Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[David in NJ]

The thing is though David..you don’t know Aunties heart and you certainly don’t know mine...or where our hearts are with God.....

Seek God with all your heart @David in NJ ...for there is where you will find him.

@Aunty Jane ..do you understand being baptised in the Spirit?....I haven’t a clue what that means.

The thing is though David..you don’t know Aunties heart and you certainly don’t know mine...or where our hearts are with God.....

100% Truth and why the LORD says "do not judge"

Same LORD says "out of the heart a man speaks" and "by our own words we judge ourselves"

@Aunty Jane , @Wrangler are constantly judging themselves by their own words = and not unto Salvation

Do i love my Aunty Jane? = absolutely and even Wrangler = therefore i warn them these things Spoken by the LORD

In so doing i also remind myself of the absolute need to do this = Matthew 4:4

i was raised RCC and the LORD set me FREE from it's falsehood = this does not mean all catholics are lost

In every denomanation where the Gospel is preached God will SAVE some

Pray that they come to the LIGHT where they can see their hopeless estate and CLING to Salvation

Hear my cry, O God;
Attend to my prayer.
From the end of the earth I will cry to You,
When my heart is overwhelmed;
Lead me to the Rock that is higher than I.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that accompanied them, and that Rock was Christ.
But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

 

[Ritajanice]

100% Truth and why the LORD says "do not judge"

Same LORD says "out of the heart a man speaks" and "by our own words we judge ourselves"

@Aunty Jane , @Wrangler are constantly judging themselves by their own words = and not unto Salvation

Do i love my Aunty Jane? = absolutely and even Wrangler = therefore i warn them these things Spoken by the LORD

In so doing i also remind myself of the absolute need to do this = Matthew 4:4

i was raised RCC and the LORD set me FREE from it's falsehood = this does not mean all catholics are lost

In every denomanation where the Gospel is preached God will SAVE some

Pray that they come to the LIGHT where they can see their hopeless estate and CLING to Salvation

Hear my cry, O God;
Attend to my prayer.
From the end of the earth I will cry to You,
When my heart is overwhelmed;
Lead me to the Rock that is higher than I.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that accompanied them, and that Rock was Christ.
But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

You understand what is being said here David ...I don’t...nor do I need to...I’m on my own my own journey with God, the same as Aunty ,the same as wrangler...and thankfully all 3 of us know so....

Most of the scripture you cite, I haven’t a clue what any of it means.....it’s scripture...I just don’t understand it.....the same as there is some scripture that you don’t understand..

Do you understand the highlighted part David....

Romans 8

King James Version

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Sure HE did - Mark 7:13

There was no such thing as oral tradition at that time.

 

[David in NJ]

You understand what is being said here David ...I don’t...nor do I need to...I’m on my own my own journey with God, the same as Aunty ,the same as wrangler...and thankfully all 3 of us know so....

Most of the scripture you cite, I haven’t a clue what any of it means.....it’s scripture...I just don’t understand it.....

Do you understand the highlighted part David....

Romans 8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

the same as there is some scripture that you don’t understand..

Sure there is = but not concerning Salvation

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

100% Truth

What are you missing, not SEEING, in verse 8 as it pertains to Aunty Jane & Wrangler ???

 

[David in NJ]

There was no such thing as oral tradition at that time.

JESUS lied???

He went on to say, “You neatly set aside the command of God to maintain your own tradition.

Thus you nullify the word of God by the tradition you have handed down.

 

[MonoBiblical]

the Jewish people are just as idolatrous as any Gentile, therefore God has concluded ALL are under the death of Sin.

They don't make diagrams of a trinity or venerate phony icons and relics of crosses with Jesus on them calling it god.

 

[Ritajanice]

Sure there is = but not concerning Salvation


100% Truth

What are you missing, not SEEING, in verse 8 as it pertains to Aunty Jane & Wrangler ???

What am I missing? I am seeing I am not to judge their beliefs, which I’ve done in the past...

You are standing in judgement of them...that is what I see.

Your posts to me at times have been judgemental and condemning....I have also done the same.

Your condemning posts don’t touch me David because I know who I am in Christ, as does wrangler , he is Born Again as he’s said so...not sure about Auntie..I know she has the Spirit, because she has also said so, some time back....force will get you nowhere and it’s certainly not of the Spirit...it’s Of “ you”.

 

[MonoBiblical]

JESUS lied???

You realize Mark 7:13 says nothing about the Talmud and may be about a custom rather than tradition.

 

[David in NJ]

They don't make diagrams of a trinity or venerate phony icons and relics of crosses with Jesus on them calling it god.

FLEE idolatry = i did = how about you???

i was raised RCC and then THREE Elohim called me out of the Vatican Harlot

No more need of crosses, religious clothing and works, religious buildings and man made traditions that make void the Truth

How about you???

 

[David in NJ]

What am I missing? I am seeing I am not to judge their beliefs, which I’ve done in the past...

You are standing in judgement of them...that is what I see.

Your posts to me at times have been judgemental and condemning....I have also done the same.

Your condemning posts don’t touch me David because I know who I am in Christ, as does wrangler , he is Born Again as he’s said so...not sure about Auntie..I know she has the Spirit, because she has also said so, some time back....force will get you nowhere and it’s certainly not of the Spirit...it’s Of “ you”.

What am I missing? I am seeing I am not to judge their beliefs, which I’ve done in the past...

Their beliefs can save them apart from the Word that was God???

You are standing in judgement of them...that is what I see.

Here you are in complete error and thus you cannot SEE what Aunty Jane and Wrangler are missing in Romans v8 that you posted

You cannot defend the spirit of error in the LIGHT, for the two are not compatible.

Do you want to SEE Aunty and Wr in the LIGHT or that they remain in the darkness of "a god"???

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

 

[Ritajanice]

Their beliefs can save them apart from the Word that was God???


Here you are in complete error and thus you cannot SEE what Aunty Jane and Wrangler are missing in Romans v8 that you posted

You cannot defend the spirit of error in the LIGHT, for the two are not compatible.

Do you want to SEE Aunty and Wr in the LIGHT or that they remain in the darkness of "a god"???

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

You are not GOD David...Praise God for that....if anyone is in error it’s you...now please don’t keep preaching to me,about @Aunty Jane and @Wrangler .... my authority and leading comes from the Spirit....not from you....

If you want to preach your self righteousness,Holy Of holies, superiority to everyone else ....go elsewhere, cause this believer only listens to the Spirit Of God and I don’t hear him speaking out of your condescending, judgemental mouth.

Please stop interacting with me...thank you.

 

[Johann]

Their beliefs can save them apart from the Word that was God???


Here you are in complete error and thus you cannot SEE what Aunty Jane and Wrangler are missing in Romans v8 that you posted

You cannot defend the spirit of error in the LIGHT, for the two are not compatible.

Do you want to SEE Aunty and Wr in the LIGHT or that they remain in the darkness of "a god"???

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

1 John 4:5-6
They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Genesis 3:1-5
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, "You shall not eat of every tree of the garden"?" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, "You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die."" Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Romans 16:17-18
Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



Related Scriptures
Matthew 7:16
You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

John 17:17
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Haggai 2:12-13
"If one carries holy meat in the fold of his garment, and with the edge he touches bread or stew, wine or oil, or any food, will it become holy?""" Then the priests answered and said, "No." And Haggai said, "If one who is unclean because of a dead body touches any of these, will it be unclean?" So the priests answered and said, "It shall be unclean."

Ephesians 4:14
that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
The Danger in Judging

Paul writes in I Corinthians 11:1, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." He adds in Philippians 3:17, "Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern." These verses clearly invite the brethren to observe the apostle's conduct, judge if it conforms to the life Christ lived and taught, and choose to live that way as well.

To this point, it is clear that we cannot escape our responsibility to judge. Yet, in such verses as Matthew 7:1; Romans 14:3 and James 4:11-12, we are warned about judging one another. Where is the problem, or danger, in judging? The danger lies in the quality of our judgments, and consequently, any action we take on the basis of them.

In John 7:24, Jesus commands us to "judge with righteous judgment." Just a few verses earlier, the Jews who were watching and listening to Him had judged that Jesus had a demon! This is surely one of the most misguided judgments ever made. Why could they not make a better judgment than that? Because they were judging by wrong standards. They could not recognize and thus could not correctly relate to true godliness, even though in the person of Jesus it was lived in their presence and taught them truth.

The people of the time were greatly confused about Christ: "And there was much murmuring among the people concerning Him. Some said, ‘He is good'; others said, ‘No, on the contrary, He deceives the people'" (verse 12). On another occasion, Jesus asked His own disciples, "‘Who do men say that I, the Son of man, am?' So they said, ‘Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets'" (Matthew 16:13-14). The people's judgment of Him was so prejudiced by their carnality that "He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11).

Could our judgment of people in whom Christ lives also be somewhat distorted because of carnality still active within us? This is part of the equation. We may be ill-equipped to make a sound judgment because we are unable to recognize godly qualities or to understand the factors involved in another's conduct.

But judging is still a necessary part of life in the church. Consider the apostle Paul's judgment of the man who was openly sinning while fellowshipping with the Corinthian congregation:

For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged, as though I were present, concerning him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (I Corinthians 5:3-5)

Paul not only judged, he judged on the basis of the testimony and judgment of others he trusted! He then disfellowshipped the man without hearing the man's own testimony! This is the same man who wrote in Romans 14, "Who are you to judge another's servant?" (verse 4) and "But why do you judge your brother?" (verse 10). He obviously strongly believed that when the spiritual and moral integrity of a congregation was threatened by blatant sin, judgment was necessary.

We are permitted to judge erroneous teachings, particularly when they come from those who do not believe the Scriptures are God-breathed and instead rely on extra-biblical experiences that are not aligned with what is written. @David in NJ

J.

 

[Wrangler]

We can’t presume Jesus had two,natures, when it’s not Biblical....at least I don’t think it is...is it?

No. It's not Biblical that Jesus has 2 natures. If you read into the text (eisegesis), you can make up anything you want, e.g., it says X and that means Y. However, creative interpretation, speculative interpretation is not explicitly Biblical. Let me provide an example.

Suppose there was an autobiography of the most revered, accomplished person who ever lived. Further suppose this person stated he was from Boston. That is the authoritative narrative. Why go beyond - and even contradict - what the story explicitly states? What is the motive?

For instance, was the most revered, accomplished person who ever lived born in Boston? Or was he born elsewhere then moved to Boston when his exploits began? The text does not say. We could read into things he said or did that it means that he must have lived in A or B. Sure, it could be true but it could also be untrue. He may be that knew a guy who knew a guy ... The autobiography is his story, told his way, with the level of details he felt like sharing. The known facts are that he's from Boston and he said and did things. The point is why speculate beyond the text? And when one speculates beyond the text, it is inaccurate to call it autobiographical.

Scripture states explicitly and repeatedly that Jesus is a man. That's good enough for me. The absence of the trinity doctrine in Scripture is profound; nowhere does it explicitly state the man has 2 natures. Why are explicit Biblical teachings subordinated to eisegesis? Trinitarians flatter themselves to suppose the trinity is implied but that is false. Speculation and eisegesis is not an implication. It's just as valid to speculate other possibilities. To state Jesus is a man implies he does NOT have a dual nature. There is the trinitarian contradiction. (For it naturally follows from the Law of Mutual Exclusion, the Law of Identity. Definition. The only out is to define "man" to have dual natures, i.e., all men have dual natures. But this does not help the trinitarian cause).

 

[Wrangler]

I don’t hear him speaking out of your condescending, judgemental mouth.

Please stop interacting with me...thank you.

That's why I put him on ignore a long time ago.

 

[MonoBiblical]

FLEE idolatry = i did = how about you???

i was raised RCC and then THREE Elohim called me out of the Vatican Harlot

No more need of crosses, religious clothing and works, religious buildings and man made traditions that make void the Truth

How about you???

No, you haven't. You still believe God needs to be a man.

 

[Wrangler]

@Aunty Jane ..do you understand being baptised in the Spirit?....I haven’t a clue what that means.

I know that this question was directed at Aunty Jane but I have some insight you might find helpful.

The Bible is a highly figurative book. So, there is a lot of symbolism to what is presented. Think of the elements of the sacraments: bread, wine, water. One of the amazing things about the New Covenant is how it uses the most common items common people would have access to. What is special is not the bread or the wine or the water. What is special is what they symbolize. In a ritual, they may even be blessed to be made holy.

I hold that baptism is a public and symbolic display of a transformation that has already happened. (This is akin to a commitment couples have toward each other before the wedding ceremony. The wedding ring merely symbolizes the commitment; it is not some magical metal that forces commitment.) The transformation of our spirit, where we humbly surrender ours to receive our God's spirit is the meaning of being baptized in the Spirit. Otherwise, Christians might have used force to baptize people with water AS IF that means a genuine conversion has taken place. We all know that is not how it works.

Hope this helps.

 

[David in NJ]

That's why I put him on ignore a long time ago.

You placed me on ignore because your own logic fails you as you speak against the Word of God.

JESUS says you will either believe His words or reject them = you cannot serve two masters

But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
He who is of God hears God’s words;

A SURE sign that a person remains in darkness is that they will not come to the LIGHT = JESUS is the LIGHT

When a person rejects the words of JESUS they reject God

 

[David in NJ]

No, you haven't. You still believe God needs to be a man.

Since when does God need man's help?

You and i need God's help, therefore HE sent His Word and His Word became flesh and dwelt among us = Immanuel, God with us

God came down and showed us "IAM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the FATHER but thru me"

 

[Ritajanice]

I know that this question was directed at Aunty Jane but I have some insight you might find helpful.

The Bible is a highly figurative book. So, there is a lot of symbolism to what is presented. Think of the elements of the sacraments: bread, wine, water. One of the amazing things about the New Covenant is how it uses the most common items common people would have access to. What is special is not the bread or the wine or the water. What is special is what they symbolize. In a ritual, they may even be blessed to be made holy.

I hold that baptism is a public and symbolic display of a transformation that has already happened. (This is akin to a commitment couples have toward each other before the wedding ceremony. The wedding ring merely symbolizes the commitment; it is not some magical metal that forces commitment.) The transformation of our spirit, where we humbly surrender ours to receive our God's spirit is the meaning of being baptized in the Spirit. Otherwise, Christians might have used force to baptize people with water AS IF that means a genuine conversion has taken place. We all know that is not how it works.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the summary.

I can only understand the way I was Born Of The Spirit.

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God, this is what happened to me as the Spirit was indwelling my spirit, coming through my body and testifying with my spirit at the same time, straight away i recognised the Spirit voice, only it wasn’t an audible voice...it can’t be explained the rebirth...how God does it is pretty mind blowing..

Spirit gives birth to spirit for me = the supernatural divine birth, that came to me by divine heart revelation...the Spirit penetrated my spirit and has taken up permanent residence in my heart/ spirit......that is my own testimony/ belief.

Flesh gives birth to flesh = I was conceived by my fathers sperm penetrating my mothers egg.

Everyone’s testimony is very different....

 

[MonoBiblical]

This is incorrect @TheHC

Your argument misrepresents both the Greek text of Philippians 2:6 and the implications of the word morphē (μορφή).

1. On the Meaning of "Morphē"

The Greek word morphē does not simply mean "shape" or "form" as understood in purely physical terms.

In classical and Hellenistic Greek usage, morphē refers to the essential nature or characteristic attributes of something, not merely its external appearance.

Perhaps, pattern.

Support from Lexicons:

BDAG defines morphē as "the nature or character of something, with emphasis upon both the internal and external form."

Liddell-Scott-Jones (LSJ) associates morphē with the "form by which a thing strikes the vision," which includes not only appearance but also the essence conveyed by that form.

Pattern of colors and images associated with a form. Still this doesn't prove your point as you will see later.

In Philippians 2:6, morphē theou (μορφῇ θεοῦ) refers to Christ's possession of the essential characteristics of God.

The text does not describe a "physical shape" but instead conveys that Christ shares in the divine nature.

You have a pattern which shares divine action of God. The English is deceptive, but not disclusive.

2. Misrepresentation of the Text
Your argument claims some translations omit "in the form of" due to a Trinitarian bias, but this is incorrect.

Translations like the NIV and NASB explicitly retain the phrase "in the form of God," rendering it faithfully to the Greek text.
The phrase "Though he was in the form of God" (ESV) or "Who, being in very nature God" (NIV) reflects morphē theou accurately.

Actually, the NIV reflects it inaccurately and decides to use a dynamic equivalent.

3. Context of Philippians 2:6
Paul's choice of words emphasizes Christ's divine status before his incarnation. The verse states:

hos en morphē theou hyparchōn (ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων): "Who, existing in the form of God."

"Who originating in the pattern of God;" ος is used to change the subject.

The participle hyparchōn (ὑπάρχων) implies continuous existence or being, indicating that Christ was and remained in the divine form before taking on human likeness (Philippians 2:7).

The use of morphē here aligns with the theological claim that Christ existed in the essential nature of God.

4. Paul Did Not Say "Jesus Is God"?

Your argument implies that Paul deliberately avoided saying Jesus is God, but this overlooks both the immediate context and the broader Pauline corpus.

In Philippians 2:6–11, Paul presents a high Christology:

Exalted man is still exalted man.

Christ is said to possess the "form of God" (morphē theou) and does not consider equality with God (to einai isa theō) something to be exploited, which implies he is on par with God in nature.

Actually, on par as an authority in teaching. You need to understand what the equality was in the gospel. A man would not look like the Most High in other qualities.

Christ is exalted and receives "the name that is above every name," and "every knee should bow" to him (Philippians 2:9–10), echoing Isaiah 45:23, a passage about Yahweh.

Yes, his reputation as a man is that good.

Elsewhere, Paul explicitly affirms Christ's divinity:
Colossians 1:15–19: Christ is the "image of the invisible God" and "in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."

Unfortunately, and image cannot be the invisible God.

Titus 2:13: Paul refers to Christ as "our great God and Savior."

τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ a glory of a great one the God, and our savior Jesus the Messiah.

5. Your accusation of Trinitarian Bias

The accusation of bias against translators is unfounded:

Perhaps they like Tyndale's weak interpretative rendering and like to continue into them, but I am just beginning to understand his Old Lutheran/ Old Catholic is still in our bibles. It isn't the protestants who invented ECT.