Exploring Anti-trinitarian Logic

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Grailhunter

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The one single God being threefold in forms, effects, and powers doesn't mean three separate gods.

When the Word was incarnated and became human that was when He was named "Jesus". Prior to that, the Word wasn't human, but rather incorporeal and invisible, which is why you don't read that name in the Old Testament.

If you have one, what is your explanation for why it was necessary that the Christ (Messiah) be the Word (Jn. 1:1), sent by the Father (Jn. 3:17;34;5:30;6:38;7:28-29;8:29;11:42;12:49;17:3;20:21;1 Jn. 4:9), and be begotten by the Holy Spirit and become human (indicating that prior to becoming human the Word preexisted invisibly and incorporeally), and born of the Virgin (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35, Jn. 1:14), rather than be a naturally conceived human by two human parents?

I am taking Yahweh as not a liar and the concept of the Word….the Logos is a 6th century BC Greek concept….and how that relates still has to be around the fact that Yahweh stating that He was the only God in the Old Testament.
 

Magdala

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I am taking Yahweh as not a liar and the concept of the Word….the Logos is a 6th century BC Greek concept….and how that relates still has to be around the fact that Yahweh stating that He was the only God in the Old Testament.

God doesn't lie and we agree that there's only one God. You only presently don't see that the one God is threefold in forms, effects, and powers.
 
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Grailhunter

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God doesn't lie and we agree that there's only one God. You only presently don't see that the one God is threefold in forms, effects, and powers.

Because they do represent what is in the scriptures nor what is represented in the history of Trinity.
The three in one formula did not exist until the 5th century Ecumenical Councils.
 

Magdala

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Because they do represent what is in the scriptures nor what is represented in the history of Trinity.
The three in one formula did not exist until the 5th century Ecumenical Councils.

No, but we should continue our discussion about that in another thread. :]
 
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Magdala

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@Grailhunter, what is your explanation for why it was necessary that the Christ (Messiah) be the Word (Jn. 1:1), sent by the Father (Jn. 3:17;34;5:30;6:38;7:28-29;8:29;11:42;12:49;17:3;20:21;1 Jn. 4:9), and be begotten by the Holy Spirit and become human (indicating that prior to becoming human the Word preexisted invisibly and incorporeally), and born of the Virgin (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35, Jn. 1:14), rather than be a naturally conceived human by two human parents? Or, do you not have one?
 
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Grailhunter

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@Grailhunter, what is your explanation for why it was necessary that the Christ (Messiah) be the Word (Jn. 1:1), sent by the Father (Jn. 3:17;34;5:30;6:38;7:28-29;8:29;11:42;12:49;17:3;20:21;1 Jn. 4:9), and be begotten by the Holy Spirit and become human (indicating that prior to becoming human the Word preexisted invisibly and incorporeally), and born of the Virgin (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35, Jn. 1:14), rather than be a naturally conceived human by two human parents? Or, do you not have one?

LOL
Why would I explain something I do not believe?
Pre-existent Christ? Was it a secret in the Old Testament?
On the other hand God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit relate to time in that they are not only in the present but also to some degree in the past and future….it is how they relate to time.
 

Taken

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LOL
Why would I explain something I do not believe?
Pre-existent Christ? Was it a secret in the Old Testament?

The Word of God;
And
The Spirit of God;
Was introduced at the get go regarding Gods Creation of manKind.

Gen 1:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said,

Gods Word “appeared” many times to men in the OT.
By His “appearance and astounding knowledge” Human men having encounters with Him called Him;
a man, Angel of the LORD, Lord

One human man “Asked Him, His NAME.”
His NAME was not given, Because, His Name was Secret.

Judg 13:
[17] And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Point being…what was already revealed;

Deut 29:
[29] The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Lesson is…God reveals Knowledge Little by Little, bit by bit, according to His Understanding.

People do the Same thing…little by little revealing knowledge to their own children.

Gods Word (who IS God) has come forth out from Gods mouth During and Since His Creation Began.

What God Says to Call His Word, (at ANY Time in History) is Gods Prerogative to announce.

Just as Any Time in “your” lifetime, it is your Prerogative, what, when, why, and by whom you choose to be called.
(On this Forum you chose to be called Grailhunter…yet you have other names, titles, descriptions, others call you, which are secret to the members of this forum.)

4,000 years passed, from the OT to the NT before the secret Name of Gods Word was revealed, and a title, and description.

2,000 years have passed we have a Name, titles, descriptions revealed.

We have Hints, Signs, Prophetic knowledge…
His New Name, New Titles, New Descriptions shall Become Manifested.
Some people (while the specific New Name is still Secret;) Believe and Trust the Prophetic Titles and Descriptions are and more shall be revealed Exclusively Applicable to Lord Jesus Christ.

Isa.9:
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Magdala

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LOL
Why would I explain something I do not believe?
Pre-existent Christ? Was it a secret in the Old Testament?
On the other hand God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit relate to time in that they are not only in the present but also to some degree in the past and future….it is how they relate to time.

So, you don't believe that John was referring to the one begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin, and named "Jesus" (the Son) (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35) when he wrote that the Word became human (indicating that prior to becoming human the Word preexisted invisibly and incorporeally), lived among them, and was testified about by John the Baptist? (Jn. 1:14-15)
 
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Taken

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Good, although I would caution you that having God come down is one thing, and he definitely did, although he came down into and live in his Son. And that does not mean his Son is God either. The Son is the instrument or method by which God communicated with us. And it is the Son a mortal, who died in stead of God. God cannot die...
God “Revealed” His Word, in a body God Prepared.

God “Declared” God in Heaven “would be “ “A” Father to Him….and He (Gods Word on Earth) “would be to God , “A” Son.

There is a difference to what actually “IS” and what God “Declares” He will accept as So being.

A human man CANNOT become Transformed into a new Creature (body) until the Old body Dies…Yet a man “ crucified” with Jesus’ body, IS Accounted A Dead Body, A New Creature…While his Actual old body still lives.

God can not, did not have a baby Offspring.
God is omnipresent, regardless of what He is called, or where He is known to be present.

Heb 1:
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Rom 4:
[17] (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God bless your.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Behold

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God can not, did not have a baby Offspring.

Jesus said that God is His "Father", and God said that Jesus is His "Son".

Now...Something to consider..

God made Adam out of dirt and Eve out of Adam's rib.

Conclusion?

He can certainly make a baby God man, inside a virgin's womb..and in fact, He did.

Not even a problem for the Creator who hung the sun and the stars and keeps the tide along the beach, most of the time.... pending a storm.
 
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Pierac

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[Note: due to character limit, I couldn't quote your post in full.]

The Koine Greek word "σὰρξ" (flesh) doesn't have the definition "become a reality". See below.



Therefore, John wrote that the Word became human, indicating that prior to becoming human, the Word preexisted invisibly and incorporeally. And, was John not referring to the one begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin, and named "Jesus" when he wrote that the Word became human, lived among them, and was testified about by John the Baptist? (Jn. 1:14-15)
Ok little child whom feeds on the milk of Men.... Time for some Meat!

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.

Do we need to do the will of Jesus.... Or the Will of another? ... A will much greater being than Jesus claims to be"?

Joh 14:28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Mat 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.


You beginning to see the reality now?

Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

Joh 5:26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He (GOD) gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

Joh 14:28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Joh 14:31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.

Joh 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,


2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),


Webster
And
AND, conj.
And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.


2Th 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

Col 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him (Jesus),


You have Daddy issues with your Trinity
 
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Grailhunter

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So, you don't believe that John was referring to the one begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin, and named "Jesus" (the Son) (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35) when he wrote that the Word became human (indicating that prior to becoming human the Word preexisted invisibly and incorporeally), lived among them, and was testified about by John the Baptist? (Jn. 1:14-15)

Strange beliefs come from unique scriptures that are not well explained. Like I said all three Gods relate to time differently than we do. The belief of Christ being active in the Old Testament is just not well enough explained for me to buy into it or call Yahweh a liar.

Kind of like you have to hate your mother and father to be a disciple of Christ….I would need an explanation to buy into that. Luke 14:26
 

Magdala

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The belief of Christ being active in the Old Testament is just not well enough explained for me to buy into it or call Yahweh a liar.

The Word is eternal. The arrival of Christ (Messiah) and His Mission was fulfilled in the New Testament through the Incarnation of the Word, meaning the Word became human. Prior to this, the Word preexisted and acted invisibly and incorporeally. Jesus, the Christ (Messiah), is the Word in the flesh.

God is one and trine, which means there is one singular God Who is threefold in forms, effects, and powers. The Thought (the Father), the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, each working differently, and yet not working in contrary fashion, united as one because They are the same Essence: Love, equal in all respects as regards Divinity, Eternity, Immensity, and Omnipotence, but not confused in relation to one another, but, rather, quite distinct, and One is not the Other, and yet there are not three gods, but a single God, Who in and of Himself has given being to the individual Divine Persons in generating the Son and, by that very act, originating the procession of the Holy Spirit.

God had to be the Christ (Messiah), Redeemer, because He is the perfect sacrifice, but He couldn't do it in His invisible and incorporeal form. That's why the Word, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, was sent by the Thought (the Father) to become human to be the Christ (Messiah), the Redeemer, and that was done by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

The Father and the Holy Spirit are invisible and incorporeal, as was the Word until that Person of the Holy Trinity became human: Jesus. Human sight or any other human sense never saw God before He became incarnate and cannot physically see the First and Third Persons (the Father and the Holy Spirit), but sees Them in the works which were or are carried out by Them. [N: 45-50]

Since the earthly creation has instead yielded Adam and Adam's race, Mary witnesses to the merciful superlove of God towards man, for through Mary, Mother of the Redeemer, God has worked the salvation of the human race. Jesus is the Christ because Mary conceived Him and gave Him to the World.

One may say that God could overcome the need to take flesh in a woman's womb. He could do all, it's true. But reflect on the law of order and goodness which lies in His annihilation in mortal clothing.

The sin committed by man had to be expiated by man and not by the nonincarnate divinity. How could the Divinity, incorporeal Spirit, redeem the sins of the flesh with the sacrifice of Itself? It was, then, necessary that God should pay for the sins of flesh and blood with the agony of an innocent Flesh and Blood, born of an innocent woman.

God's mind, God's feeling, and God's spirit would have suffered for our sins in mind, feeling, and spirit. But to be the Redemption of all forms of concupiscence inoculated into Adam and his descendants by the Tempter, the One Immolated for them all had to be endowed with a nature like ours, made worthy of being given as a ransom to God by the Divinity hidden in it, like a gem of infinite supernatural value hidden under common, natural clothing.

God is order, and God does not violate or do violence to order, except in very exceptional cases, judged useful by his Intelligence. Such was
not the case with His Redemption.

God had not only to cancel sin from the moment it occurred until the moment of the sacrifice and annul in those to come the effects of sin by having them be born unaware of evil. No. With a total sacrifice God had to make reparation for Sin and the sins of all mankind give the men already dead absolution of sin, and give those living at that time and in the future the means to be helped to resist evil and to be forgiven for the evil which their weakness would lead them to do.

God's sacrifice thus had to be such as to present all the necessary requisites, and it could be such only in a God
made man: a host worthy of God, a means understood by man. In addition, He was coming to bring the Law.

If His Humanity had not existed, how could we—His poor brothers and sisters, who labor to have faith in Him, who lived for thirty-three years on the earth, a Man among men—have believed? And how could He appear, already an adult, to hostile or ignorant peoples, making them convinced of His nature and His doctrine? He would then have appeared, in the eyes of the world, as a spirit who had taken on a human likeness, but not as a man Who was born and died, shedding real blood through the wounds of a real flesh as proof of being a man—and rose again and ascended to Heaven with His glorified body—as proof of being God returning to His eternal dwelling.

Isn't it sweeter for us to think that He is really our brother, with the destiny of creatures who are born, live, suffer, and die, than to conceive of Him as a Spirit superior to the exigencies of humanity?

It was necessary, then, for a woman to give birth to Him according to the flesh, after having conceived Him above the flesh, for from no marriage of creatures, no matter how holy they were, could the God-Man be conceived, but only from a wedding of Purity and Love, the Spirit and the Virgin, created without stain so as to be the matrix for the flesh of a God, the Virgin the thought of Whom was God's joy, since before time existed, the Virgin in Whom there is a compendium of the Father's creative perfection, the joy of Heaven, the salvation of the Earth, the most beautiful flower of Creation of all the flowers of the Universe, a living star before whom all the suns created by the Father seem dull. [N: 43]

Here are some yes–no questions:

John said, "the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (1:14). Is John saying that the Word became flesh, and indicating that prior to becoming human, the Word preexisted as not a human?

John said, "The Word became flesh, and lived among us. [...] John testified about him." (Jn. 1:14-15). Is John referring to the one begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin, and named "Jesus" (the Son) (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35)?

Kind of like you have to hate your mother and father to be a disciple of Christ….I would need an explanation to buy into that. Luke 14:26

“If anyone comes to me, and doesn’t disregard his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he can’t be my disciple." (Lk. 14:26)

Jesus means "hate in a holy manner." If within your heart you are saying: "Hatred, as He taught us, is never holy. So He is contradicting Himself." No. He's not contradicting Himself. He's saying that we must hate the heaviness of love, the sensual passionateness of love for your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and for your very life, on the contrary He orders us to love relatives and life with the light freedom of spirits. Love them in God and for God, never postponing God to them, endeavouring and taking care to lead them where the disciple has already arrived, that is to God, the Truth. We will thus love God and relatives in a holy manner, safeguarding each love, so that family ties will not be a burden but wings, not a fault, but justice. We must be prepared to hate even our lives in order to follow Him. He hates his life who without fear of losing it or making it sad from a human point of view, uses it to serve Him. But it is only an appearance of hatred. A feeling erroneously called "hatred" by man who cannot elevate himself, as he is entirely earthly, by little superior to brutes.

In actual fact such apparent hatred, which consists in denying sensual satisfaction to one's life in order to give a more and more intense life to the spirit, is love. It is love, of the highest degree and the most blessed. To deny oneself base satisfactions, to reject sensual affections, to risk unfair reproaches, criticism and punishment, being rejected, cursed and perhaps persecuted, all that is a sequence of grief. But it is necessary to embrace such grief and take it upon ourselves, like a cross, a scaffold on which all past faults are expiated to be justified by God, from Whom we can obtain every true, mighty, holy grace for those whom we love. He who does not carry his cross and does not follow Him, he who cannot do that cannot be His disciple. (PV3)
 
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Magdala

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Ok little child whom feeds on the milk of Men.... Time for some Meat!

[Note: due to character limit, I couldn't quote your post in full.]

In your reply, you didn't do what you were supposed to which was address an error you made and answer my question. So, again, in J. 1:14, John said, "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us". You said that the Koine Green word "σὰρξ" (flesh) in that verse means "became a reality", but it doesn't have that definition. See its actual definitions below.

"Forms of the word
Dictionary:
σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ
Greek transliteration: sarx
Simplified transliteration: sarx

Numbers
Strong's number:
4561
GK Number: 4922

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament:
147
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-3b(1)

Gloss: flesh, body

Definition:
flesh, body, the soft tissue of a creature, often in contrast to bone, ligament, or sinew; by extension human, humankind, with a focus on the fallen human nature, which is frail and corrupt in contrast to immaterial (spiritual) things, thus the NIV (1984) translation sinful nature.

flesh, Lk. 24:39; Jn. 3:6; the human body, 2 Cor. 7:5; flesh, human nature, human frame, Jn. 1:13, 14; 1 Pet. 4:1; 1 Jn. 4:2; kindred, Rom. 11:14; lineage, Rom. 1:3; 9:3; flesh, humanity, human beings, Mt. 24:22; Lk. 3:6; Jn. 17:2; the circumstances of the body, material condition, 1 Cor. 5:5; 7:28; Phlm. 16; flesh, mere humanity, human fashion, 1 Cor. 1:26; 2 Cor. 1:17; flesh as the seat of passion and frailty, Rom. 8:1, 3, 5; carnality, Gal. 5:24; materiality, material circumstance, as opposed to the spiritual, Phil. 3:3, 4; Col. 2:18; a material system or mode, Gal. 3:3; Heb. 9:10"

Therefore, according to its actual definition, John wrote that the Word became human, also indicating that prior to becoming human, the Word preexisted as not a human. And, was John not referring to the one begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin, and named "Jesus" when he wrote that the Word became human, lived among them, and was testified about by John the Baptist? (Jn. 1:14-15)
 
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Aunty Jane

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Here are some yes–no questions:

John said, "the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (1:14). Is John saying that the Word became flesh, and indicating that prior to becoming human, the Word preexisted as not a human?
There is no doubt that the pre-human Jesus existed before all creation as Paul stated in Col 1:15-17…..

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” (NASB)

Also John 1:2-3….”He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” (NASB)

The real question is…who was he “with”….himself? And what “beginning” is this, since an eternal being has no beginning?
If he is “the firstborn of all creation”, then he is the start of that creation. This is what makes him “only begotten”…..the unique firstborn son who was used in the creation of all things. “The beginning of God’s creation” (Rev 3:14)

But why was he called “The Word” (ho logos)? What does that title mean?


Is John referring to the one begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin, and named "Jesus" (the Son) (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35) when he wrote that the Word became human, lived among them, and was testified about by John the Baptist? (Jn. 1:14-15)
Yes…the one who said he had ‘come down from heaven to do, not his own will, but the will of him who sent him’….the one who said “the Father is greater than I am”….. and who said he had come to teach others what his Father had taught him.

The Word was not ‘God incarnate’ because an immortal God cannot die….Jesus had to die the same death as Adam, to pay the price of redemption…….and the word “theos” (god) in Greek does not only mean God with a capital “G”…..it means any god or goddess, deity or divine personage.

Read John 10:31-36 and see that Yahweh himself called human judges in Israel “gods” because they represented him. Jesus came as his Father’s representative….he taught only what his Father taught him. (John 5:30; John 8:28)
 
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Magdala

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According to Strongs Concordance the primary definition of “theos” used in John 1:1 is….
  1. “a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities.”
It can also mean….
  1. “spoken of the only and true God
    1. refers to the things of God
    2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
  2. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    1. God's representative or viceregent
      1. of magistrates and judges”

I didn't refer to the Koine Greek word "theos", but rather "theios". So, considering the following definitions of the Koine Greek word "theios" (divine), what do you mean when you say that Jesus was divine?

Forms of the word
Dictionary:
θεῖος, α, ον
Greek transliteration: theios
Simplified transliteration: theios

Numbers
Strong's number:
2304
GK Number: 2521

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament:
3
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: a-1a(1)
Gloss: divine

Definition: divine, pertaining to God
, 2 Pet. 1:3, 4; τὸ θειον, the divine nature, divinity, Acts 17:29*

Yes [...]

I agree that the Word became a human and was named "Jesus", and that prior to becoming human, the Word preexisted invisibly and incorporeally. So, if you have one, what is your explanation for why it was necessary that the Christ (Messiah) be the Word, and be begotten by the Holy Spirit and become human, and be born of the Virgin, rather than be a naturally conceived human by two human parents?
 

Grailhunter

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The arrival of Christ (Messiah) and His Mission was fulfilled in the New Testament through the Incarnation of the Word. Prior to the Word becoming human, the Word preexisted and acted invisibly and incorporeally. Jesus is the Word in the flesh.

God is one and trine, which means there is one singular God Who is threefold in forms, effects, and powers. The Thought (the Father), the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, each working differently, and yet not working in contrary fashion, united as one because They are the same Essence: Love, equal in all respects as regards Divinity, Eternity, Immensity, and Omnipotence, but not confused in relation to one another, but, rather, quite distinct, and One is not the Other, and yet there are not three gods, but a single God, Who in and of Himself has given being to the individual Divine Persons in generating the Son and, by that very act, originating the procession of the Holy Spirit.

God had to be the Christ (Messiah), Redeemer, because He is the perfect sacrifice, but He couldn't do it in His invisible and incorporeal form. That's why the Word, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, was sent by the Thought (the Father) to become human to be the Christ (Messiah), the Redeemer, and that was done by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

The Father and the Holy Spirit are invisible and incorporeal, as was the Word until that Person of the Holy Trinity became human: Jesus. Human sight or any other human sense never saw God before He became incarnate and cannot physically see the First and Third Persons (the Father and the Holy Spirit), but sees Them in the works which were or are carried out by Them. [N: 45-50]

Since the earthly creation has instead yielded Adam and Adam's race, Mary witnesses to the merciful superlove of God towards man, for through Mary, Mother of the Redeemer, God has worked the salvation of the human race. Jesus is the Christ because Mary conceived Him and gave Him to the World.

One may say that God could overcome the need to take flesh in a woman's womb. He could do all, it's true. But reflect on the law of order and goodness which lies in His annihilation in mortal clothing.

The sin committed by man had to be expiated by man and not by the nonincarnate divinity. How could the Divinity, incorporeal Spirit, redeem the sins of the flesh with the sacrifice of Itself? It was, then, necessary that God should pay for the sins of flesh and blood with the agony of an innocent Flesh and Blood, born of an innocent woman.

God's mind, God's feeling, and God's spirit would have suffered for our sins in mind, feeling, and spirit. But to be the Redemption of all forms of concupiscence inoculated into Adam and his descendants by the Tempter, the One Immolated for them all had to be endowed with a nature like ours, made worthy of being given as a ransom to God by the Divinity hidden in it, like a gem of infinite supernatural value hidden under common, natural clothing.

God is order, and God does not violate or do violence to order, except in very exceptional cases, judged useful by his Intelligence. Such was
not the case with His Redemption.

God had not only to cancel sin from the moment it occurred until the moment of the sacrifice and annul in those to come the effects of sin by having them be born unaware of evil. No. With a total sacrifice God had to make reparation for Sin and the sins of all mankind give the men already dead absolution of sin, and give those living at that time and in the future the means to be helped to resist evil and to be forgiven for the evil which their weakness would lead them to do.

God's sacrifice thus had to be such as to present all the necessary requisites, and it could be such only in a God
made man: a host worthy of God, a means understood by man. In addition, He was coming to bring the Law.

If His Humanity had not existed, how could we—His poor brothers and sisters, who labor to have faith in Him, who lived for thirty-three years on the earth, a Man among men—have believed? And how could He appear, already an adult, to hostile or ignorant peoples, making them convinced of His nature and His doctrine? He would then have appeared, in the eyes of the world, as a spirit who had taken on a human likeness, but not as a man Who was born and died, shedding real blood through the wounds of a real flesh as proof of being a man—and rose again and ascended to Heaven with His glorified body—as proof of being God returning to His eternal dwelling.

Isn't it sweeter for us to think that He is really our brother, with the destiny of creatures who are born, live, suffer, and die, than to conceive of Him as a Spirit superior to the exigencies of humanity?

It was necessary, then, for a woman to give birth to Him according to the flesh, after having conceived Him above the flesh, for from no marriage of creatures, no matter how holy they were, could the God-Man be conceived, but only from a wedding of Purity and Love, the Spirit and the Virgin, created without stain so as to be the matrix for the flesh of a God, the Virgin the thought of Whom was God's joy, since before time existed, the Virgin in Whom there is a compendium of the Father's creative perfection, the joy of Heaven, the salvation of the Earth, the most beautiful flower of Creation of all the flowers of the Universe, a living star before whom all the suns created by the Father seem dull. [N: 43]

Here are some yes–no questions:

John said, "the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (1:14). Is John saying that the Word became flesh, and indicating that prior to becoming human, the Word preexisted as not a human?

John said, "The Word became flesh, and lived among us. [...] John testified about him." (Jn. 1:14-15). Is John referring to the one begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin, and named "Jesus" (the Son) (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35)?



“If anyone comes to me, and doesn’t disregard his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he can’t be my disciple." (Lk. 14:26)

Jesus means "hate in a holy manner." If within your heart you are saying: "Hatred, as He taught us, is never holy. So He is contradicting Himself." No. He's not contradicting Himself. He's saying that we must hate the heaviness of love, the sensual passionateness of love for your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and for your very life, on the contrary He orders us to love relatives and life with the light freedom of spirits. Love them in God and for God, never postponing God to them, endeavouring and taking care to lead them where the disciple has already arrived, that is to God, the Truth. We will thus love God and relatives in a holy manner, safeguarding each love, so that family ties will not be a burden but wings, not a fault, but justice. We must be prepared to hate even our lives in order to follow Him. He hates his life who without fear of losing it or making it sad from a human point of view, uses it to serve Him. But it is only an appearance of hatred. A feeling erroneously called "hatred" by man who cannot elevate himself, as he is entirely earthly, by little superior to brutes.

In actual fact such apparent hatred, which consists in denying sensual satisfaction to one's life in order to give a more and more intense life to the spirit, is love. It is love, of the highest degree and the most blessed. To deny oneself base satisfactions, to reject sensual affections, to risk unfair reproaches, criticism and punishment, being rejected, cursed and perhaps persecuted, all that is a sequence of grief. But it is necessary to embrace such grief and take it upon ourselves, like a cross, a scaffold on which all past faults are expiated to be justified by God, from Whom we can obtain every true, mighty, holy grace for those whom we love. He who does not carry his cross and does not follow Him, he who cannot do that cannot be His disciple. (PV3)

Ya a lot of what you said I do not believe in.
We did not nail Yahweh to the cross.
I believe in…
God the Father…Yahweh…God Almighty…Creator of Heaven and Earth and Adam and Eve…..
God the Son…Yeshua…the Son of God…Messiah…Savior…Redeemer.
The Holy Spirit…the unnamed God…helper…guide…teacher…strengthener….nurturer…..

I believe the word Trinity expresses three Gods in unity….Tri-unity. Triune would be three in one.
The three in one God formula does not show up in the scriptures or Christian history until the 4th century during the Roman Ecumenical Councils.
 

Magdala

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Ya a lot of what you said I do not believe in.

At this time you don't, but that could change. And, you didn't answer the following yes–no questions:

John said, "the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (1:14). Is John saying that the Word became human, and indicating that prior to becoming human, the Word preexisted as not a human? Yes or no?

John said that the Word "became flesh and dwelt among us" and was "testified about" by John the Baptist (Jn. 1:14-15). In those verses, is John referring to the one begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin, and named "Jesus" (the Son) (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35)? Yes or no?

I believe the word Trinity expresses three Gods in unity….Tri-unity. Triune would be three in one. The three in one God formula does not show up in the scriptures or Christian history until the 4th century during the Roman Ecumenical Councils.

Firstly, the Trinity is not considered "three gods" in Christian belief, but rather one God existing in three distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each working differently, and yet not working in contrary fashion, united as one because They are the same Essence: Love, equal in all respects as regards Divinity, Eternity, Immensity, and Omnipotence, but not confused in relation to one another, but, rather, quite distinct, and One is not the Other, and yet there are not three gods, but a single God, Who in and of Himself has given being to the individual Divine Persons in generating the Son and, by that very act, originating the procession of the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, the words "Triune" and "Trinity" both share the definitions "three in one" and "the Trinity" (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit):

Triune 1 of 2 noun

often capitalized
:
trinity sense 1

Triune 2 of 2 adjective

: three in one:
a : of or relating to the Trinity
the triune God

Trinity noun

1 : the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma

Thirdly, since you said that you believe in three gods, which means three separate gods (whether you realize that or not), that definitely doesn't show up in Scripture, nor Christian history.
 
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Aunty Jane

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I didn't refer to the Koine Greek word "theos", but rather "theios". So, considering the following definitions of the Koine Greek word "theios" (divine), what do you mean when you say that Jesus was divine?
In John 1:1…a key scripture used in proving the trinity, the word used is “theos”….I already addressed
”theios”….it is a very similar word...”divine, pertaining to God”.…thus Jesus is of divine origin, making him divine but not deity. Calling Jesus divine never made him God’s equal. He is a “servant” of his superior Father, (Acts 4:27) “sent“ by him to save humanity from sin and death. (John 17:3)

The pre-human Jesus was God’s first creation (Rev 3:14) and as a human he was also a direct creation of God, his life force transferred from heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin so that he could become the “second Adam”, and redeem the human race……he had to be human to pay back what Adam took away from his children. He did so out of love. (Prov 8:30-31)
I agree that the Word became a human and was named "Jesus", and that prior to becoming human, the Word preexisted invisibly and incorporeally. So, if you have one, what is your explanation for why it was necessary that the Christ (Messiah) be the Word, and be begotten by the Holy Spirit and become human, and be born of the Virgin, rather than be a naturally conceived human by two human parents?
If you know God’s law, then you will understand that it stated….”an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life”…..in order to pay back the perfect sinless life that Adam lost for all his future offspring, Jesus had to die as Adam’s equivalent.…. a sinless life for a sinless life.…balancing the scales of God’s perfect justice. No other human on earth was sinless, so God himself provided the redeemer…..at great cost to himself.

Why was Jesus called ”the Word” (ho logos)? (one of his many titles) because he was the one who spoke for God….a spokesman.

There was one in the OT who always spoke for Yahweh, such as the angel who spoke for God to Abraham when three angels came to announce the birth of Isaac. Two of them went on to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, rescuing Lot and his family. (Gen 18) The one who spoke for Yahweh, went back to where he came from. Spirit beings can materialize at will to convey God’s messages to his human servants.
Gabriel appeared to Mary to announce her coming pregnancy. He had appeared to Daniel some 500 years earlier.

In 1 Tim 2:5-6 it says…
”For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.”
We sinful humans are separated from God except through Jesus Christ…..If we need a “mediator” between us and God, then Jesus cannot be God…..otherwise we would need a mediator between us and him too.
 
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Magdala

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In John 1:1…a key scripture used in proving the trinity, the word used is “theos”….I already addressed

And, I've responded.

”theios”….it is a very similar word...”divine, pertaining to God”.…thus Jesus is of divine origin, making him divine but not deity.

I know that that's a definition of the Koine Greek word "theios" (divine) because I'm the one who presented it to you. Here are its definitions again:

"Forms of the word
Dictionary:
θεῖος, α, ον
Greek transliteration: theios
Simplified transliteration: theios

Numbers
Strong's number:
2304
GK Number: 2521

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament:
3
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: a-1a(1)
Gloss: divine

Definition: divine, pertaining to God
, 2 Pet. 1:3, 4; τὸ θειον, the divine nature, divinity, Acts 17:29*"

The word "theios" (divine) is used only three times in the New Testament (Act. 17:19, 2 Pet. 1:3, 2 Pet. 1:4), and in each of those times it's used to refer to God.

The pre-human Jesus was God’s first creation (Rev 3:14) and as a human he was also a direct creation of God, his life force transferred from heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin so that he could become the “second Adam”, and redeem the human race……he had to be human to pay back what Adam took away from his children. He did so out of love. (Prov 8:30-31)
If you know God’s law, then you will understand that it stated….”an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life”…..in order to pay back the perfect sinless life that Adam lost for all his future offspring, Jesus had to die as Adam’s equivalent.…. a sinless life for a sinless life.…balancing the scales of God’s perfect justice. No other human on earth was sinless, so God himself provided the redeemer…..at great cost to himself.

The mission of the Redeemer was not only to cancel sin from the moment it occurred until the moment of the sacrifice and annul in those to come the effects of sin by having them be born unaware of evil. No. With a total sacrifice He had to make reparation for Sin and the sins of all mankind, give the men already dead absolution of sin, and give those living at that time and in the future the means to be helped to resist evil and to be forgiven for the evil which their weakness would lead them to do.

Their sacrifice thus had to be such as to present all the necessary requisites, and it could be such only in a God
made man: a host worthy of God, a means understood by man. In addition, He was coming to bring the Law.

Who else could do that but God?

Why was Jesus called ”the Word” (ho logos)?

Jesus is called the Word because He is the Word as a human, for John said that the Word "became flesh and lived among us" (Jn. 1:14), and was "testified about" by John the Baptist. (Jn. 1:15)
 
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