Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[St. SteVen]

Why does indwelling require one to be God?

You're right, it doesn't.
People can be indwelt by demons. - LOL

Either way the indwelling is of a spiritual entity.

[

 

[David in NJ]

What oral tradition? It didn't exist then.

And yet you ignore them about idolatry.

JESUS said their oral tradition existed at His Time on earth and they used oral tradition to circumvent the Word of God.
JESUS also said: "and many other things as well" = Mark 7:13

And yet you ignore them about idolatry.

Who is "them" ???

We pray to the MESSIAH for our Jewish neighbors and friends that they may know their MESSIAH

 

[David in NJ]

Hello, my cousin…

Are you aware of the Greek words used here, especially the one you’re highlighting for “robbery”?

First, let’s take the phrase “in the form of”… morphē, in Greek. It means just that: “form” or “shape”.
What “shape”, or “form”, does God have? He is spirit. Angels have that same form: they too are spirit.
A few translations, however, say “Though he was God…”! They just remove the entire phrase “in the form of”! Why? Because they have a trinitarian agenda. Altering God’s Word, to favor a bias!
If Paul had wanted to say “he [Jesus] was God”, that would’ve been a great opportunity! But Paul didn’t say that.



Now, please, let’s examine the Greek word highlighted for “robbery”… Some say “exploit”.
But most translations - at least, as far as the ones I’ve read, quite a few - most render it “grasped”.

The Greek word here, is “harpagmon”, and it always means “to reach (for),” “to grasp (at)”. And it indicates ‘with violence or force’. That’s why the word “robbery” is used. Sometimes harpagmon is rendered “seized”.

But “harpagmon” never ever means “hold onto”, or “keep”.

It is always about “grasping” for something not in possession!

And this agrees with the context: afterward “God exalted him”. You can’t exalt God higher than he already was.

Good Morning @HC

Three Persons of the Godhead are made very clear in the NT Scriptures = Ephesians 4:4
there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Apostles KNOW that the Word that was God is the LORD from the OT Scriptures

 

[Johann]

First, let’s take the phrase “in the form of”… morphē, in Greek. It means just that: “form” or “shape”.
What “shape”, or “form”, does God have? He is spirit. Angels have that same form: they too are spirit.
A few translations, however, say “Though he was God…”! They just remove the entire phrase “in the form of”! Why? Because they have a trinitarian agenda. Altering God’s Word, to favor a bias!
If Paul had wanted to say “he [Jesus] was God”, that would’ve been a great opportunity! But Paul didn’t say that.

This is incorrect @TheHC

Your argument misrepresents both the Greek text of Philippians 2:6 and the implications of the word morphē (μορφή).

1. On the Meaning of "Morphē"

The Greek word morphē does not simply mean "shape" or "form" as understood in purely physical terms.

In classical and Hellenistic Greek usage, morphē refers to the essential nature or characteristic attributes of something, not merely its external appearance.

Support from Lexicons:

BDAG defines morphē as "the nature or character of something, with emphasis upon both the internal and external form."

Liddell-Scott-Jones (LSJ) associates morphē with the "form by which a thing strikes the vision," which includes not only appearance but also the essence conveyed by that form.

In Philippians 2:6, morphē theou (μορφῇ θεοῦ) refers to Christ's possession of the essential characteristics of God.

The text does not describe a "physical shape" but instead conveys that Christ shares in the divine nature.

2. Misrepresentation of the Text
Your argument claims some translations omit "in the form of" due to a Trinitarian bias, but this is incorrect.

Translations like the NIV and NASB explicitly retain the phrase "in the form of God," rendering it faithfully to the Greek text.
The phrase "Though he was in the form of God" (ESV) or "Who, being in very nature God" (NIV) reflects morphē theou accurately.

3. Context of Philippians 2:6
Paul's choice of words emphasizes Christ's divine status before his incarnation. The verse states:

hos en morphē theou hyparchōn (ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων): "Who, existing in the form of God."

The participle hyparchōn (ὑπάρχων) implies continuous existence or being, indicating that Christ was and remained in the divine form before taking on human likeness (Philippians 2:7).

The use of morphē here aligns with the theological claim that Christ existed in the essential nature of God.

4. Paul Did Not Say "Jesus Is God"?

Your argument implies that Paul deliberately avoided saying Jesus is God, but this overlooks both the immediate context and the broader Pauline corpus.

In Philippians 2:6–11, Paul presents a high Christology:

Christ is said to possess the "form of God" (morphē theou) and does not consider equality with God (to einai isa theō) something to be exploited, which implies he is on par with God in nature.

Christ is exalted and receives "the name that is above every name," and "every knee should bow" to him (Philippians 2:9–10), echoing Isaiah 45:23, a passage about Yahweh.

Elsewhere, Paul explicitly affirms Christ's divinity:
Colossians 1:15–19: Christ is the "image of the invisible God" and "in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."

Titus 2:13: Paul refers to Christ as "our great God and Savior."

5. Your accusation of Trinitarian Bias

The accusation of bias against translators is unfounded:

The charge assumes malice without evidence. Most reputable translations are produced by scholars committed to faithfully conveying the Greek text.
Many early church fathers, long before the formal development of Trinitarian theology, understood Philippians 2:6–11 as affirming Christ’s divine preexistence and equality with God.

502 words 3,137 characters

J.

 

[David in NJ]

This is incorrect @TheHC

Your argument misrepresents both the Greek text of Philippians 2:6 and the implications of the word morphē (μορφή).

1. On the Meaning of "Morphē"

The Greek word morphē does not simply mean "shape" or "form" as understood in purely physical terms.

In classical and Hellenistic Greek usage, morphē refers to the essential nature or characteristic attributes of something, not merely its external appearance.

Support from Lexicons:

BDAG defines morphē as "the nature or character of something, with emphasis upon both the internal and external form."

Liddell-Scott-Jones (LSJ) associates morphē with the "form by which a thing strikes the vision," which includes not only appearance but also the essence conveyed by that form.

In Philippians 2:6, morphē theou (μορφῇ θεοῦ) refers to Christ's possession of the essential characteristics of God.

The text does not describe a "physical shape" but instead conveys that Christ shares in the divine nature.

2. Misrepresentation of the Text
Your argument claims some translations omit "in the form of" due to a Trinitarian bias, but this is incorrect.

Translations like the NIV and NASB explicitly retain the phrase "in the form of God," rendering it faithfully to the Greek text.
The phrase "Though he was in the form of God" (ESV) or "Who, being in very nature God" (NIV) reflects morphē theou accurately.

3. Context of Philippians 2:6
Paul's choice of words emphasizes Christ's divine status before his incarnation. The verse states:

hos en morphē theou hyparchōn (ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων): "Who, existing in the form of God."

The participle hyparchōn (ὑπάρχων) implies continuous existence or being, indicating that Christ was and remained in the divine form before taking on human likeness (Philippians 2:7).

The use of morphē here aligns with the theological claim that Christ existed in the essential nature of God.

4. Paul Did Not Say "Jesus Is God"?

Your argument implies that Paul deliberately avoided saying Jesus is God, but this overlooks both the immediate context and the broader Pauline corpus.

In Philippians 2:6–11, Paul presents a high Christology:

Christ is said to possess the "form of God" (morphē theou) and does not consider equality with God (to einai isa theō) something to be exploited, which implies he is on par with God in nature.

Christ is exalted and receives "the name that is above every name," and "every knee should bow" to him (Philippians 2:9–10), echoing Isaiah 45:23, a passage about Yahweh.

Elsewhere, Paul explicitly affirms Christ's divinity:
Colossians 1:15–19: Christ is the "image of the invisible God" and "in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."

Titus 2:13: Paul refers to Christ as "our great God and Savior."

5. Your accusation of Trinitarian Bias

The accusation of bias against translators is unfounded:

The charge assumes malice without evidence. Most reputable translations are produced by scholars committed to faithfully conveying the Greek text.
Many early church fathers, long before the formal development of Trinitarian theology, understood Philippians 2:6–11 as affirming Christ’s divine preexistence and equality with God.

502 words 3,137 characters

J.

That was a great cup of coffee - ty

 

[Ritajanice]

What is our spirit though? How would we define it?

I will answer this question first as best I can.

I became Born Again having never read a Bible, I didn’t even know that I had a spirit as a non believer,...it wasn’t until my spirit became Born Again by supernatural divine heart revelation, even then that’s all I knew , that I was Born Again.

The Spirit testifies with “ our spirit “ that we are the children of God, again the Spirit has brought me to understanding how I communicate with him, which is my spirit as it’s now Born Again it’s reconciled back with my Spiritual Father God, ...I guess it’s the part in us that was lost during the fall of Adam, the inner man, ...Adam also lost fellowship with God imo, ....it’s a horrible place to be, even though I never knew I was alienated from God as a non believer, it wasn’t until my spirit became alive in the Spirit of Christ ,only then was I aware of my alienation from God in my spirit, as I had just been reunited with him in spirit, it was a huge mind blowing shock to be honest, I could not believe that God recognised me as his spirit child...as his Holy Spirit was indwelling my spirit the Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am Gods child, how else could I possibly know God?

God is a Living Spirit, that’s how our spirit communicates with him, there is no communication with God imo any other way for me,..we communicate with God via our hearts, ...always been that way for me from day one, ..it’s all a learning experience ...as I was once in the world, Living as a worldly person, to suddenly being taken out of the world....into God’s Spiritual world....from then on I have grown in spiritual knowledge and continue to do so..

The world taught me wrong, The Spirit teaches me his way how to live a life for Jesus,...it’s been a long hard ,enduring journey, but, the Spirit keeps me focused on Jesus...I have to look to God in every situation.....he’s in complete control of my life...that’s my story so far, any questions please ask.....it has also been a very lonely journey as even other Born Agains don’t understand me, I’ve only met one Born Again who has the same level of faith that I have, we fellowship a lot on FB.... I know in my spirit that I was chosen and predestined to become a child of God....to be used by him for his Glory, his plan all according to his will for my life....

Edit to add ,without God’s Living testimony who indwells my spirit permanently, I would know nothing and certainly wouldn’t know God...he is the revealer/ testimony/ witness of Gods truth....still blows my mind after 33 yrs of becoming Born Again.

All my testimony and belief Aunty.

 

[Johann]

That was a great cup of coffee - ty

I need to top up my caffeine! @David in NJ.

J.

 

[MonoBiblical]

JESUS said their oral tradition

Jesus said no such thing.

Who is "them" ???

Your Jewish friends.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus said no such thing.

Your Jewish friends.

Jesus said no such thing.

Sure HE did - Mark 7:13


He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

9He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.
And many such things you do.”

How are traditions handed down? = in that time it was predominantly oral and this continues to this day

Your Jewish friends.

the Jewish people are just as idolatrous as any Gentile, therefore God has concluded ALL are under the death of Sin.

Their eyes can only be opened by the LORD = same for you and me and everyone else.

@MonoBiblical do you hold to this idolatry = the Word was "a god" ???

 

[Wrangler]

You're right, it doesn't.
People can be indwelt by demons. - LOL

Either way the indwelling is of a spiritual entity.

Astounding logic! Circular Reasoning, imply a premise that is the conclusion you are trying to support. Paul performed miracles, how could he not be God?

 

[David in NJ]

Seriously...this is all you have to say when the truth is presented in such plain terms?
Where is your defence? You simply have the same rehashed verses that have been explained to you countless times....and yet you still cling to Catholic doctrine like your life depends on it....you didn’t run very far did you?

Genesis ch 5 is the history of man in a genealogy list showing the ages of men in the pre-flood era.
Why did they live such long lives in the beginning? Do you have any idea? Why did the lifespan of humans diminish, as we got further away from our original perfection?...and especially after the deluge....?

Abraham lived only 175 years. (Gen 25:7) Today, much as it was in the time of Moses, people living under favorable conditions may reach seventy or eighty years of age or even more. My own mother lived to 98.
Moses wrote: “In themselves the days of our years are seventy years; and if because of special mightiness they are eighty years, yet their insistence is on trouble and hurtful things; for it must quickly pass by, and away we fly.” (Psalm 90:10)

Those of us who have now grown old, wonder where our youth has gone and lament that the time we have left is now reduced. We have all experienced our share of “trouble and hurtful things” in this life.....but we know that all will be restored back to God’s original purpose for us......including our youth. We are not meant to grow old and die....it is so foreign to our psyche to look in the mirror when the young person inside is looking at an old person on the outside....it is very confronting.

Some believe that the human race was placed here on earth as a training ground for heaven.......was it?
Or were human beings created to live on earth forever?
What did God say after Adam partook of the TKGE at his wife’s urging?

Genesis 3:22-24...
God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23  With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24  So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

Why did God prevent access to “the tree of life” after Adam sinned? The cherubs posted as guardians would have remained there until the flood changed the landscape completely. If the tree of life survived the flood, then no one would be able to identify it or find it. The “trees of life” are not mentioned again until Revelation....and they are for “the curing of the nations”. (Rev 22:1-2) Why? Because “the meek will inherit the earth”.....and true to his first purpose, God will restore his original plan and restore his earth to what he intended it to be. (Isa 55:11)

God created mankind to live forever on earth in paradise conditions.....we humans are naturally drawn to paradisaic places, but in our imperfection, we end up turning them into overcrowded tourist resorts making ridiculous amounts of money out of this innate human need. There was an old song that said...”you pave paradise and put up a parking lot” and then......”don’t it always seem to go, that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone...”......and before long it’s not paradise anymore. Greedy humans have ruined it.

God’s original purpose will go ahead......but only those who truly “know” the God that Jesus taught about will enter the enter the Kingdom as “kings and priests” in its administration. (Rev 20:6) Those not chosen for a role in heaven will be blessed to be citizens over whom the king and his chosen assistants will rule.
The very best government that mankind has ever had!

Paradise was lost.....and paradise will be restored. It is God’s will......so nothing can stop it. (Rev 21:2-4)
Will we be there.....? That is the question....

Seriously...this is all you have to say when the truth is presented in such plain terms?

2 Peter 3:5
For this they(@Aunty Jane) willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

There was an old song that said...”you pave paradise and put up a parking lot” and then......”don’t it always seem to go, that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone...”......and before long it’s not paradise anymore. Greedy humans have ruined it.

All true and i like that song

Paradise was lost.....and paradise will be restored. It is God’s will......so nothing can stop it. (Rev 21:2-4)
Will we be there.....? That is the question....

That Question has been Answered.

Since you do not know the answer it means only one thing = you have not submitted to the Righteousness of God

 

[St. SteVen]

Astounding logic! Circular Reasoning, imply a premise that is the conclusion you are trying to support. Paul performed miracles, how could he not be God?

I don't believe that Jesus performed miracles in his divinity, but rather in his humanity, with God the Father working through Him.
How could Jesus expect us to do miracles if He was performing them through His deity?

Philippians 2:5-7 NIV
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself;
he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

[

 

[David in NJ]

I don't believe that Jesus performed miracles in his divinity, but rather in his humanity, with God the Father working through Him.
How could Jesus expect us to do miracles if He was performing them through His deity?

Philippians 2:5-7 NIV
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself;
he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

[

John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself;
He can do only what He sees His Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. = Shared DIVINITY

Jesus shared DIVINITY in the FATHER and this was pleasing to the FATHER = Matt 3:17

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him,
and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
17And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” = Divinity with the FATHER

 

[St. SteVen]

John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself;
He can do only what He sees His Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. = Shared DIVINITY

Jesus shared DIVINITY in the FATHER and this was pleasing to the FATHER = Matt 3:17

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him,
and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
17And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” = Divinity with the FATHER

Did Jesus claim personal credit for his miracles?
Does Jesus expect us to do miracles?

Allowing the Father to work miracles through Him does not negate his deity.

Philippians 2:5-7 NIV
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

[

 

[David in NJ]

Did Jesus claim personal credit for his miracles?
Does Jesus expect us to do miracles?

Allowing the Father to work miracles through Him does not negate his deity.

Philippians 2:5-7 NIV
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

[

JESUS clearly emphasized this in John 5:19 = "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself"

This does not denote HE was incapable of doing miracles but rather HE came not to do His will but His FATHER's Will be done!

Do you see the difference???
Let's look at the whole passage

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

18Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.
He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Here is the same condemnation upon Watchtower followers as it was upon those who took up stones against the Word that was God

 

[Ritajanice]

Since you do not know the answer it means only one thing = you have not submitted to the Righteousness of God

Sorry David, this is not true....because Auntie doesn’t know the answer ....I don’t know what it means to be baptised in the Spirit....does that also mean that I haven’t submitted to the righteousness of God..or that I’m not Born Again......I think not.

Are you witnessing on behalf of God?..by the power of his Spirit...if so...scripture please?

 

[David in NJ]

Sorry David, this is not true....because Auntie doesn’t know the answer ....I don’t know what it means to be baptised in the Spirit....does that also mean that I haven’t submitted to the righteousness of God..or that I’m not Born Again......I think not.

Are you witnessing on behalf of God?..by the power of his Spirit...if so...scripture please?

"from the heart a man speaks" - Matthew 12:37

"For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Believing is falsehood is seeking to establish your own righteousness = the Word was "a god"

Salvation is a Person and that Person being God = Isaiah 43:1-3

But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you.
For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

 

[Wrangler]

I don't believe that Jesus performed miracles in his divinity, but rather in his humanity, with God the Father working through Him.
How could Jesus expect us to do miracles if He was performing them through His deity?

So odd how trinitarians just presume a nature contrary to what Scripture says. Just presume he has 2 natures.

 

[Ritajanice]

"from the heart a man speaks" - Matthew 12:37

"For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Believing is falsehood is seeking to establish your own righteousness = the Word was "a god"

Salvation is a Person and that Person being God = Isaiah 43:1-3

But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you.
For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

The thing is though David..you don’t know Aunties heart and you certainly don’t know mine...or where our hearts are with God.....

Seek God with all your heart @David in NJ ...for there is where you will find him.

@Aunty Jane ..do you understand being baptised in the Spirit?....I haven’t a clue what that means.

 

[Ritajanice]

So odd how trinitarians just presume a nature contrary to what Scripture says. Just presume he has 2 natures.

We can’t presume Jesus had two,natures, when it’s not Biblical....at least I don’t think it is...is it?