Gog and Magog and The Flaming Fire

[TribulationSigns]

The answer is not mine for me to have

Again, you do not have the answer. Not a single verse to support your position anyway.

, but rather to share for understanding, to all who ARE born again of the Holy Spirit. John 3:3-8.

I am born again Christians and was given power with the Holy Spirit to preach. Wait a minute, I am part of Two Witnesses. It is you who have misunderstood who the Two Witnesses are. They are not John and Jesus and you STILL can't explain their ministry according to Revelation 11 anyway!

 

[Earburner]

All it says is he returns without bearing the sins he already bore. it does not say he will never bear any other sins. Note he appeared without any sin which means he left heaven with none of those previous sins. There is nothing surprising there.

The problem with the understanding for most Christians is, they won't/can't accept the fact that it is God the Father that closes "the door" of His period of Grace through faith in Jesus, who is Himself "THE DOOR".
John 10
[7] Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Mat. 25
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Rev. 3
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Earburner]

Again, you do not have the answer. Not a single verse to support your position anyway.



I am born again Christians and was given power with the Holy Spirit to preach. Wait a minute, I am part of Two Witnesses. It is you who have misunderstood who the Two Witnesses are. They are not John and Jesus and you STILL can't explain their ministry according to Revelation 11 anyway!

Were you physically born from your mother, having the "golden oil", aka God's Holy Spirit already (anointed) at birth??
Nope!!
Neither has anyone else for all time, except for John the Baptist and Jesus, who were a joint ministry for 3.5 years (6 months for John, and then 3 years for Jesus) directly sent by the LORD, aka God the Father.
Zech 4:11-14
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD [God the Father] of the whole earth.

Sorry! The Two Witnesses stand for the LORD God Himself. Even "Jehovah Witnesses" can't do that, because they as with all others who are "born AGAIN", are only "ambassadors for Christ". 2 Cor. 5:20.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Were you physically born from your mother, having the "golden oil", aka God's Holy Spirit already (anointed) at birth??
Nope!!

Golden oil is the Holy Spirit, yes!

You receive the Holy Spirit when you are born again. Not when you were born with the flesh.

Neither has anyone else for all time, except for John the Baptist and Jesus, who were a joint ministry for 3.5 years (6 months for John, and then 3 years for Jesus) directly sent by the LORD, aka God the Father.
Zech 4:11-14
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD [God the Father] of the whole earth.

Read the whole context carefully:

Zec 4:1-14
(1) And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
(2) And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
(3) And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
(4) So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
(5) Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
(6) Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
(7) Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
(8) Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
(9) The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
(10) For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
(11) Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
(12) And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
(13) And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
(14) Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

And compare this with Revelation 11.

Rev 11:3-4
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 1:20
(20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The candlesticks represent the Churches! Therefore, the Lampstands and olive trees stand before God, not by their own power or by their own might, but by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. This again illustrates what we've been seeing of the two Witnesses. It is not by any power we have inherently, but because of the power of the Holy Spirit of God given us that we witness or have the testimony of Christ. Not by our own oil, but by the pure oil of the Olive tree. Not by our own light, but by the light of the candle. The two olive trees symbolize the anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth (Zechariah 4:14), not by their own power, but by power of God. This symbolizes the Church, anointed by the Spirit of God. Just as we read that the two Witnesses of Revelation also stand by the Lord of the earth:

Zec 4:14
(14) Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The same thing Revelation Chapter Eleven says of the two candlestick/olive trees there. They stand before the God of the earth. They are the anointed ones, meaning they are those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit, by being in Christ. The oil for the light is not theirs, it is that given them. Speaking of God's Saints:

1Jn 2:27
(27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So we have seen from God's Word that the Witnesses represent the Church, the Candlesticks represent the Church, and the Olive Tree represents the Church! Not two individuals. PERIOD! The number two signifies TRUTH in Scripture. They are made witnesses for the TRUTH just as Christ sent seventy, two by two! And that they are the anointed ones who stand before the God of the earth for they receive the Holy Spirit that was given them for testimony! All roads are leading to the same inescapable conclusion. This imagery represents the Church! Not two individuals that you people can try to think of because you are wrong when you have suggested that the two witnesses are only John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. Not at all! All Christians are witnesses of God and received power with the Holy Spirit from God so they can preach the gospel for the whole New Testament period as long as they are building the church. Not two individuals within your flawed first-century theory!

Sorry! The Two Witnesses stand for the LORD God Himself.

Of course, we Christians, stand for the Lord God Himself since they represent His Kingdom.

Even "Jehovah Witnesses" can't do that, because they as with all others who are "born AGAIN", are only "ambassadors for Christ". 2 Cor. 5:20.

LOL!!!! One can't be an ambassador for God's kingdom WITHOUT being born again first with the Holy Spirit! Geez.

 

[ewq1938]

The problem with the understanding for most Christians is, they won't/can't accept the fact that it is God the Father that closes "the door" of His period of Grace through faith in Jesus, who is Himself "THE DOOR".
John 10
[7] Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Mat. 25
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Rev. 3
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

LOL, those passages don't go well together. Since the 5 foolish virgins heard his voice I guess you think these passages teach they can open the door?

 

[Earburner]

LOL, those passages don't go well together. Since the 5 foolish virgins heard his voice I guess you think these passages teach they can open the door?

You have that form of thought from the mind of your "natural man", of which can only percieve the book of Revelation chronologically.
In other words, your understanding is not through the mind of Christ.
In Rev. 3:20-22, Jesus is making His appeal to all people then, as well as into the future, who have not the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 8:4-9.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Earburner]

In the following 3 Parts, this is my biblical and spiritual position about the Two Witnesses:

PART #1 of 3:
John and Jesus were a joint ministry.
Elizabeth and Mary knew each other before their children were born.

Elisabeth and John the baptist:
John 1
[12] And when Zacharias saw him [the angel], he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
[13] But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
[14] And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
[15] For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
[16] And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
[17] And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Mary and Jesus:
[34] Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
[36] And, behold, thy COUSIN Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
[37] For with God nothing shall be impossible.
[38] And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
[39] And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
[40] And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
[41] And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
[42] And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
[43] And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
[44] For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy [Mary's] salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my [Elisabeth's] womb for joy.

If that isn't being "anointed" before and at birth, with the symbolic "oil" of the Holy Spirit of God (Zech. 4), then all of Christianity has gone blind to the truth.
Zech. 4
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes EMPTY the golden OIL out of themselves? [Oil is symbolic of God's Holy Spirit].
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.

 

[Earburner]

PART #2 of 3:
Most Christians are assuming that the two witnesses haven't come yet, or they have falsely built the case that the 2Ws are the "church", because by their mind of thinking, all the literal words of Rev. have not been fulfilled yet. Therefore, by our human perspective of time, many falsely perceive chronologically, that the two witnesses MUST appear just before Jesus returns in Glory.
However, the problem is God has not put a time limit on His Age of Grace, and only God the Father knows precisely, of when to send Jesus to return and redeem His people. The other issue at hand is, the "church" is not qualified by time to fulfill the 1260 literal days, as prophesied.

From what I do know and understand, Jesus has not returned in flaming fire yet, but He did appear as one of the "two witnesses", and indeed it was before "that great and dreadful Day".

As for my understanding about the other witness, being John the Baptist, he fulfilled Malachi 4:5-6, as shown in Luke 1:16-17.
Malachi 4
[5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers [the act of restoration], lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Luke 1
(The holy angel of the Lord said to Zacharias):
[16] And many of the children of Israel shall he turn [cause repentance, to restore] to the Lord their God.
[17] And he shall go before him in the spirit and power [authority] of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord [God], [who was in the mortal flesh of Jesus].

Please notice that the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6 was NOT fulfilled verbatim** in Luke 1:16-17.
Is most all of Christianity calling the angel a liar?
Think it through WITH the mind of Christ, and not by the mind of your "natural man", or by the religious persuasion of "church-ianity".

**Note: the same holds true for the book of Revelation.

 

[Earburner]

PART #3 of 3:
Let me interject here for a moment, with a biblical and Godly point, that shall enhance your understanding.
James 5[17] Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months [3.5 years].

Such a length of time as that, is equivalent to 1260 days, and/or 42 months, aka 3.5 years.
If I recall correctly, only two people, in a joint ministry, of God's "anointing", was allotted an identical time period to accomplish the work assigned through them. One lost his head over it, and the other's Father did "gather two sticks" for Himself and his Son's fate [the cross]. 1 Kings 17:12.

After the completion of those two events, of 6 months and 3 years (1260 days), it surely did "rain" again, in fact now equally and everywhere on all the earth, it has "poured out upon" the earth mightily. Not with literal rain, but rather with the "rain" of God's Holy Spirit, on the Day of Pentecost, and is still on going.

 

[Douggg]

From what I understand, Jesus has not returned in flaming fire yet, but He did appear as one of the "two witnesses", and indeed it was before "that great and dreadful Day".

The two witnesses of Revelation 11, testify and prophesy for 1260 days of the forthcoming 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

The 1260 days are the first half of the 7 years, and corresponds to the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6. The two witnesses will be killed at the end of the 1260 days. And after their deaths, for 3 1/2 days the world makes merry and exchanges gifts.

Then the world sees the two witnesses come back to life and called up to heaven, the world hearing the great voice that calls them up, disappearing in a cloud.

None of those things have happened yet.

 

[Earburner]

The two witnesses of Revelation 11, testify and prophesy for 1260 days of the forthcoming 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

The 1260 days are the first half of the 7 years, and corresponds to the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6. The two witnesses will be killed at the end of the 1260 days. And after their deaths, for 3 1/2 days the world makes merry and exchanges gifts.

Then the world sees the two witnesses come back to life and called up to heaven, the world hearing the great voice that calls them up, disappearing in a cloud.

None of those things have happened yet.

Your conclusion is according to Premil thinking.

But, did you know that the current situation of global gift giving, is called "Christmas", and is an acceptable interpretation to Amil. thinking?

In Rev. 11:10, let's look at a few views of how someone can rejoice over another's torment.
1. A person can rejoice over another's torment in their short comings and failure.
2. A person can rejoice over another's torment in their loss of a valuable victory.
3. A person can rejoice over another's torment in repentance towards God, to having faith in Christ.

Death is not eternal torment. It is simply a complete and final end of conscious existence for all eternity, aka "as having never lived". Through the cessation of breathing oxygenated air, the life of the body dies. However, Jesus says: "Whosoever believeth in me, shall NEVER die, believest thou this?"

Jesus' torment was to be and remain sinless, and have to bear the sin of the world, so that by His sacrificial death, we can have Eternal Life as "the GIFT of Salvation, through faith in Him.

Because Jesus loves us so much, He understood what His Sacrifice would gain for us, Himself, including God the Father.
He made the decision to go to the Cross and die for us all, and yes,...even for God the Father's sake, who is HOLY.

Is the calling of God for us to repent towards Him, through Jesus, a torment?
In many ways it is. While alive, It is a torment of mind for one to know and to be continually reminded that one must make a decision to come to Him, and confess their sinfulness, for the forgiveness of sins, or to neglect the call altogether in stubborness, and then die in their sins.
In many ways, sin is enjoyable to our flesh, and it can be a comfortable way of living life, in doing as one pleases.

In Mat. 8:29 the fallen angels were fully aware of their condemned condition,
knowing that they had nothing to do with Jesus, and therefore, having no hope of salvation at all, they perceived that His presence on earth was only to torment and disrupt them in the evil way of their going.

Is that not the same situation of a wilful sinner, being presented with the death and resurrection of Jesus, but has no interest whatsoever in hearing about His sacrifice for their eternal salvation?
Of course it is! Wallowing in sin has it's pleasures. All of such have no desire to repent from their sins and turn towards God. But, to hear that they should, is torment to them.

That torment of mind, ignoring OUR repentance towards God (metanoeo), can prevail in the length of one's life as the TORMENT of GUILT, until we do repent towards God, and then believe in Jesus, for the forgiveness of sins.
In that moment of our turning, and Him receiving us, that is when WE DO THEN REJOICE.
Unfortunately, there are many that never do turn to God in repentance, even on their death bed. All of such do die in their sins. Having ONLY their own mortal natural life, and not the Eternal Spirit of Christ, they will have perished on the very day of their death, being eternally lost.

However, for those who do repent towards God through faith in Jesus, they know that they have been forgiven, and as a result they do rejoice over their decision in answering God's call, through the testimony of the "two witnesses". 1 John 5:11-13. All torment and fear of death is removed!!

When a person seriously believes the call of John the Baptist to repent TOWARDS God, and then "runs to" the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins to be forgiven, there is mental torment, because it requires a change of mind to repent and refrain from walking in one's sinful ways, and begin walking with God, apart from their sinful ways and their sinful acquaintances also. That can be, and most often is a tormentuous process.

Though our days of sincere repentance can be torment of mind, once our decision is recognized of by God, of havinh faith in Christ, He freely grants to us the Gift of His Eternal Life, whereby we freely receive it with rejoicing over the sacrificial works that were faithfully "finished" for us by John the Baptist and Jesus our Savior, aka the Two Witnesses.

And so today....many still do "make merry and send gifts one to another"....on Christmas!

 

[ewq1938]

You have that form of thought from the mind of your "natural man"

No, that's you.

, of which can only percieve the book of Revelation chronologically.

Rev is chronological in some places and not in others. Nearly everyone knows that so this is a strawman fallacy you are employing.

In other words, your understanding is not through the mind of Christ.

You are actually speaking of yourself.

In Rev. 3:20-22, Jesus is making His appeal to all people then, as well as into the future, who have not the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 8:4-9.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Many people whom this applies to will quote these scriptures to others.

 

[Earburner]

No, that's you.

Wrong!
My following posts are my "steelman"  truth, as opposed to your accusation that I have presented a "strawman" fallacy.

Straw-manning and steel-manning

When debating with someone, there are two distinct approaches you can take, straw-man or steel-man.

sentientsteve.medium.com

Rev is chronological in some places and not in others. Nearly everyone knows that so this is a strawman fallacy you are employing.

What I am meaning is many Christians read Revelation, taking it literally and fail at understanding the spiritual symbolism/signification of the words, not knowing that they are interpreting it by their human mind only, and not by the mind of Christ.

Such is the case with those who are TAUGHT by denominational Bible Colleges and/Seminaries, aka church-ianity.
Evidently they did not heed Paul's spiritual advice:
1 Cor. 2
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but [that] which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 John 2
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man TEACH you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

You are actually speaking of yourself.

Wrong!

Many people whom this applies to will quote these scriptures to others.

Wrong!
All of 1 Cor. Ch. 2 explains the situation for every professing Christian, as to whether they are walking by faith in "the mind of Christ, "the New man", or they are walking by faith in the mind of their "natural man", "the man of sin".
1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the [anointing] power of God [the Holy Spirit].

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

First off, your approach is not respectful towards a view that opposes your own. Therefore you should learn of how God's thinking is far beyond our thinking, as that of how a dog is to us. Isa. 55:8-9.

I have no respect for any beliefs that someone has all to themselves. God doesn't reveal truth to just one person.

Is not God building and making of you and I to be each the members of His New continuing city of Jerusalm, aka "the body of Christ"?
Heb. 11
[8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
[9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
[10] For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Aren't you and I New creatures, made out of the elements of earth, as earthen vessels?
Vessels? For what?? To contain the Holy Spirit of God within us.
What is the land of promise that you and I hope to inherit?
Ans. Our glorified bodies, containing the Spirit of God Himself.

And what about where we will dwell in our glorified bodies? Scripture says that one we inherit the new heavens and new earth there will then be no more death, sorrow, crying or pain (Rev 21:4). That hasn't happened yet.

The other point is: for the past 2000+/- years, Christendom has pounded it into the heads of believers that this earth is worthy of being saved along with ourselves, as if we should need/require another planet earth.

So then, I ask you: if we are going to inherit Immortality, in the likeness to that of Jesus, how then for the past 2000 years is it that Jesus Himself has not needed or required another planet earth for His own dwelling??
Maybe because the Godhead has always and ONLY wanted to dwell within us, His creation. We ourselves are their dwelling place.

Where do you think we will dwell for eternity?

Do you not know that Jesus, who is forever part God and part man, has the eternal ability to appear being both Physical and/or Spirit at will?

How would any Christian not know this, knowing that Jesus appeared out of nowhere to His disciples in a locked house after His resurrection?

If you think not, then judge for yourself how it is that He entered into the "upper room", when in fear of the Jews, the disciples had closed the doors, of which were most likely barred (locked).

Why would I think not? What Christian isn't aware of that event? Are you purposely trying to offend me here?

How does that which can be Spirit at will need or require another physical planet earth? He doesn't. We are just too lazy to think beyond the doctrines of Christendom.

What do you think, that we won't have any actual place to dwell for eternity? Where do you think we will spend eternity once it is ushered in?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But there is. in 47 verses which give us time periods, to simply added up. Also fitted to the known date of the Babylonian conquest.

7000 years from the Creation to the Completion of Mankind:
Genesis 1:27 Adam was created in 3972.5 BC subtracted back to 586 BCE, from:

Gen 5:3 Seth +130, Gen 5:6 Enoch +105, Gen 5:9 Kenan +90, Gen 5:12 Mahalalel +70, Gen 5:15 Jared +65, Gen 5:18 Enoch +162, Gen 5:21 Methuselah +65, Gen 5:25 Lamech +187, Gen 5:28 Noah+182, Gen 7:6 The Flood came when Noah was +600, Gen 11:10 Our year 2314.5 BC
Arpachshad +2 - born to Shem after the flood. Gen 11:12 Selah +35, Gen 11:14 Heber +30, Gen 11:16 Peleg +34, Gen 11:18 Reu +30, Gen 11:20 Serug +32, Gen 11:22 Nahor +30 , Gen 11:24 Terah +29, Gen 11:26 Abram +70, Abram was +54 when God called him and they left Ur. Our year 1968.5 BCE He lived in Haran for 21 years, then went to Canaan at age 75. Genesis 12:4 Total years so far = 2000

Gen 17:1, Abraham was 99 when the Covenant was made with God. +47 Genesis 17:1-8
Galatians 3:17 Paul states that the Law was given +430 after the Covenant. Total years elapsed until the Exodus – 2477, in our year 1493.5 BC.
1 Kings 6:1 The Temple construction starts, in the 4th year of King Solomon +480 since the Torah was given at the Exodus.. 1 Kings 11:42 Solomon 40 minus 4 = +36, 1 Kings 14:21 Rehoboam +17, 1 Kings 15:2 Abijah +3, 2 Chron 16:13 Asa +41, 1 Kings 22:42 Jehoshaphat +25, 2 Kings 8:17 Jehoram +8, 2 Kings 8:26 Ahaziah +1, 2 Kings 11:1-3 Athaliah +6, 2 Kings 12:1 Joash +40, 2 Kings 14:2 Amaziah +29, 2 Kings 15:1-2 Azariah +52, 2 Kings 15:33 Jotham +16, 2 Kings 16:2 Ahaz +16, 2 Kings 18:1-2 Hezekiah +29, 2 Kings 21:1 Manasseh +55, 2 Kings 21:19 Amon +2, 2 Kings 22:1 Josiah +31, 2 Kings 23:31 Jehoahaz +3mths, 2 Kings 23:36 Jehoiakim +11, 2 Kings 24:8 Jehoichin +3mths, 2 Kings 24:18-20 Zedekiah +11, who ruled until the Babylonian captivity in our year of 586 BC.

Total elapsed years to the first exile of Judah = 3386.5
3386.5 + 586 = 3972.5 years from 1BC to when Adam was Created.

586 BC + 613.5 years + 2 comes to 29.5/30 AD, the date of Jesus’ acclamation as King of Israel. Plus 2 to include the total number of elapsed years, as our calendar system counts years from their commencement.
3386.5 + 613.5 = 4000 years from Adam to Jesus.
Now - almost another 2000 years since Jesus, when He will Return and then come the Sabbath 1000 years for the earth and mankind; the beneficent reign of Jesus for a Millennium.
AFTER that comes the final Judgment and Eternity.

The idea of the end coming when Jeus Returns, is false and is a direct rejection of the Prophecies in Revelation 20, plus Isaiah 2:1-4 and may other scriptures.

None of those scriptures say anything about a supposed 7,000 year plan. And where does Satan's little season fit in that plan? Did you forget about that time period?

You say the idea of the end coming when Jesus returns is false which shows that you clearly don't believe that Paul knew what he was talking about.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul taught that the end will come when Christ comes again. I'll take Paul's word over yours every time.

 

[ewq1938]

Wrong!

No, it's right. Many people whom this applies to will quote these scriptures to others.

 

[Keraz]

None of those scriptures say anything about a supposed 7,000 year plan.

The fact they add up to 2 exact 2000 year tranches, with the third now nearing completion, is proof enough. Your opinions are false.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Your belief of this Prophecy of Pauls, being a continuous narrative, is wrong, as Jesus must have had the Kingdom, as the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords; Rev 19:16, for some time after the Return; which we are plainly told - will be a thousand years, THEN He will hand the Kingdom back to God, Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Earburner]

I have no respect for any beliefs that someone has all to themselves. God doesn't reveal truth to just one person.

In "comparing spiritual things with spiritual", I always back up my perceptions and interpretations with scripture.

And what about where we will dwell in our glorified bodies? Scripture says that one we inherit the new heavens and new earth there will then be no more death, sorrow, crying or pain (Rev 21:4). That hasn't happened yet.

When Jesus Ascended into heaven, he left this earth in His Immortal body, and while He was in the air, He disappeared in a cloud from their sight. Acts 1:9
Did you forget that Jesus has the ability to be visible or invisible at will? See the event of the disciples in the room with doors shut for fear of the Jews. John 20:19-20.

Where do you think we will dwell for eternity?

With Jesus!!
John 14:3, 17:24; Luke 23:42-43; 1 Thes. 4:17.

How would any Christian not know this, knowing that Jesus appeared out of nowhere to His disciples in a locked house after His resurrection?

Actually, by the way your replies came across, I thought that you did forget, or may have subconsciously put limitations on Jesus unknowingly.
Yes!! Jesus can suddenly appear anywhere at will, just like the disciples in the room having the doors shut, as well as Jesus Himself meeting Saul (Paul) suddenly on the road to Damascus.

Why would I think not? What Christian isn't aware of that event? Are you purposely trying to offend me here?

I have no desire to offend you or anyone here about their belief in Jesus!! I simply think that some have not followed through with their thinking (by Christ's mind) of how it is that we each really are "a New creature", still in waiting for the Day of His sudden and Glorious appearance from heaven, longing to be resurrected/changed INTO HIS LIKENESS!! Rom. 6:5.
So now, ask yourself: WHAT exactly is His likeness?? (In the above, I have provided the answers).

What do you think, that we won't have any actual place to dwell for eternity? Where do you think we will spend eternity once it is ushered in?

To be IN Jesus, is to be IN the KoG, and to be IN the KoG, is to be IN Jesus.
We are not going to a mansion, WE ARE the mansions of God's dwelling place, through Jesus, for Jesus Himself IS HIS Father's "House". John 14:2.
Please see the repentant thief on the cross. The answer that he recieved is sufficient for us all, who believe. Luke 23:42-43.
John 11[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER die. Believest thou this?

1 Thes. 4[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 Edit: to follow through with what I am saying: Jesus, who NOW IS IN Heaven with His Father, still having the ability to be Immortal flesh or Spirit at will, in the moment of now, as well as the PAST 2025 years, has He needed ANYTHING of this present physical old earth, or that of a supposed new planet earth?
I dare say, no not at all!!

Q. Are we not going to be "changed" into that of His Likeness?
A. Already provided!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The fact they add up to 2 exact 2000 year tranches, with the third now nearing completion, is proof enough. Your opinions are false.

Your belief of this Prophecy of Pauls, being a continuous narrative, is wrong, as Jesus must have had the Kingdom, as the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords; Rev 19:16, for some time after the Return; which we are plainly told - will be a thousand years, THEN He will hand the Kingdom back to God, Revelation 21:1-7

I am correct that your doctrine contradicts what Paul taught. He did not teach that there would be multiple mass resurrections of believers in the future as you believe.

Also, Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords right now.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In "comparing spiritual things with spiritual", I always back up my perceptions and interpretations with scripture.

That's what we all think, but if we have any beliefs all to ourselves, that should raise a red flag. Do you believe that God reveals some truth only to you?

When Jesus Ascended into heaven, he left this earth in His Immortal body, and while He was in the air, He disappeared in a cloud from their sight. Acts 1:9
Did you forget that Jesus has the ability to be visible or invisible at will? See the event of the disciples in the room with doors shut for fear of the Jews. John 20:19-20.

When did I say otherwise? I didn't. Are you sure you're reading what I'm saying? I said absolutely nothing that would suggest that I didn't believe Jesus has the ability to be visible or invisible at will. I referenced Him appearing out of nowhere in a locked house, which you alluded to here. You're telling me this as if I didn't already reference that myself. Please be more careful to read what I actually say.

Actually, by the way your replies came across, I thought that you did forget, or may have subconsciously put limitations on Jesus unknowingly.

Again, I have said absolutely nothing to suggest that I'm not aware of what Jesus was able to do after His resurrection and nothing to suggest that He had limitations at that point.

Yes!! Jesus can suddenly appear anywhere at will, just like the disciples in the room having the doors shut, as well as Jesus Himself meeting Saul (Paul) suddenly on the road to Damascus.

Just as I already said myself as well. You are wasting your time telling me something I already said myself.

I have no desire to offend you or anyone here about their belief in Jesus!! I simply think that some have not followed through with their thinking (by Christ's mind) of how it is that we each really are "a New creature", still in waiting for the Day of His sudden and Glorious appearance from heaven, longing to be resurrected/changed INTO HIS LIKENESS!! Rom. 6:5.
So now, ask yourself: WHAT exactly is His likeness?? (In the above, I have provided the answers).

Don't lump me in with others. Don't make assumptions about what I believe. I will tell you what I believe. I don't know for sure what you even mean with your question, but 1 John 3:2 says we will see Him as He is when He comes and we will be like Him, which I assume means we too will be able to be visible or invisible at will just as He has been since His resurrection.

To be IN Jesus, is to be IN the KoG, and to be IN the KoG, is to be IN Jesus.
We are not going to a mansion, WE ARE the mansions of God's dwelling place, through Jesus, for Jesus Himself IS HIS Father's "House". John 14:2.
Please see the repentant thief on the cross. The answer that he recieved is sufficient for us all, who believe. Luke 23:42-43.
John 11[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER die. Believest thou this?

1 Thes. 4[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 Edit: to follow through with what I am saying: Jesus, who NOW IS IN Heaven with His Father, still having the ability to be Immortal flesh or Spirit at will, in the moment of now, as well as the PAST 2025 years, has He needed ANYTHING of this present physical old earth, or that of a supposed new planet earth?
I dare say, no not at all!!

Q. Are we not going to be "changed" into that of His Likeness?
A. Already provided!

I truly don't know what your point is here. Do you not believe we will have an actual eternal dwelling place once He comes again? What is your understanding of what things will be like at that point? No new heavens and new earth to dwell in?