Is it possible to be SCRIPTURALLY CORRECT AND NOT BE SPIRITUALLY CORRECT?

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VictoryinJesus

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When Paul says that women are not allowed to speak in church, I would take that to mean that he doesn't think women should speak in church.
As says the law is key there (I think)
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


Significant to me is the above. I’ve always wondered why God would gag the mouth to not speak of beautiful things. Things so wonderful…they are not permitted to speak. but for me the question became: have I assumed God is the One who permitted such beautiful things to not be spoken? Or was it men who permitted them not to be spoken? Looking at how men wanted to shut up Jesus Christ from speaking of things (he seen and heard of the Father), they didn’t want those things to be heard or spoken. I think I assumed to quick it was God who said it’s unlawful to speak of such things …like the Pharisees and Sadducee’s kept saying “it’s unlawful” what this man does and says. To which Christ replied “I only do what I see My Father do. And I only say what I hear My Father say.” To which they cried “Silence Him!” “He speaks blasphemous things against God!”
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Okay--as history has away of repeating and because of foretold strong delusion, what would you say those knowledgeable of the scriptures are likely, likewise now missing among the gentile churches?
Well as I do not scrutinize churches, but focus on the church I worship in , I could only guess vaguely. I know many of the mainline denominations have gone very cold both in spirit life and in Scriptural knowledge.

So I would leave this to you to give us an answer
 

ScottA

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When Paul says that women are not allowed to speak in church, I would take that to mean that he doesn't think women should speak in church.
I get that. But repeating that you do not perceive the greater message to "all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord"...just means you are only looking at the lesser context and missing the greater message and context.
 
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Bob Estey

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As says the law is key there (I think)
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


Significant to me is the above. I’ve always wondered why God would gag the mouth to not speak of beautiful things. Things so wonderful…they are not permitted to speak. but for me the question became: have I assumed God is the One who permitted such beautiful things to not be spoken? Or was it men who permitted them not to be spoken? Looking at how men wanted to shut up Jesus Christ from speaking of things (he seen and heard of the Father), they didn’t want those things to be heard or spoken. I think I assumed to quick it was God who said it’s unlawful to speak of such things …like the Pharisees and Sadducee’s kept saying “it’s unlawful” what this man does and says. To which Christ replied “I only do what I see My Father do. And I only say what I hear My Father say.” To which they cried “Silence Him!” “He speaks blasphemous things against God!”
It's just that people say they Bible is the Word of God, and the Bible says women can't speak in a church.
 

Bob Estey

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I get that. But repeating that you do not perceive the greater message to "all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord"...just means you are only looking at the lesser context and missing the greater message and context.
You could use that argument to nullify anything in the Bible, couldn't you?
 

VictoryinJesus

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It's just that people say they Bible is the Word of God, and the Bible says women can't speak in a church.
People can say a lot of “that is what the Bible says”. And it does. I’m not disputing that. The Bible says a lot people use to subject lesser people to those higher. I’m not denying the tough verses. As a homemaker for 35 years doing the role of as the weaker vessel, if God says for women to not speak in Church, then so it is. I can vouch to where that path leads. The fruit of death.

But I don’t think that is what Paul is getting at. Not because I want to fight to speak in a church building, or stand behind the podium to lead a congregation instead of a man. I don’t even go to any church building to have a say for my (as a female) right to speak in the church building.

To me it’s more about the Nature of God, and what is said to be His Nature. Again, I don’t think that is what Paul was getting at, but it’s spoke or written in a way that will reveal the heart of putting those lower in the church under subjection …or it is regarding something no one wants to talk about. I’ve searched even YouTube and there is nothing in regards to “woman”. Only gender stuff about who’s on top. Nothing about the Adulterous Woman and the Free Woman. It’s key I think to this thread (as the law of sin unto death says, or as obedience unto the righteousness of Christ) and Paul’s putting it out there—as Christ often said hard things that revealed(exposed) the mind of the spirit. Let the Lords speak…the women keep silent. Either it is spiritual wickedness in high place that want to have people under them, or it’s the Spirit of no more fear unto bondage being of the Spirit of God. Not as lords over your faith, but as helpers. We are told to test the spirits. I seriously doubt the spirit in which Paul’s “let the women be silent” is widely interpreted is of God. Why? Because it suppresses, tears down, making those weaker in subjection to men. It makes men slobber to be the big head chief. And yes, even women slobbering to be behind the pulpit as the head chief now. Because it’s a high seat to be sought after. I also believe it’s not of God because I’ve had pastors come to our home and speak to my husband about his need for reconciliation to God, but wouldn’t even offer anything to me as if I wasn’t sitting there (invisible, unseen). Yet those same pastors will go to the home of a single woman and try to save her. Like I have to be single to be seen as worthy of hearing the gospel?! It’s all vanity I think. A bunch of puffed up patting on the back swapping. I’ve seen men in the church fight over a single mom with five children of whom gets her to do good acts on. Married men!

God’s Nature is “I will be weak that you be made strong.” As His Son revealed the Spirit of God “He who possessed all things became poor that we be made rich.” <the big elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about. He who possessed all gave it up so you could have. There is a message I think in Paul’s words about “the Woman” which he tells in Romans 7 —ironically it’s spoken to the men “which woman are you of?” How “by the body of Christ you have been made free” being of the Free Woman, and not of the Adulterous Woman. So why then put others of the same body in subjection under you as Lords?

Personally, I think the words “let the women be silent” is testing the spirit to reveal..make manifest…expose…what spirit it is of. Hence …do you keep the Law? If you still remain under the law of sin unto death, you yourself must fulfill ALL of the law of sin unto death. IF Free then why do you put those weaker to you under your subjection as Lords over them? Don’t you know there is One Lord?

A huge revelation for me upon struggling with being the weaker vessel and how much does God hate and despise the weaker vessel …is when i saw (noticed) Paul spoke of being the weaker vessel. A man. A weaker vessel. For God said “My strength is made perfect in weakness”.
 
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Bob Estey

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People can say a lot of “that is what the Bible says”. And it does. I’m not disputing that. The Bible says a lot people use to subject lesser people to those higher. I’m not denying the tough verses. As a homemaker for 35 years doing the role of as the weaker vessel, if God says for women to not speak in Church, then so it is. I can vouch to where that path leads. The fruit of death.

But I don’t think that is what Paul is getting at. Not because I want to fight to speak in a church building, or stand behind the podium to lead a congregation instead of a man. I don’t even go to any church building to have a say for my (as a female) right to speak in the church building.

To me it’s more about the Nature of God, and what is said to be His Nature. Again, I don’t think that is what Paul was getting at, but it’s spoke or written in a way that will reveal the heart of putting those lower in the church under subjection …or it is regarding something no one wants to talk about. I’ve searched even YouTube and there is nothing in regards to “woman”. Only gender stuff about who’s on top. Nothing about the Adulterous Woman and the Free Woman. It’s key I think to this thread (as the law of sin unto death says, or as obedience unto the righteousness of Christ) and Paul’s putting it out there—as Christ often said hard things that revealed(exposed) the mind of the spirit. Let the Lords speak…the women keep silent. Either it is spiritual wickedness in high place that want to have people under them, or it’s the Spirit of no more fear unto bondage being of the Spirit of God. Not as lords over your faith, but as helpers. We are told to test the spirits. I seriously doubt the spirit in which Paul’s “let the women be silent” is widely interpreted is of God. Why? Because it suppresses, tears down, making those weaker in subjection to men. It makes men slobber to be the big head chief. And yes, even women slobbering to be behind the pulpit as the head chief now. Because it’s a high seat to be sought after. I also believe it’s not of God because I’ve had pastors come to our home and speak to my husband about his need for reconciliation to God, but wouldn’t even offer anything to me as if I wasn’t sitting there (invisible, unseen). Yet those same pastors will go to the home of a single woman and try to save her. Like I have to be single to be seen as worthy of hearing the gospel?! It’s all vanity I think. A bunch of puffed up patting on the back swapping. I’ve seen men in the church fight over a single mom with five children of whom gets her to do good acts on. Married men!

God’s Nature is “I will be weak that you be made strong.” As His Son revealed the Spirit of God “He who possessed all things became poor that we be made rich.” <the big elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about. He who possessed all gave it up so you could have. There is a message I think in Paul’s words about “the Woman” which he tells in Romans 7 —ironically it’s spoken to the men “which woman are you of?” How “by the body of Christ you have been made free” being of the Free Woman, and not of the Adulterous Woman. So why then put others of the same body in subjection under you as Lords?

Personally, I think the words “let the women be silent” is testing the spirit to reveal..make manifest…expose…what spirit it is of. Hence …do you keep the Law? If you still remain under the law of sin unto death, you yourself must fulfill ALL of the law of sin unto death. IF Free then why do you put those weaker to you under your subjection as Lords over them? Don’t you know there is One Lord?

A huge revelation for me upon struggling with being the weaker vessel and how much does God hate and despise the weaker vessel …is when i saw (noticed) Paul spoke of being the weaker vessel. A man. A weaker vessel. For God said “My strength is made perfect in weakness”.
It doesn't matter what Paul was getting at, does it? If the Bible is the Word of God, and if the Word of God says women can't speak in a church, then women shouldn't speak in a church, should they?

It is my belief that God did not tell Paul to say that.
 

VictoryinJesus

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It doesn't matter what Paul was getting at, does it?
I think it matters. It matters a lot to me in regards to the adulterous woman who brings forth sin unto death, or of the FreeWoman who brings for fruit unto God. It matters to me going beyond genders of male and female to what most of the Bible is regarding which is freedom to be called no more an adulterous woman, by the body of Christ, set free. Including men and women.
If the Bible is the Word of God, and if the Word of God says women can't speak in a church, then women shouldn't speak in a church, should they?
I personally don’t think a church building is the church, but the people in it. So if two or more men come to speak to my husband about God, I think the same would apply the woman is to be silent. They seem to agree by not acknowledging me as the one who needs to speak anything but keep silent. Same as even here where members of the body gather to lead, teach, guide, reveal, lecture, give insight, speak of God and debate His truths. In all actuality should women be silent in the gathering of men on here to discuss greater truths among themselves? I don’t think you can apply it a building only, but where and any time any men of God gather, should the women keep silent to let the men speak for the greater good of the body of Christ? If you asked men I wonder how many think it should apply here.
It is my belief that God did not tell Paul to say that.
If God did not tell Paul to say that. It sure influences a mindset as being the truth. Although we become the judges of when it applies where and when the body gathers. Why only while in a church building?
 
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Bob Estey

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If God did not tell Paul to say that. It sure influences a mindset as being the truth. Although we become the judges of when it applies where and when the body gathers. Why only while in a church building?
Paul seemed to be of the mindset that men ruled over women. I don't think that's how the Lord sees it.
 

Bob Estey

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I think it matters. It matters a lot to me in regards to the adulterous woman who brings forth sin unto death, or of the FreeWoman who brings for fruit unto God. It matters to me going beyond genders of male and female to what most of the Bible is regarding which is freedom to be called no more an adulterous woman, by the body of Christ, set free. Including men and women.
If the Bible is the Word of God, how was Paul able to mess it up by saying women can't speak in a church, if that wasn't God's will?
 

Bob Estey

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I think it matters. It matters a lot to me in regards to the adulterous woman who brings forth sin unto death, or of the FreeWoman who brings for fruit unto God. It matters to me going beyond genders of male and female to what most of the Bible is regarding which is freedom to be called no more an adulterous woman, by the body of Christ, set free. Including men and women.

I personally don’t think a church building is the church, but the people in it. So if two or more men come to speak to my husband about God, I think the same would apply the woman is to be silent. They seem to agree by not acknowledging me as the one who needs to speak anything but keep silent. Same as even here where members of the body gather to lead, teach, guide, reveal, lecture, give insight, speak of God and debate His truths. In all actuality should women be silent in the gathering of men on here to discuss greater truths among themselves? I don’t think you can apply it a building only, but where and any time any men of God gather, should the women keep silent to let the men speak for the greater good of the body of Christ? If you asked men I wonder how many think it should apply here.

If God did not tell Paul to say that. It sure influences a mindset as being the truth. Although we become the judges of when it applies where and when the body gathers. Why only while in a church building?
A gathering would be a gathering whether it's in a building or elsewhere, wouldn't it?
 

ElieG12

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Paul seemed to be of the mindset that men ruled over women. I don't think that's how the Lord sees it.
It is not Paul whom you are critiquing. All Christians understand that a wife is to be subordinate to her husband as the head of the household, and that a woman should not take on the role of steward within a Christian community.

Discontent with certain biblical teachings is not a recent phenomenon. Those who identify as homosexuals also express disapproval of biblical teachings that relate to their style of life.

It is one matter to refuse to adhere to a biblical teaching... It is an entirely different matter to deem a biblical teaching as incorrect or unfair. We, as humans, are the ones who falter; biblical teachings are rooted in divine authority.
 

Bob Estey

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It is not Paul whom you are critiquing. All Christians understand that a wife is to be subordinate to her husband as the head of the household, and that a woman should not take on the role of steward within a Christian community.

Discontent with certain biblical teachings is not a recent phenomenon. Those who identify as homosexuals also express disapproval of biblical teachings that relate to their style of life.

It is one matter to refuse to adhere to a biblical teaching... It is an entirely different matter to deem a biblical teaching as incorrect or unfair. We, as humans, are the ones who falter; biblical teachings are rooted in divine authority.
There are a lot of women pastors out there, so I guess not all Christians believe Paul.
 

ElieG12

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There are a lot of women pastors out there, so I guess not all Christians believe Paul.
This is no surprise to anyone. There are also churches that call themselves "Christian" that are especially designed for homosexuals; a lot of them in the city where I live.

Matt. 7:21 Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Not any "Christian" church is a church led by Christ.
 
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Triumph1300

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There are a lot of women pastors out there, so I guess not all Christians believe Paul.
Well, that's too bad if they don't believe Paul's writings.
Paul claimed to have received the gospel he preached directly from Jesus.
The apostles and early church all believed Paul and accepted Paul as being consistent with Jesus' teachings.
We should receive Paul and his teachings as well.
 

Bob Estey

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This is no surprise to anyone. There are also churches that call themselves "Christian" that are especially designed for homosexuals; a lot of them in the city where I live.

Matt. 7:21 Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Not any "Christian" church is a church led by Christ.
There's a difference between women pastors and homosexuality.
 

Bob Estey

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Well, that's too bad if they don't believe Paul's writings.
Paul claimed to have received the gospel he preached directly from Jesus.
The apostles and early church all believed Paul and accepted Paul as being consistent with Jesus' teachings.
We should receive Paul and his teachings as well.
Some people don't believe in Paul - they believe in Jesus.
 

Triumph1300

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Some people don't believe in Paul
Thirteen books of the New Testament are by him.

They don't believe 13 new testament books?

These are: Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon.