Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

Luk 22:39 And he came out and went, as was his custom, to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples followed him.
Luk 22:40 And when he came to the place, he said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.”
Luk 22:41 And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,
Luk 22:42 saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”
Luk 22:43 And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Luk 22:45 And when he rose from prayer, he came to the disciples and found them sleeping for sorrow,
Luk 22:46 and he said to them, “Why are you sleeping? Rise and pray that you may not enter into temptation.”

-----

So, what's your point?

Thank you, brother. Context is imperative.

J.

 

[ProDeo]

Yes, Christ enter the Holy place with his blood for his God, his Father, and received himself permanent redemption, for all the chosen...amen

So Jesus as ONLY HUMAN had to earn his redemption ????

 

[Johann]

So Jesus as ONLY HUMAN had to earn his redemption ????

 

[ProDeo]

John 17:5 says that the Glory preexisted.

Where ?

John - 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I [Jesus] had with you [Father] before the world existed.

 

[face2face]

Where ?

John - 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I [Jesus] had with you [Father] before the world existed.

You would need a mind of faith to interpret that verse! Jesus was exemplary in his faith and understanding the outworking of Gods Glory.

Whats odd is once again you remove yourself from the same Glory.

F2F

 

[face2face]

So Jesus as ONLY HUMAN had to earn his redemption ????

Needed faith just as you do! Thanks for the question, it's more than struggling Johann managed last night! He was floundering badly.

 

[Johann]

You would need a mind of faith to interpret that verse! Jesus was exemplary in his faith and understanding the outworking of Gods Glory.

Whats odd is once again you remove yourself from the same Glory.

F2F

Every time you open your mouth you embarrass yourself.

the glory. %Jhn_17:22, *Jhn_1:14; Jhn_18:6, Psa_73:24, **Isa_42:8; **Isa_48:11, *Mat_17:2, Luk_13:32, **1Co_2:8; *1Co_12:3, *Php_2:6-8, *Col_2:9, Heb_1:3, **2Pe_1:16; **2Pe_1:17, 1Jn_1:1-3.

Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.
Joh 17:22 'And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;
Joh 17:23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.
Joh 17:24 'Father, those whom Thou hast given to me, I will that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory that Thou didst give to me, because Thou didst love me before the foundation of the world.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
Col 2:6 as, then, ye did receive Christ Jesus the Lord, in him walk ye,
Col 2:7 being rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith, as ye were taught—abounding in it in thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ,
Col 2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,
Col 2:10 and ye are in him made full, who is the head of all principality and authority,

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (hoti en autōi katoikei pān to plērōma tēs theotētos sōmatikōs).

In this sentence, given as the reason (hoti, because) for the preceding claim for Christ as the measure of human knowledge Paul states the heart of his message about the Person of Christ. There dwells (at home) in Christ not one or more aspects of the Godhead (the very essence of God, from theos, deitas) and not to be confused with theiotes in Rom_1:20 (from theios, the quality of God, divinitas), here only in N.T. as theiotēs only in Rom_1:20.

The distinction is observed in Lucian and Plutarch. Theiotēs occurs in the papyri and inscriptions. Paul here asserts that “all the plērōma of the Godhead,” not just certain aspects, dwells in Christ and in bodily form (sōmatikōs, late and rare adverb, in Plutarch, inscription, here only in N.T.), dwells now in Christ in his glorified humanity (Php_2:9-11), “the body of his glory” (tōi sōmati tēs doxēs).

The fulness of the God-head was in Christ before the Incarnation (Jhn_1:1, Jhn_1:18; Php_2:6), during the Incarnation (Jhn_1:14, Jhn_1:18; 1Jn_1:1-3). It was the Son of God who came in the likeness of men (Php_2:7). Paul here disposes of the Docetic theory that Jesus had no human body as well as the Cerinthian separation between the man Jesus and the aeon Christ. He asserts plainly the deity and the humanity of Jesus Christ in corporeal form.
RWP.

J.

 

[Johann]

Needed faith just as you do! Thanks for the question, it's more than struggling Johann managed last night! He was floundering badly.

Error.

Jesus' Divine Nature:

As God incarnate, Jesus possesses full knowledge and authority (John 1:1-14, Colossians 2:9). Faith involves believing in what is unseen or hoped for (Hebrews 11:1), but Jesus, in His divine nature, fully knew the Father and His will.

Jesus' Human Nature:

In His humanity, Jesus demonstrated perfect trust and obedience to the Father:

John 5:19: "The Son can do nothing of Himself but only what He sees the Father doing."

Matthew 26:39: In Gethsemane, Jesus prayed, "Not as I will, but as You will," exemplifying trust in the Father's plan.

Faith as Trust and Obedience:

Jesus' actions and prayers reflect trust in the Father, but this trust is not born out of uncertainty or doubt, as is often the case with human faith. Instead, it is the perfect alignment of His human will with the Father's divine will.

Hebrews 12:2:

Jesus is described as "the author and finisher of faith" (τῆς πίστεως, tēs pisteōs).

This does not suggest He needed faith but rather that He is the source and perfect example of faith, showing what it means to live in perfect harmony with God’s will.

While Jesus exhibited perfect trust and obedience to the Father in His human nature, Scripture does not depict Him as "needing faith" in the sense of believing in what He did not fully know.

Instead, He is the ultimate example of faithfulness and trust in God’s will.

Next.

J.

 

[Runningman]

Trinitarians often accuse Unitarians of starting with the assumption that God is only one person, but this is not the case. What is assumed is that the Bible is a coherent literary work, consistent in its language. This means that if language is used to define God as a single person, it should be understood in that way, just as the language would be interpreted for any other individual. This is not to deny that anthropomorphic language may be used to describe God, but outside of this specific context, there is consistency. To suggest otherwise creates a "God language" where the meaning of words is altered, allowing for an arbitrary application that can make the text mean anything—even the opposite of what is stated. Instead of seeking a "God language," the better approach is to accept that the Bible authors used language in a way that allowed readers to understand the text clearly. Trinitarians often accuse others of assuming their doctrine, but the truth is, Trinitarians impose their theology onto the text, overriding a consistent reading of it. Barron 2009

Unitarianism (which I also believe) is considered to be based more on conventional logic than on theological reasoning. For example, a Son is born and therefore did not exist eternally. On the other hand, in a theological or philosophical argument, the Son may have always existed, which defies conventional reasoning.

Yes, there can be a Trinity in theological and philosophical arguments, but there can also be many other possibilities. Theology and philosophy can each have their own flavor of logic, so I will not call Trinitarians illogical. Thus, Trinitarianism does need to redefine words and concepts to mean things they normally do not. Another example is John 17:1-3, which states that the Father is the only true God. That's the Unitarian's ace card, but in Trinitarian logic, the Father being the only true God cannot co-exist with the textbook definition of the word "only" or else Trinitarianism fails.

That's why I find Unitarianism more intuitive, and it makes perfect sense to me. I struggled immensely under the Trinitarian view to explain why I believed what I did, and no offense to anyone here, but I felt like I had egg on my face all the time. I was shy to witness and crumpled up like a paper bag when questioned about it in debates. For me, it was a wake-up call that I was on the wrong path, and embracing Unitarianism was definitely the best decision I ever made regarding my faith.

 

[face2face]

Every time you open your mouth you embarrass yourself.

the glory. %Jhn_17:22, *Jhn_1:14; Jhn_18:6, Psa_73:24, **Isa_42:8; **Isa_48:11, *Mat_17:2, Luk_13:32, **1Co_2:8; *1Co_12:3, *Php_2:6-8, *Col_2:9, Heb_1:3, **2Pe_1:16; **2Pe_1:17, 1Jn_1:1-3.

Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.
Joh 17:22 'And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;
Joh 17:23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.
Joh 17:24 'Father, those whom Thou hast given to me, I will that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory that Thou didst give to me, because Thou didst love me before the foundation of the world.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
Col 2:6 as, then, ye did receive Christ Jesus the Lord, in him walk ye,
Col 2:7 being rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith, as ye were taught—abounding in it in thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ,
Col 2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,
Col 2:10 and ye are in him made full, who is the head of all principality and authority,

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (hoti en autōi katoikei pān to plērōma tēs theotētos sōmatikōs).

In this sentence, given as the reason (hoti, because) for the preceding claim for Christ as the measure of human knowledge Paul states the heart of his message about the Person of Christ. There dwells (at home) in Christ not one or more aspects of the Godhead (the very essence of God, from theos, deitas) and not to be confused with theiotes in Rom_1:20 (from theios, the quality of God, divinitas), here only in N.T. as theiotēs only in Rom_1:20.

The distinction is observed in Lucian and Plutarch. Theiotēs occurs in the papyri and inscriptions. Paul here asserts that “all the plērōma of the Godhead,” not just certain aspects, dwells in Christ and in bodily form (sōmatikōs, late and rare adverb, in Plutarch, inscription, here only in N.T.), dwells now in Christ in his glorified humanity (Php_2:9-11), “the body of his glory” (tōi sōmati tēs doxēs).

The fulness of the God-head was in Christ before the Incarnation (Jhn_1:1, Jhn_1:18; Php_2:6), during the Incarnation (Jhn_1:14, Jhn_1:18; 1Jn_1:1-3). It was the Son of God who came in the likeness of men (Php_2:7). Paul here disposes of the Docetic theory that Jesus had no human body as well as the Cerinthian separation between the man Jesus and the aeon Christ. He asserts plainly the deity and the humanity of Jesus Christ in corporeal form.
RWP.

J.

True Johann, Jesus was given the Fullness and the Glory, after his death and at his resurrection as the Scripture teaches.

 

[face2face]

Error.

Jesus' Divine Nature:

As God incarnate, Jesus possesses full knowledge and authority (John 1:1-14, Colossians 2:9). Faith involves believing in what is unseen or hoped for (Hebrews 11:1), but Jesus, in His divine nature, fully knew the Father and His will.

Jesus' Human Nature:

In His humanity, Jesus demonstrated perfect trust and obedience to the Father:

John 5:19: "The Son can do nothing of Himself but only what He sees the Father doing."

Matthew 26:39: In Gethsemane, Jesus prayed, "Not as I will, but as You will," exemplifying trust in the Father's plan.

Faith as Trust and Obedience:

Jesus' actions and prayers reflect trust in the Father, but this trust is not born out of uncertainty or doubt, as is often the case with human faith. Instead, it is the perfect alignment of His human will with the Father's divine will.

Hebrews 12:2:

Jesus is described as "the author and finisher of faith" (τῆς πίστεως, tēs pisteōs).

This does not suggest He needed faith but rather that He is the source and perfect example of faith, showing what it means to live in perfect harmony with God’s will.

While Jesus exhibited perfect trust and obedience to the Father in His human nature, Scripture does not depict Him as "needing faith" in the sense of believing in what He did not fully know.

Instead, He is the ultimate example of faithfulness and trust in God’s will.

Next.

J.

You have moved well away from the beautiful verses shown to you last night.

Once you grasp that the head and the body are inseparable — redeemed, firstborn, and firstfruits — all that's left after its rejection is to repeat man-made dogma.

This happens when Scripture is teaching something "new" and in place of learning they "dig in" like the Jews in John 8 who could not hear the Word and not for want of trying on the Lords part.

1. Now may the God of peace who by the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ Heb 13:20.

2. he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Heb 9:12

Christ himself is shown to benefit from His own death.

This idea of Jesus being redeemed from death by his own blood is expressed more literally in Philippians 2:8:

"He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him."

Johann fail's to account for the fact that Christ benefited from his own death and was exalted as a result of his submission.

If Christ does not have eternal redemption by the everlasting covenant then he cannot be the firstborn from the dead!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Unitarianism (which I also believe) is considered to be based more on conventional logic than on theological reasoning. For example, a Son is born and therefore did not exist eternally. On the other hand, in a theological or philosophical argument, the Son may have always existed, which defies conventional reasoning.

Yes, there can be a Trinity in theological and philosophical arguments, but there can also be many other possibilities. Theology and philosophy can each have their own flavor of logic, so I will not call Trinitarians illogical. Thus, Trinitarianism does need to redefine words and concepts to mean things they normally do not. Another example is John 17:1-3, which states that the Father is the only true God. That's the Unitarian's ace card, but in Trinitarian logic, the Father being the only true God cannot co-exist with the textbook definition of the word "only" or else Trinitarianism fails.

That's why I find Unitarianism more intuitive, and it makes perfect sense to me. I struggled immensely under the Trinitarian view to explain why I believed what I did, and no offense to anyone here, but I felt like I had egg on my face all the time. I was shy to witness and crumpled up like a paper bag when questioned about it in debates. For me, it was a wake-up call that I was on the wrong path, and embracing Unitarianism was definitely the best decision I ever made regarding my faith.

I perceive a revival in these last days of proclaiming the true Gospel as taught by the Apostles. Seeing the posts from individuals like Wrangler, Apak, and yourself fills me with great joy that those who desire the Name are preparing themselves for the Masters coming.

Truth be known, I'm more interested in strengthening those things which remain (Rev 3:2) than I am of convincing hardcore 3n1 believers. We live is the last days "For who dares make light of small beginnings?" Zec 4:10.

Our faith is intuitive because it is grounded in real evidence and can be truly understood. The "dead ends" in Trinitarian doctrine are numerous, and as we are witnessing, those who adhere to it will come to realize that it cannot provide the salvation they believe it does.

May our God continue to strengthen you in the sure knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Where ?

John - 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I [Jesus] had with you [Father] before the world existed.

Because Marks & Johann like your inference let me ask you a question.

Whom he did foreknow." (Rom. 8:29).

because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Ro 8:29.

Do you believe you will share in the same Glory Pro?

 

[Pierac]

Take your religious blinders off and READ CAREFULLY

the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
And one cried to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”

only the Lord God has seen God the FATHER

What does the missionary book of the early church say about Jesus and Lord? One could say it would be a safe place to see how the apostolic Christians understood it. A good place to turn. The book of Acts present us with a clear and unified testimony of the apostles’ witness. It is significant that nowhere in Acts do the apostles say that believing that Jesus is Jehovah, the Lord God, is an essential requirement for salvation. Peter, who had been given the keys to the kingdom, called Jesus "a man accredited to you by God" (Acts 2:22).

The Bible states that after his sermon on the day of Pentecost about 3000 persons were saved. If Peter thought it was essential to believe that Jesus was Almighty God he did not say so in his first sermon. If it is necessary to believe in the Trinity to enter the Kingdom of God then Peter forgot to mention this essential fact on this definitive day. This proves is not necessary to believe that Christ is God in order to be saved. When preaching to these Jews Peter presents a Messiah who is the descendent of King David (v.30). He is one who would have rotted and decayed in the grave like any other man had not God raised him up again (v.24-32). Because God authenticated "this Jesus" by resurrecting him (thus reversing the national verdict accusing him of blasphemy, that is, claiming to be God's Messiah), Jesus is now "exulted to the right hand of God" (v. 33). God has thus sealed "this Jesus whom you crucified" (v.36) and declared him as "Lord and Messiah" to the nation of Israel and "for all who are far off" (the Gentiles as well, v.39). The proof of his Messiahship is that the Holy Spirit has been poured out. Every Jew believed that the dawning of the new Messianic age would usher in a mighty outpouring of God Spirit. This Jewish audience knew that Peter statements meant that the God of their fathers, Jehovah, had raise Jesus in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Christ. Their understanding that "Jesus is Lord" was governed by their understanding of the messianic fulfillment of Psalms 110 as Peter quotes it in Acts here. No unitary monotheistic Jew would have taken Peter statements in Acts 2 to mean that Messiah was Jehovah God. It must be interpreted with Hebrew eyes this same pattern is followed throughout Acts.

In the next chapter, Peter calls Jesus anything but the Lord God. Jesus is called God’s "servant" twice (Acts 3:13, 26); God's "Christ" (v. 18:20); "the Prince of life" (a title nowhere in the Bible applied to God, v.15); the "prophets" whom Moses predicted (v.22,23). In fact, Peter is very careful not to confuse the identity of the Lord God and this Jesus who is the Lord Messiah. Note verse 13 where Peter says, "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers as glorified his servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered up, and disowned in the presence of pilate, when he had decided to release him." This same expression " The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" appears in Exodus 3:15 where God tells Moses to announce to the people that "The LORD [YHWH], they got of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Ex 3:15). The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob equals the LORD (Jehovah). Here in Acts 3:13 it is "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers" who has now "glorified his servant Jesus."

Is Jesus then the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers? Absolutely not! This would make complete nonsense of the text. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No: His servant Jesus. Jesus is not the God of Abraham. Jesus is not Jehovah, the LORD. He is God anointed one, God's servant.

In Acts 10 the same distinction appears again. Peter says, "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how he went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with him" (v. 38). Who anointed Jesus? God anointed Jesus of Nazareth. And the whole purpose of anointing somebody is so they might receive the power and ability to fulfill their commission. If I said, "The king anointed the prince" you would not possibly think the prince was the king. In the same way Jesus is the "Prince of life" (Acts 3:15) whom God anointed. Jesus applied in Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 61 to himself when he read these words in the synagogue after his baptism by John: "The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD [Jehovah] has anointed me" (v.61; Luke 4:16-21). The person who is anointed is not the LORD Jehovah. God does not need to anoint God! Jehovah God anoints Jesus the Messiah. That is what Jesus claims for himself, and what Peter announces time and again.

I do not have the time nor the space here to go through every chapter in the book of Acts to prove this. But I encourage you to do to this for yourself. Take a colored marker, and you may well be surprised at the frequency and consistency in this topic. What was the message that Paul preach after his dramatic conversion experience? That Jesus is Jehovah God? Of course not, for his message was consistent with the rest of the apostles’ testimony: "Immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogue, saying, ‘He is the son of God’" (Acts 19:20). In fact, Paul kept increasing in strength "and confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus site proving that this Jesus is the Messiah" (v.22). To be the son of God is to be the Messiah: Same message! In fact, while you're at it, take the same colored marker and go through the rest of the New Testament. You'll be amazed at the distinction the Scriptures make between God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (You could try 1Cor. 1:3; 8:6; 2 Cor. 1:2; Phil. 1:2; 4:20; 1 Thess. 1:1; 3:13; 2 Thess. 1:2; 2:16; 1 Tim. 1:2; 2Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; Gal. 1:3.)

In other words, there is no person the whole book of Acts or any other New Testament book that requires you to believe that Jesus is the Lord God, Jehovah, in order to enter the Kingdom. In all the books of Acts there is no preaching of the Trinity. Yet in Acts thousands were saved according to the scriptural record. This should be conclusive proof that the Trinity was not part of early apostolic doctrine.

The confession "Jesus is Lord" must be understood in its Jewish environment and historical time frame. Unfortunately, we have seen, through the pressure of culture and politics, the persona of Jesus has been reshaped into one neither he or his apostles would recognize.

You speak and see as a Child

 

[David in NJ]

What does the missionary book of the early church say about Jesus and Lord? One could say it would be a safe place to see how the apostolic Christians understood it. A good place to turn. The book of Acts present us with a clear and unified testimony of the apostles’ witness. It is significant that nowhere in Acts do the apostles say that believing that Jesus is Jehovah, the Lord God, is an essential requirement for salvation. Peter, who had been given the keys to the kingdom, called Jesus "a man accredited to you by God" (Acts 2:22).

The Bible states that after his sermon on the day of Pentecost about 3000 persons were saved. If Peter thought it was essential to believe that Jesus was Almighty God he did not say so in his first sermon. If it is necessary to believe in the Trinity to enter the Kingdom of God then Peter forgot to mention this essential fact on this definitive day. This proves is not necessary to believe that Christ is God in order to be saved. When preaching to these Jews Peter presents a Messiah who is the descendent of King David (v.30). He is one who would have rotted and decayed in the grave like any other man had not God raised him up again (v.24-32). Because God authenticated "this Jesus" by resurrecting him (thus reversing the national verdict accusing him of blasphemy, that is, claiming to be God's Messiah), Jesus is now "exulted to the right hand of God" (v. 33). God has thus sealed "this Jesus whom you crucified" (v.36) and declared him as "Lord and Messiah" to the nation of Israel and "for all who are far off" (the Gentiles as well, v.39). The proof of his Messiahship is that the Holy Spirit has been poured out. Every Jew believed that the dawning of the new Messianic age would usher in a mighty outpouring of God Spirit. This Jewish audience knew that Peter statements meant that the God of their fathers, Jehovah, had raise Jesus in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Christ. Their understanding that "Jesus is Lord" was governed by their understanding of the messianic fulfillment of Psalms 110 as Peter quotes it in Acts here. No unitary monotheistic Jew would have taken Peter statements in Acts 2 to mean that Messiah was Jehovah God. It must be interpreted with Hebrew eyes this same pattern is followed throughout Acts.

In the next chapter, Peter calls Jesus anything but the Lord God. Jesus is called God’s "servant" twice (Acts 3:13, 26); God's "Christ" (v. 18:20); "the Prince of life" (a title nowhere in the Bible applied to God, v.15); the "prophets" whom Moses predicted (v.22,23). In fact, Peter is very careful not to confuse the identity of the Lord God and this Jesus who is the Lord Messiah. Note verse 13 where Peter says, "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers as glorified his servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered up, and disowned in the presence of pilate, when he had decided to release him." This same expression " The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" appears in Exodus 3:15 where God tells Moses to announce to the people that "The LORD [YHWH], they got of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Ex 3:15). The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob equals the LORD (Jehovah). Here in Acts 3:13 it is "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers" who has now "glorified his servant Jesus."

Is Jesus then the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers? Absolutely not! This would make complete nonsense of the text. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No: His servant Jesus. Jesus is not the God of Abraham. Jesus is not Jehovah, the LORD. He is God anointed one, God's servant.

In Acts 10 the same distinction appears again. Peter says, "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how he went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with him" (v. 38). Who anointed Jesus? God anointed Jesus of Nazareth. And the whole purpose of anointing somebody is so they might receive the power and ability to fulfill their commission. If I said, "The king anointed the prince" you would not possibly think the prince was the king. In the same way Jesus is the "Prince of life" (Acts 3:15) whom God anointed. Jesus applied in Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 61 to himself when he read these words in the synagogue after his baptism by John: "The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD [Jehovah] has anointed me" (v.61; Luke 4:16-21). The person who is anointed is not the LORD Jehovah. God does not need to anoint God! Jehovah God anoints Jesus the Messiah. That is what Jesus claims for himself, and what Peter announces time and again.

I do not have the time nor the space here to go through every chapter in the book of Acts to prove this. But I encourage you to do to this for yourself. Take a colored marker, and you may well be surprised at the frequency and consistency in this topic. What was the message that Paul preach after his dramatic conversion experience? That Jesus is Jehovah God? Of course not, for his message was consistent with the rest of the apostles’ testimony: "Immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogue, saying, ‘He is the son of God’" (Acts 19:20). In fact, Paul kept increasing in strength "and confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus site proving that this Jesus is the Messiah" (v.22). To be the son of God is to be the Messiah: Same message! In fact, while you're at it, take the same colored marker and go through the rest of the New Testament. You'll be amazed at the distinction the Scriptures make between God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (You could try 1Cor. 1:3; 8:6; 2 Cor. 1:2; Phil. 1:2; 4:20; 1 Thess. 1:1; 3:13; 2 Thess. 1:2; 2:16; 1 Tim. 1:2; 2Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; Gal. 1:3.)

In other words, there is no person the whole book of Acts or any other New Testament book that requires you to believe that Jesus is the Lord God, Jehovah, in order to enter the Kingdom. In all the books of Acts there is no preaching of the Trinity. Yet in Acts thousands were saved according to the scriptural record. This should be conclusive proof that the Trinity was not part of early apostolic doctrine.

The confession "Jesus is Lord" must be understood in its Jewish environment and historical time frame. Unfortunately, we have seen, through the pressure of culture and politics, the persona of Jesus has been reshaped into one neither he or his apostles would recognize.

You speak and see as a Child

Are you able to communicate in a sentence or two with a scripture or two???

Quality vs quantity

 

[face2face]

Are you able to communicate in a sentence or two with a scripture or two???

Quality vs quantity

The Bible has too many words for you David

 

[David in NJ]

The Bible has too many words for you David

Every word that my FATHER speaks begins as 'Food for thought'.

If you add to His words or take away from them you ruin the Meal whereby it stinks and becomes rancid.

 

[Pierac]

See how this backfires on you-

Can you see your illogical reasoning?


View attachment 56587

This is the central truth of the Gospels about Jesus Christ, that He was fully God and fully human (cf. Joh_1:14; Php_2:6-8; Col_1:14-16; 1Jn_4:1-6).
There is a later Greek manuscript variant in which the relative pronoun hos (MSS א, A, C, F, G; UBS4 gives this an "A" rating [certain]) is changed to theos. This later change may have occurred

1. with the confusion over OC (the abbreviations in uncial Greek for who) read as H C (the abbreviation in uncial Greek for "God") or

2. as a purposeful theological change by later scribes (cf. MSS אc, Ac, C2, and D2) wanting to make the text more specific against the adoptionist heresies (cf. Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, pp. 77-78)

Plain Scripture and you stumble. Why? Selective reading of the text.

J.

Spirit or Flesh?
Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree: "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy. For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly not God but a human being. The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.

In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

INCARNA'TION, n. The act of clothing with flesh.

1. The act of assuming flesh, or of taking a human body and the nature of man; as the incarnation of the Son of God.

Can God take on the nature of man? What did Paul say?
Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

However, we know that Jesus was begotten. Yet, not eternally begotten! Which is un-scriptural!

BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get. Procreated; generated.

Now let's look at John 1:10 regarding, the world was made through Him (Jesus).

Joh 1:10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through(dia) Him, and the world knew Him not." 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."

To be a Christian means you know that our Lord Jesus is the diameter, the purpose of the universe. His kingdom is coming! This is God's purpose and it will not be frustrated.

Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages. God planned to complete His purpose for all creation through the agency of his son Jesus. The preposition that is used in relation to Jesus and the world, or the ages, is “through” (Greek dia from which you will see comes our English word diameter).

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

 

[face2face]

Every word that my FATHER speaks begins as 'Food for thought'.

If you add to His words or take away from them you ruin the Meal whereby it stinks and becomes rancid.

Best to unfollow Johann and Pro then

 

[ProDeo]

You would need a mind of faith to interpret that verse! Jesus was exemplary in his faith and understanding the outworking of Gods Glory.

Whats odd is once again you remove yourself from the same Glory.

F2F

John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I [Jesus] had with you [Father] before the world existed.

This verse is about the glory between God the Father and God the Son and the glory between Them goes back before creation, before the Father (Elohim) said - Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

In the meantime I counted quite some passages you (and others) are allergic and respond agitated and John 17:5 is just another one. In my world -- simply believing what Scripture literally states -- everything fits when it is about God the Son. Jesus is many things, it's and / and without exceptions and I don't have to understand the divinity of Jesus and the relationship He had with the Father before He came from heaven and incarnated in the flesh. Insisting to understand God is a receipt for unbelief.