Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Pierac]

Before Abraham IAM
I and my FATHER are ONE
I, My FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT are ONE

your blindness is ASTOUNDING = same as the jews who cried crucify Him crucify Him

I told you to get permission from your pastor before you posted.... Next time listen!!!

There has been quite a bit of discussion on John 8:58. What happened to this verse as to confuse so many? Let's start in Exodus.

KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint

Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας

Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am'

Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.

Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?

The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.

Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God. So just what was Jesus saying?

But what about the great "I Am him" statement of Jesus? Especially that classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"?

Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am." Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?

Now here is something very obvious that they never told you in church. This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament.

Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am he." In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not “I am is the one speaking to you!”

In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!

What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.

The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jesus, NEVER claimed to be God!

Perhaps you should learn a thing or two from Him (Jesus)! and not vomit what your Pastor teaches...

I told you... You make it easy spanking your theology....

Silly child... How do you not know these things?

 

[face2face]

Absolutely, as the tanak was written by dead in sins jews of the flesh in REBELLION against God

They crucified the Son of God and in no way are they able to SEE the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE

monotheistic atheism always persecutes those who walk in the LIGHT

The two opposing ideas are similar to the concepts of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union. It's no surprise this perspective comes from someone who holds a Trinitarian belief.

 

[David in NJ]

Don't you mean Israelites? Maybe you should up the ante with more of it

When you mention Tanak are you speaking of the OT Scriptures written by the prophets or the oral tradition handed down by the elders?

i was referring to the oral tradition = Mark 7:13

Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

 

[David in NJ]

Actually, El has been replaced with Elohim in the Tanak, as well as Aramaic syntax with Rabbinic syntax.

When you mention Tanak are you speaking of the OT Scriptures written by the prophets or the oral tradition handed down by the elders?

i was referring to the oral tradition = Mark 7:13

Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

 

[David in NJ]

You Jew Hating... Sissy of a Man

What part of Jesus being a Jew do you not understand!!!

Your standing on the streets/forum supporting Hamas... You idiot!!!

SEE Post 3,366 AND 3,369

 

[face2face]

Absolutely, as the oral tradition was written by dead in sins jews of the flesh in REBELLION against God

They crucified the Son of God and in no way are they able to SEE the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE

monotheistic atheism always persecutes those who walk in the LIGHT

Hmmmm I just saw something change in that post David?

Must had a change of heart!

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

Hmmmm I just saw something change in that post David?

Must had a change of heart!

F2F

@MonoBiblical

Was on two different forums dealing with three different individuals while at the same time assisting my wife with her paper work,
at 10pm when i am spent.

Anyone who thinks i am against the Jewish people need to come over and meet my Jewish wife and father in law as well as the local rabbis who i am friends with AND of course, my other Jewish friends that i see almost daily.

THREE points of emphasis:
a.) Distinction between the Tanak which is the Scriptures and the Oral Tradition = Mark 7:13
b.) My son served in Israeli Military, in Israel = at my behest, when he asked me which military to join, US or Israel
c.) Ephesians 2:11-22

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[David in NJ]

The nation Israel and the Jewish people have every right to defend themselves against those who are bombing them,
kidnapping, raping and murdering them.

October 7th was HORRIFIC and my family lifted UP Israel in prayer IMMEDIATELY and have not stopped.

Are you praying for the salvation of the Jewish people AND of those all around her???

My family is.

"And this GOSPEL will be preached in all the world as a witness to ALL nations, and then the end will come" - Matthew 24:14

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
Revelation 7:9

 

[Ritajanice]

I have to say that I am always impressed by your sincerity Ritajanice.....but being “one in spirit” is exactly what the Scripture means. What is our spirit though? How would we define it? Isn’t it the motivating force within our hearts that steers us towards God? It is the difference between some one who is not spiritual reading the words of the Bible and not responding to them at all.....the words do not ‘resonate’ as they do for believers. But then we have to ask is satan capable of taking that spirituality in us and redirecting it to something at appears to be correct, but is nothing but a clever counterfeit? Or at least it was in the beginning where false doctrines were introduced gradually until they were accepted by the masses.

Comparing those fully accepted doctrines now with what was held to be truth by the first Christians, we see an appalling chasm between original Christianity and what now passes for it in a church system so divided that God would be hard pressed to find the truth in any of them. This is why Jesus says at the judgment “I never knew you”.....he has never recognised those who claim him as their “Lord”. (Matt 7:21-23)

He did indeed grow in the womb of the wonderful woman he chose to give birth to his son and to raise him in a devout Jewish household. Joseph too was the perfect earthly father of God’s son, taking his family for the prescribed yearly festivals in Jerusalem and teaching all his children the value of staying close to their God and obeying his laws.

Even though Jesus was divinely produced, he was still 100% mortal human....and free willed, as the exact equivalent of Adam, for whose sinful course he willingly came and offered his life in atonement for what Adam had done to all his children. In order to give his life, he had to remain sinless, proving that Adam too could have remained sinless if he had chosen to be obedient to his God instead of choosing to side with his disobedient wife. The devil tried to derail his course by tempting him to sin, but he staunchly refused.

We can all be used by God to impart knowledge and understanding of God’s word. But it requires careful study to prove the truth of what it really teaches, not being sidetracked by the accepted doctrines of a counterfeit church system, hopelessly divided with people leaving in droves, and wondering why God is not blessing them. (1 Cor 1:10)

History testifies against Christendom as being divided over doctrinal issues, divided in politics, divided over domestic and international issues, divided in claims of capital and labor, divided over fascism, divided over communism, divided over democracy, divided in war and divided in peace.
As Jesus said.... “every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand”. (Matt 12:25)

There can only be one truth....so who is teaching it? Who are living the truth rather than just talking about it?

The crash that is coming will be monumental! We cannot be a part of what God calls “Babylon the great”. We are to remove ourselves from her, before God destroys her. (Rev 18:4-4)

Always appreciate your well written out summaries Aunty, will give this a good read later today, as I have a busy day ahead, I want to take my time reading your post as you always explain everything so well...back later, with any questions that I may have...enjoy your day.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You and i are not living in the pre-flood era of earth.

Seriously...this is all you have to say when the truth is presented in such plain terms?
Where is your defence? You simply have the same rehashed verses that have been explained to you countless times....and yet you still cling to Catholic doctrine like your life depends on it....you didn’t run very far did you?

Genesis ch 5 is the history of man in a genealogy list showing the ages of men in the pre-flood era.
Why did they live such long lives in the beginning? Do you have any idea? Why did the lifespan of humans diminish, as we got further away from our original perfection?...and especially after the deluge....?

Abraham lived only 175 years. (Gen 25:7) Today, much as it was in the time of Moses, people living under favorable conditions may reach seventy or eighty years of age or even more. My own mother lived to 98.
Moses wrote: “In themselves the days of our years are seventy years; and if because of special mightiness they are eighty years, yet their insistence is on trouble and hurtful things; for it must quickly pass by, and away we fly.” (Psalm 90:10)

Those of us who have now grown old, wonder where our youth has gone and lament that the time we have left is now reduced. We have all experienced our share of “trouble and hurtful things” in this life.....but we know that all will be restored back to God’s original purpose for us......including our youth. We are not meant to grow old and die....it is so foreign to our psyche to look in the mirror when the young person inside is looking at an old person on the outside....it is very confronting.

Some believe that the human race was placed here on earth as a training ground for heaven.......was it?
Or were human beings created to live on earth forever?
What did God say after Adam partook of the TKGE at his wife’s urging?

Genesis 3:22-24...
God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23  With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24  So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

Why did God prevent access to “the tree of life” after Adam sinned? The cherubs posted as guardians would have remained there until the flood changed the landscape completely. If the tree of life survived the flood, then no one would be able to identify it or find it. The “trees of life” are not mentioned again until Revelation....and they are for “the curing of the nations”. (Rev 22:1-2) Why? Because “the meek will inherit the earth”.....and true to his first purpose, God will restore his original plan and restore his earth to what he intended it to be. (Isa 55:11)

God created mankind to live forever on earth in paradise conditions.....we humans are naturally drawn to paradisaic places, but in our imperfection, we end up turning them into overcrowded tourist resorts making ridiculous amounts of money out of this innate human need. There was an old song that said...”you pave paradise and put up a parking lot” and then......”don’t it always seem to go, that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone...”......and before long it’s not paradise anymore. Greedy humans have ruined it.

God’s original purpose will go ahead......but only those who truly “know” the God that Jesus taught about will enter the enter the Kingdom as “kings and priests” in its administration. (Rev 20:6) Those not chosen for a role in heaven will be blessed to be citizens over whom the king and his chosen assistants will rule.
The very best government that mankind has ever had!

Paradise was lost.....and paradise will be restored. It is God’s will......so nothing can stop it. (Rev 21:2-4)
Will we be there.....? That is the question....

 

[TheHC]

@Aunty Jane

I am curious how you see -

Filipp 2:5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus,
Filipp 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
Filipp 2:7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

There is a whole list of Bible translations of this verse - Philippians 2:6 - Bible Gateway

But the JW states -
Keep this mental attitude* in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus,+ 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form,+ gave no consideration to a seizure,* namely, that he should be equal to God.+ 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form+ and came to be in the likeness of men.

That's really something else, or?

Hello, my cousin…

Are you aware of the Greek words used here, especially the one you’re highlighting for “robbery”?

First, let’s take the phrase “in the form of”… morphē, in Greek. It means just that: “form” or “shape”.
What “shape”, or “form”, does God have? He is spirit. Angels have that same form: they too are spirit.
A few translations, however, say “Though he was God…”! They just remove the entire phrase “in the form of”! Why? Because they have a trinitarian agenda. Altering God’s Word, to favor a bias!
If Paul had wanted to say “he [Jesus] was God”, that would’ve been a great opportunity! But Paul didn’t say that.



Now, please, let’s examine the Greek word highlighted for “robbery”… Some say “exploit”.
But most translations - at least, as far as the ones I’ve read, quite a few - most render it “grasped”.

The Greek word here, is “harpagmon”, and it always means “to reach (for),” “to grasp (at)”. And it indicates ‘with violence or force’. That’s why the word “robbery” is used. Sometimes harpagmon is rendered “seized”.

But “harpagmon” never ever means “hold onto”, or “keep”.

It is always about “grasping” for something not in possession!

And this agrees with the context: afterward “God exalted him”. You can’t exalt God higher than he already was.

 

[Taken]

@Pierac


@David in NJ …Hi Dave…
on a personal note…Hope you were able to see and enjoy Trump’s inauguration; yeah!!! Finally!!! And all prepared for the weather.

Spiritually;
I think attempting to have a spiritual conversation with the ridiculously immature results in triggering their anger button to rant off the chart.
While the initial reaction is a laugh at bad comedy…the bigger picture is sad pathetic and sad….as Scripture speaks of mens foolishness.

Blessings to you and yours (especially Dan)…

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[face2face]

You can’t exalt God higher than he already was.

HC, this is also why the concept of a preexistent Christ /Angel is challenging – He was made lower than the angels, yet he now has a name superior to theirs.

The book of Hebrews clearly states that no angel has ever been called "THE Son of God": "For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten you'? Or again, 'I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?'" (Hebrews 1:5).

The Son of God is shown to be superior to the angels: "Having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4).

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yep, which translation is correct, that's the question.

Which one to trust

The one that agrees with the entirety of Scripture.....did Jesus want equality with God, or did he act as a “servant” of his God and Father? (Acts 4:27)

Let's make our discussion easier and limit ourselves to the question, Jesus was a divine Being, preexisted with the Father before creation, participated with the Father in creation, descended from heaven, became flesh and then continue with v7 on which we don't have a disagreement - but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death--death even of a cross,

Are we still in agreement?

We still have to ascertain why God needed to be obedient to God if the trinity is correct....

The Father is more than the Son.

That cannot be if the trinity is true. All three “persons” of the trinity are equally “God”.
The Bible says that Jesus is subject to the Father which doesn’t make him equal. (1 Cor 11:3)

I have read it and you are correct, as I said above and what we learned from Christ Himself - my Father is greater than I. [John 14:28]

If the Father is greater than the son, which many trinitarians insist that he was 100% human whilst being 100% God.....have never taken a maths class....no scripture presents the son on an equal level with the Father....not a one.

As for your question it's simple, the Father and the Son are 2 distinct Personalities and how it is with predestination and also with the Lamb slain before the creation of the world things still have to be played out. I don't think Christ could fail, nevertheless Christ still had to proof before : God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name”

Now, I need to pick you up here..... Regarding Jesus’ sacrifice of himself as a lamb, the apostle Peter wrote: “You were delivered . . . with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s. True, he was foreknown before the founding [Greek, katabolé] of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for the sake of you.” (1 Peter 1:18-20)

The “founding of the world” was not the creation of the planet, but the founding of the world of sinful mankind....this is logical because Jesus was not required to sacrifice his life until mankind was overtaken by sin. As a free willed human Adam made choices that threw all of his children under the bus....inheriting sin and death as a consequence of his decision to partake of the fruit that was denied to humankind.

If Adam had chosen differently, then a different outcome would have resulted. God did not plan the fall, but had contingencies ready for all eventualities. He did not foreordain individuals, but classes of people who would be employed to fulfill his purpose. Even ones of the elect can fall away because they have free will.

That “the founding of the world” (kósmos) must be reckoned as having taken place after man’s fall, Jesus indicated when he said to the Jewish leaders who were bent on killing him......
“You are witnesses of the deeds of your forefathers and yet you give consent to them, because these killed the prophets but you are building their tombs. On this account the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send forth to them prophets and apostles, and they will kill and persecute some of them, so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be required from this generation, from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah, who was slain between the altar and the house [temple].’” (Luke 11:48-51)

Jesus there shows that the spilling of the blood of all the prophets from “the founding of the world” began with Abel. Consequently Abel lived at the “founding of the world”.....being the second child of Adam and his wife, sin was already at work when Cain killed his brother in a premeditated act of murder.

I don't believe that's true, I believe Jesus was a divine Being, preexisted with the Father before creation, participated with the Father in creation, descended from heaven, became flesh to save us, the Lamb slain. In that way I read my Bible and I don't have to fight against a long list of passages that hint to Christ oneness with the Father before creation and during His stay on Earth, the most clear one - I and the Father are one.

How are the Father and son “one”......and where is the supposedly equal third party?
What did Jesus mean when he said in John 17:20-22...
“ I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21  so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22  I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

This is unity of thought and purpose....otherwise the disciples are all “God” as well.

If you are going to promote a trinity, can you have your own personal version of it? Is there such a thing as a binity?
If Jesus is God, what is the Holy Spirit?.....who barely rates a mention as part of the threesome.

Correct, with the exception of parts in John 17.

What parts? I am open to discussing them...

Pot Kettle ?

Neither.....I am an avid Bible student who is a stickler for detail.....they all have to fit the big picture....
Do you have one? Why are we here? What was God’s intention for creating human beings in his image and likeness and putting them on this planet in the first place?

Alright, thank you, among all utilitarians here you are the best defender of what you have chosen to believe.

I think that was meant to be Unitarian but Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Unitarians.....we do not support an “all are saved” theology because Jesus as our apppinted judge, will send the “goats” to “the lake of fire”, which we believe is a symbol for everlasting death. We do not believe in life after death, with an immortal soul flitting off to some other destination, nor do we subscribe to a hell of eternal conscious torment.
That is not the God we worship.

 

[face2face]

I think that was meant to be Unitarian but Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Unitarians.....we do not support an “all are saved” theology because Jesus as our apppinted judge, will send the “goats” to “the lake of fire”, which we believe is a symbol for everlasting death. We do not believe in life after death, with an immortal soul flitting off to some other destination, nor do we subscribe to a hell of eternal conscious torment.
That is not the God we worship.

I'm not sure I understand your point here, Jane. Unitarians believe in a single all-powerful God (Deity) and certainly do not support Universalism.

Maybe you are thinking of Universalism because JW's are Unitarians.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@ProDeo Utilitarians are individuals who follow the philosophy of Utilitarianism, a moral theory primarily associated with philosophers like Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill

Clearly you meant Unitarian.

F2F

 

[face2face]

The boredom in this thread has driven me to create my own Trinitarian apologist, whom I will name Mr. Trinny.

Mr Trinny states:

"First of all, the hypostatic union gave the world an impeccable Person. This predicates of Christ, mark you, not only anamartesia ("sinlessness"), but impeccability (inability to sin). It is not just a matter of posse non peccare ("able not to sin"), but of non posse peccare ("unable to sin"). It is not enough to say Christ did not sin; it must be declared unequivocably that He could not sin. To entertain for a moment the thought that Christ could sin, would involve issues that call for a radical revolution in our conception of the Godhead.

Mr Trinny also goes by the name of Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1993), 394.

Now Mr Trinny makes two clear observations which all need to absorb!

1. The Trinity lives or dies on the knowledge of Jesus being able to sin or unable to sin.

So, if you are a Trinitarian who believes Jesus had the potential to sin, you are not a Trinitarian!

2. Having proved in this forum with the help of @Wrangler @APAK we can 100% confirm the Lord Jesus Christ was not only was raised up out of sin's flesh, he was tempted in every single way and found to be sinless in that flesh nature. This means for the Trinitarians in this forum MUST go through a radical revolution in our conception of the Godhead.

Now Mr Trinny has a lot more to say on this subject of "able to sin", or "unable to sin", but for now we need to process his claims and reveiw those well proven facts this thread has wonderfully provided.

I'm sure you would like to join in with me in welcoming Mr Trinny to the forum?

F2F

So Mr Trinny is back again wanting to settle this matter of Christ being able to sin or not!

"To say that Christ could not sin is not tantamount to maintaining He could not be tempted."

So here is what a full blooded Trinitarian must believe if they are to maintain their stand.

The above statement suggest that Christ’s ability to be tempted is not the same as his ability to sin. He could be tempted (i.e., he experienced temptation as part of his humanity), but his divine nature (some-how) made it impossible for him to sin.

So lets look at a verse to test this theory!

Luke 22:28, Jesus says to His disciples, “You are those who have stayed with me in my trials.”

The Greek word for "trials" is "πειρασμός" (peirasmos), which can be translated as "temptation", "trial", or "testing".

Why would Christ express appreciation for his disciples staying with him during his trials, temptations, and testing, all of which he himself endured?

Was this expression of appreciation insincere, considering Jesus knew he could never sin, and therefore, there was no real trial?

What say you @Johann (who has been rather quiet of late?)
What say you @Wrangler and @APAK
Am I still on ignore @ProDeo ?
And what are you deep thoughts on the matter @David in NJ
Does @Aunty Jane have a well thought out position on whether Jesus could sin, or not?
Have a go @TheHC

As we have stated above - the entire Doctrine of the Trinity with all its complex structure either rises or falls on this one understanding.

Just to clarify once again how serious this issue is and how it has led to the development of this unsupported doctrine:

Mr Trinny believes:

"the hereditary sin nature that Mary had received mediately from Adam through her progenitors was not transmitted to Christ because of his miraculous conception through the operation of the Holy Spirit of God"

In other words, the Trinitarian God "tweaked" Christ's nature to appear human on the outside, while the miraculous and mysterious was happening within

Looking forward to all your response's

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler @APAK, entertain a thought with me for a moment. If, when the Master returns, it becomes clear that he is not God or the Deity, what do you think the ramifications would be on earth?

Here is what my son wrote concerning this last post! "Kinda shows you how weak and brittle their trinitarian doctrine is that it could be overturned by a simple truth"

Imagine the ministers, pastors, and all those who have invested thousands of hours in theological study, only to have it all come to nothing in an instant!

The anger that would manifest from such an event would be tremendous and the dissapointement that the truth was there all along and they choose to ignore it.

So this is the reaction of the Jews after a national outpouring when they see the marks on his hands!

Zechariah 12:10 (ESV): "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."

And then

Zechariah 8:23 (ESV): "Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"

His return is going to be EPIC/TRAGIC on so many levels!

F2F

 

[MonoBiblical]

i was referring to the oral tradition = Mark 7:13

What oral tradition? It didn't exist then.

Anyone who thinks i am against the Jewish people need to come over and meet my Jewish wife and father in law as well as the local rabbis who i am friends with AND of course, my other Jewish friends that i see almost daily.

And yet you ignore them about idolatry.

 

[Wrangler]

Why would Christ express appreciation for his disciples staying with him during his trials, temptations, and testing, all of which he himself endured?

Was this expression of appreciation insincere, considering Jesus knew he could never sin, and therefore, there was no real trial?

What say you @Wrangler

Well Mr Trinny, in Trinityland everything bends, stretches or compresses to support the IDOL like in a Dr. Seus book. There's always reliance on dualism and mysticism when we otherwise cannot explain things. Saying things like, well, that was his human half. That's supposed to answer such questions.

If you think about it too much, it will give you a headache. Your carnal mind and all that. Don't you know God is bigger than logic? Say stuff like that until the one who rejects the IDOL goes away. You can always threaten with eternal damnation too for "rejecting Jesus."