post. In your view, there is only two or three predicted events left to fulfill: the Second Advent, The judgement, and Eternity. What's left in your view?

Why did you change the subject on me? We were talking in terms of literal and non-literal prophecies, not in terms of which prophecies have been fulfilled and which are yet to be fulfilled.

I agree with your point. However, we disagree on the belief that all Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ.

You have a serious reading comprehension problem. But, don't feel too bad. There are several others on this forum who share the same problem. I never said that "all Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ.". I even explicitly said that I don't believe that. Yet, here you are making that false accusation towards me.

What I actually did say, which should not be too hard to understand, is that the OT prophecies that were specifically about Christ have been fulfilled and I used Luke 24:44 to support that claim. Not all OT prophecies are specifically about Christ, right? So, how am I saying that "all Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ"? I'm not. Pay attention to what I'm actually saying.

I noticed your earlier clarification, where you limited this belief to only those prophecies that pertain to Christ.

Hello? Despite knowing this you still said what you did above which you know I don't claim? Why?

However, this still presents a problem, as the Old Testament contains numerous unfulfilled predictions that are essential in defining His role during the millennial period.

Such as? Keep in mind that what I'm saying is that He fulfilled the OT prophecies that actually specifically refer to the Messiah and I'm NOT saying that all OT prophecies that refer to things that relate to His reign or to His second coming and such ((but don't specifically refer to Him) have all been fulfilled. Do you understand what I'm saying?

@Eternally Grateful has pointed out several of these prophetic statements, which seem to go unanswered.

Oh, they've been answered. Just not in the way you accept.

I know what I read.

I disagree, obviously.

Let me ask you this. Did you ever "like" a post where the poster asks for NT proof of the Millennial period?

Not that I recall, but I'm not sure. Why do you ask?

Have you ever asked someone for New Testament (NT) proof of the millennial period?

Yep. Have you ever considered explaining why you are asking these questions?

Have you considered why Amillennialists pose this challenge to Premillennialists?

Why do I need to consider that when I am an Amillennialist myself and have asked that question myself? I don't need to consider it since I know why I, and other Amils, ask that question.

The reason is quite clear: Amillennialists do not regard the Old Testament (OT) as authoritative in relation to the period following the First Advent.

So? Why do you think that the NT was written if the OT already contains everything we need to know, as you seem to believe? To be clear, we don't say that the OT doesn't allude to that time period following the first advent, but we say that things related to that time period were purposely made obscure in the OT and made clear in the NT. Not sure why you would deny that in light of passages like this one...

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

So, tell me, is the Old Testament authoritative regarding the fact that Gentiles are "fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" following the first advent? Or was this hidden in OT times, as Paul said, and revealed in NT times instead?

This is why they are unlikely to accept OT evidence for a millennial period.

LOL. This is the wrong way of looking at all of this. That is not the issue. The issue is that Premills like you do not allow the NT to shed light on the OT for you. You think all of the answers are there in the OT and the NT is useless to you in terms of understanding OT prophecies.

Amillennialists hold a distinct perspective regarding the authority of the Old Testament (OT) when it comes to interpreting events and theological concepts related to the time following the First Advent of Christ. They do not view the Old Testament as a primary source of authority for understanding the nature and duration of a millennial period—an era that some other theological frameworks argue for.

So what? You say this as if this is some kind of refutation of Amillennialism, but it absolutely is not. It's unwise to not allow the NT to shed light on the OT for you.

This viewpoint stems from their belief that the fulfillment of biblical prophecy and the establishment of God’s kingdom were significantly altered by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

False! Are you purposely misrepresenting Amillennialism here? Be honest. I wouldn't put it past you. If not, then you are just incredibly ignorant. You tell me which is the case. What you are basically doing here is accusing Amills of believing that the NT contradicts the OT. Wrong! Instead, we do not believe anything was altered, but instead the NT illuminates our understanding of the OT prophecies.

Consequently, amillennialists are unlikely to accept or utilize Old Testament passages as valid evidence to support the notion of a literal millennial kingdom on Earth, emphasizing instead a more spiritual and non-literal interpretation of eschatology.

Because that is what is taught in the New Testament regarding that time period. What in the world are you suggesting here, that we should base our understanding of that time period, which we believe applies to the New Testament time period, entirely or at least mostly on the OT instead of the NT?

Do you deny this?

Yes, of course I deny your misrepresentation of what we believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We apparently agree that context is king. So are you unwilling to examine the OT prophecies related to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?

Sure, as long as you are willing to also look at what the NT says about them. I have this crazy thing where I like to allow the NT to help me understand the OT. I know that's not something you understand at all, but it's wise to do. Do you own a New Testament?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No issue there.

I just felt like I was beating a dead horse with him and another user.. so i stopped responding to them

That's fine, and, yet, for some reason you don't mind beating a dead horse with other people. Interesting. It seems that you only stop beating dead horses with people when you know you can't refute what they're saying.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Paul does not argue for the existence of multiple Israels, as you might be suggesting. Rather, his focus is on the singular promise made by God to the nation of Israel regarding their inheritance of eternal life as a unified people. Within this framework, Paul presents a nuanced argument: not all descendants of Jacob, the patriarch of Israel, will necessarily be part of what he refers to as the Israel of Promise. This distinction highlights the idea that inclusion in this divine promise is not automatic based solely on lineage, but rather involves a deeper spiritual significance and relationship with God. Thus, Paul's discourse invites a deeper examination of faith and the criteria for being considered part of God's promised people.

Throughout the course of Jesus' earthly ministry, he did not fully embrace or complete his role as the deliverer of Israel as many anticipated. This role remains unfulfilled, awaiting a future time ordained by God when He will decisively remove ungodliness from Jacob, the ancestral name for Israel. According to biblical prophecy, Jesus is expected to return, during which he will conquer and subdue the enemies of Israel, restoring the nation to a place of peace and security. Under his reign, Israel will thrive and live in dedicated service to God, free from fear and oppression, fully realizing the promises made to them. In this future era, not only will Israel be delivered from its adversaries, but it will also stand as a testament to the faithfulness of God amidst the nations.

At that time, all of Jacob's descendants will follow and believe in Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why did you change the subject on me? We were talking in terms of literal and non-literal prophecies, not in terms of which prophecies have been fulfilled and which are yet to be fulfilled.

We are discussing the fulfillment of prophecies, whether they should be taken literally or figuratively. At the core of Amillennialism is the claim that all the Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled. Your nuanced perspective, which suggests that only the prophecies concerning Jesus are fulfilled, does not adequately address this objection.

Yet, here you are making that false accusation towards me.

Poor little ol' you. Why is it your habit to degrade others with whom you disagree? Is your argument that weak?

What I actually did say, which should not be too hard to understand, is that the OT prophecies that were specifically about Christ have been fulfilled and I used Luke 24:44 to support that claim.

Jesus did not claim that all the prophecies in the Old Testament were fulfilled during His lifetime. Rather, His emphasis was on a specific event: the death of the Messiah. This was a significant prophecy that He wanted to highlight, illustrating how it was essential for this particular aspect of divine promise to be fulfilled. By focusing on this event, Jesus aimed to underscore the importance of the Messianic prophecies and their role in the overarching narrative of salvation history, showing that His death was a critical fulfillment of God's plan as outlined in the Scriptures.

Such as?

The following prophecy remains unfulfilled.

Psalm 110:1-3 The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, “Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”

Psalm 110:1-3 speaks of the exaltation of a divine king appointed by God. The psalm begins with God inviting the king to sit at His right hand, symbolizing a place of honor and authority, while God subdues the king's enemies. It portrays the king as ruling with power and strength, extending his reign and receiving the willing allegiance of his people. The imagery reflects both divine support and the majestic splendor of the king's leadership. It’s often interpreted as a Messianic prophecy in Christian tradition.

Yep. Have you ever considered explaining why you are asking these questions?

Have you never heard of rhetorical questions?

So? Why do you think that the NT was written if the OT already contains everything we need to know, as you seem to believe?

That's a strawman, I didn't say that. I maintain that the OT contains unfulfilled prophecies concerning the Messiah, which Amillennialists either ignore or explain away as allegorical.

To be clear, we don't say that the OT doesn't allude to that time period following the first advent, but we say that things related to that time period were purposely made obscure in the OT and made clear in the NT.

And you know this how? Taking it on faith?

So, tell me, is the Old Testament authoritative regarding the fact that Gentiles are "fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" following the first advent? Or was this hidden in OT times, as Paul said, and revealed in NT times instead?

Many people tend to misinterpret the teachings of Paul, especially when he discusses the profound mystery surrounding Christ. It’s important to clarify that the mystery he refers to is not about the inclusion of the Gentiles as fellow heirs to the promises made by God, as evidenced by James, who cites the Old Testament to affirm their place in this divine inheritance. Rather, the true "mystery" of Christ lies in the necessity of his suffering and death for the salvation of his people.

As you've noted, there was a pivotal moment when Jesus needed to enlighten the hearts and minds of his disciples. He had to help them comprehend the revelations laid out in the Old Testament regarding the death, burial, and resurrection of the Messiah. This revelation was critical, for without this understanding, the significance of his sacrifices could remain obscured. Thus, the mystery encompasses not only the reality of Christ's atoning work but also the unfolding of God's redemptive plan throughout history, which is often overlooked by those not fully grasping the scriptural context.

The issue is that Premills like you do not allow the NT to shed light on the OT for you. You think all of the answers are there in the OT and the NT is useless to you in terms of understanding OT prophecies.

We hold the New Testament (NT) perspective on the Old Testament (OT) in high regard and recognize its significance in understanding the entirety of scripture. However, when we encounter instances where NT commentary appears to be insufficient or lacking in detail, we refrain from the practice of allegorizing the Old Testament simply to align it with our preconceived notions or beliefs. Instead, we strive to interpret the OT within its own historical and literary context, ensuring that our interpretations remain grounded in the text itself, rather than conforming it to our prior assumptions.

False! Are you purposely misrepresenting Amillennialism here? Be honest. I wouldn't put it past you. If not, then you are just incredibly ignorant. You tell me which is the case. What you are basically doing here is accusing Amills of believing that the NT contradicts the OT. Wrong! Instead, we do not believe anything was altered, but instead the NT illuminates our understanding of the OT prophecies.

I contend that many Christians who affirm the Amillennial view never read the OT, let alone understand it.

Because that is what is taught in the New Testament regarding that time period. What in the world are you suggesting here, that we should base our understanding of that time period, which we believe applies to the New Testament time period, entirely or at least mostly on the OT instead of the NT?

I disagree. There is no compelling reason to assert that Revelation chapter 20 should be interpreted metaphorically. The chapter provides a vivid and straightforward depiction of events that many believe are meant to be taken literally, particularly concerning the concept of the Millennial period. However, for those who approach Revelation 20 from a figurative standpoint, they may understandably draw interpretations that align with their perspective. In that case, they might find a wealth of insights and information regarding the Millennial reign of Christ within the broader context of the New Testament. This leads to a diverse range of misunderstandings about the nature and significance of the Millennial period, shaped by various theological frameworks and interpretations.

I assert that when one examines the Old Testament prophecies through a lens of objectivity and careful analysis, it becomes clear that Revelation 20 should be interpreted in a literal manner. This perspective is supported by the earlier prophetic texts that outline specific events and descriptions, suggesting a consistent framework within which these eschatological themes are presented. By approaching the scripture without preconceived notions or biases, one can appreciate the textual nuances and take the implications of the prophecy at face value, thus reinforcing the argument for a straightforward interpretation of Revelation 20.

 

[Scott Downey]

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts are bestowed exclusively upon His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable (without repentance).


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


God's calling is directed exclusively to His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable (without repentance).

Good set of scripture resources about our individual calling and election. And it is personal not national or corporate.
We are individually called by the Lord to be His saints. And it's for those God has chosen. We did not love God, God loved us first, then we loved God.

1 Corinthians 1
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are [a]sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

****************

26 For [k]you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many [l]noble, are called.

27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the [m]base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”