Exploring Trinitarian Logic

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
919
235
43
62
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks for the spanking :Broadly:

Question for you, in theory, could Christ have failed in His mission, remain sinless, bear us, do everything the Father wanted from Him, all the way to a horrible death, putting the full weight of more than 100 billion sinners on His shoulders and take away the trillions of sins?

If you think the answer is "yes", then God is a gambler.

Answering my own question, "No, of course Christ could not fail", God is no gambler, He can't fail.
Luk 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Of course not... God would not allow his Christ or His chosen one... to fail!!! What person would want to go to the cross????

Mat 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

Jesus submitted to his God!

Mat 26:42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."

Now you know....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
919
235
43
62
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Except that is says it was God. I believe what is written.

Much love!
So your saying John the Apostle was a liar? and the truth is not in him?

1Jo 4:12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

Now we know how your theology works... only if it fits your pastors beliefs... will you actually look at scripture... I know a cult when I see one! Get out while you can... Tom Cruise has lots of money and they will hunt you down!!!



Run!!!
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
9,899
7,170
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Something else to ponder @Brakelite

The term "Son of Man" sparked no outrage among the Jews, not even from Christ's enemies! Clearly, they did not interpret it as a claim to be a supernatural being, let alone a claim to be God. Can you truly argue that this term, in particular, is surprisingly encouraging to the orthodox belief that the Messiah is God Himself come to save us, or a repurposed angel/son?

What evidence exists to suggest that Jesus' Jewish audience understood it in this way?

F2F
Mmm. You know, ever since I became a Christian nearly 50 years ago, I was taught that unless it is obviously indicated otherwise, scripture should be taken as it reads. I mean, when Jesus said He was a door, or bread, or living water, etc, we understand that's a metaphor and that there was another reality attached to that saying. What doors do, what bread and water does, Jesus does. So when we read in John 1 that the word was with God, the word was God, and the Word became flesh, we don't literally believe a word say beside God, was God, and became a human. So like other metaphors, we take that to believe that what the word does, Jesus does. To understand these metaphors, we go to scripture to see where else they are used and for what. Have you ever heard of the concept of first mention? If a metaphor is established in meaning somewhere in scripture, because God doesn't change, that metaphor remains throughout scripture from the first time it's mentioned. For example, in prophecy beasts are depicted metaphorically as nations/ empires/ political and/or religious governing powers. That's first mention. So when we come to revelation 13, the beasts there cannot be altered into individuals. They are still governmental political or religious powers. Empires or nations, or combination thereof. I find it grossly inconsistent for futurists to maintain that the composite beast of Revelation 13, a composite of former empires, can become an individual. You get what i mean okay?
So the word of John 1 is a metaphor. What did the word do? What does the word of God do? It creates. It intercedes. It mediates. It is the power and authority of God. It comes forth from God, is a part of God, and effects the will of God. Just as the Son did.
“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. ”
Isaiah 55:11
As did His only begotten Son, that was with God in the beginning, was God from His beginning, and became flesh for the salvation of men.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So your saying John the Apostle was a liar? and the truth is not in him?

1Jo 4:12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

Now we know how your theology works... only if it fits your pastors beliefs... will you actually look at scripture... I know a cult when I see one! Get out while you can... Tom Cruise has lots of money and they will hunt you down!!!



Run!!!
Only the LORD God has seen God the FATHER

the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,599
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Mmm. You know, ever since I became a Christian nearly 50 years ago, I was taught that unless it is obviously indicated otherwise, scripture should be taken as it reads.
So, when Scripture reads “there is only one God, the Father,” you take that as proof the trinity goes against Scripture.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CadyandZoe

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
919
235
43
62
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Only the LORD God has seen God the FATHER

the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Verse please... that says.... what you posted....


"Only the LORD God has seen God the FATHER"

Wow.... now your making up verses... How sad.... Does your pastor know of your evil deeds?


You make up scripture like the past....


KJV 1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three
are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit and the water, and the blood: and these three agree
in one.

That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.

External Evidence. (1) the passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from the late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Four of the eight manuscripts contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript.

The eight manuscripts are as follows:

61: codex Montfortianus, dating from the early 16th century.

88.v.r. a variant reading in a 16th century hand, added to the 14th century codex Regius of Naples

221 v.r. a variant reading added to a 10th century manuscript in the Bobleian Library at Oxford.

429 v.r. a variant reading added to a 16th century manuscript at Wolfenbuttel.

636 v.r. a variant reading added to a 16th century manuscript at Naples.

918: a 16th century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.

2318: an 18th century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest Romania.

(2) The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.

(3) The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic). Except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the old Latin in its earliest form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied A.D. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before A.D. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first-hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).

The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as part of the actual text of the Episcopal is in a fourth century Latin treaties entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4.), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. Apparently the gloss arose when the original passage was understood to symbolize the Trinity (though the mention of the three witnesses: the Spirit, the water, and the blood), an interpretation that may have been written first as a marginal note that afterwards found its way into the text. In the fifth century the gloss was quoted by Latin fathers in north Africa and Italy as part of the text of the Epistle, and from the sixth century onwards is found more and more frequently in manuscripts of the old Latin and of the Vulgate. In these various witnesses the wording of the passage differs in several particulars.

(B) Internal Probabilities. (1) As regards transcriptional probability, if the passage were original, no good reason can be found to account for its omission, either accidentally or intentionally, by copyists of hundreds of Greek manuscripts, and by translators of ancient versions.

This is why you fail....
 
Last edited:

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
9,899
7,170
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
So, when Scripture reads “there is only one God, the Father,” you take that as proof the trinity goes against Scripture.
I take it to mean there is only one God, the Father, and His Only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who by His very nature having come forth from God and thus God begotten, He can be rightly called God.
The Father the source of all things, the Son through whom all things come. Those in our early Christian history sought to explain how 2 beings can be one God. Later, it became 3 beings when they included the holy Spirit. Finite men attempting to explain the infinite is never a workable proposition. The creeds became a man made benchmark for Christian or church membership. I simply believe what I read, and don't try to explain. I cannot be an apologetic for something that is not in scripture.

The stone in Daniel 2 that was cut out of the mountain without hands is another metaphor for Christ. He is of the same substance as the mountain. He has independent thought and action which He had voluntarily surrendered to the will of His Father, but He is still a separate individual from the Father, yet are one, the Son submitted to the Father's authority. That's about as far as I can explain the nature of an infinite and unfathomable God using what He has revealed. I go beyond that, I find confusion.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Verse please... that says.... what you posted....


"Only the LORD God has seen God the FATHER"

Wow.... now your making up verses... How sad.... Does your pastor know of your evil deeds?


You make up scripture like the past....


KJV 1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three
are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit and the water, and the blood: and these three agree
in one.

That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.

External Evidence. (1) the passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from the late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Four of the eight manuscripts contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript.

The eight manuscripts are as follows:

61: codex Montfortianus, dating from the early 16th century.

88.v.r. a variant reading in a 16th century hand, added to the 14th century codex Regius of Naples

221 v.r. a variant reading added to a 10th century manuscript in the Bobleian Library at Oxford.

429 v.r. a variant reading added to a 16th century manuscript at Wolfenbuttel.

636 v.r. a variant reading added to a 16th century manuscript at Naples.

918: a 16th century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.

2318: an 18th century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest Romania.

(2) The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.

(3) The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic). Except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the old Latin in its earliest form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied A.D. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before A.D. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first-hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).

The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as part of the actual text of the Episcopal is in a fourth century Latin treaties entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4.), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. Apparently the gloss arose when the original passage was understood to symbolize the Trinity (though the mention of the three witnesses: the Spirit, the water, and the blood), an interpretation that may have been written first as a marginal note that afterwards found its way into the text. In the fifth century the gloss was quoted by Latin fathers in north Africa and Italy as part of the text of the Epistle, and from the sixth century onwards is found more and more frequently in manuscripts of the old Latin and of the Vulgate. In these various witnesses the wording of the passage differs in several particulars.

(B) Internal Probabilities. (1) As regards transcriptional probability, if the passage were original, no good reason can be found to account for its omission, either accidentally or intentionally, by copyists of hundreds of Greek manuscripts, and by translators of ancient versions.

This is why you fail....
Take your religious blinders off and READ CAREFULLY

the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
And one cried to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”

only the Lord God has seen God the FATHER
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Mmm. You know, ever since I became a Christian nearly 50 years ago,
There must be a number old/er believers on this website! hehe Dont worry I'm getting up there!

I was taught that unless it is obviously indicated otherwise, scripture should be taken as it reads.
No...most Scripture requires thought and interpretation.
I mean, when Jesus said He was a door, or bread, or living water, etc, we understand that's a metaphor and that there was another reality attached to that saying.
Correct.
What doors do, what bread and water does, Jesus does. So when we read in John 1 that the word was with God, the word was God, and the Word became flesh, we don't literally believe a word say beside God, was God, and became a human. So like other metaphors, we take that to believe that what the word does, Jesus does. To understand these metaphors, we go to scripture to see where else they are used and for what. Have you ever heard of the concept of first mention? If a metaphor is established in meaning somewhere in scripture, because God doesn't change, that metaphor remains throughout scripture from the first time it's mentioned. For example, in prophecy beasts are depicted metaphorically as nations/ empires/ political and/or religious governing powers.
Correct.
That's first mention. So when we come to revelation 13, the beasts there cannot be altered into individuals.
The are nations / empires!
They are still governmental political or religious powers.
Correct
Empires or nations, or combination thereof. I find it grossly inconsistent for futurists to maintain that the composite beast of Revelation 13, a composite of former empires, can become an individual. You get what i mean okay?
The first creature emerges from the sea, while the second rises from the earth. The first is compared to various beasts, with seven heads and ten horns; the second has two horns, and though it appears like a lamb, it speaks and behaves like a dragon. The first beast suffers a grave wound but recovers, gaining significant power with the assistance of the dragon. The second beast shares dominion with the first, using its influence to make the world worship the first beast. The first beast reigns for forty-two months, wielding great power and blaspheming God and His people. The second beast creates an image of the first and forces everyone to worship it under the threat of death. This vision as a whole symbolizes the power and influence of Roman Catholicism in its political forms, particularly highlighting the severe persecution it used to compel people to accept its doctrines and practices.
So the word of John 1 is a metaphor. What did the word do? What does the word of God do? It creates. It intercedes. It mediates.
More accurately "The Word" speaks, Logos signifies the outward expression of inward thought or reason. It represents more than a mere
word, for it incorporates the thought behind the word expressed. Elsewhere, we learn that wisdom was with God in the beginning, and was manifested in His acts. Jesus Christ is the outward expression of Yahweh's inward thought, just as we are though Jesus is in a very unique way!
It is the power and authority of God. It comes forth from God, is a part of God, and effects the will of God. Just as the Son did.
“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. ”
Isaiah 55:11
As did His only begotten Son, that was with God in the beginning, was God from His beginning, and became flesh for the salvation of men.
No, Jesus was in the Mind of God from the Beginning - Logos belongs to Yahweh alone and it is Him Who does as He pleases with it. He used it to create the Heavens and in doing so had His Son in Mind.

Jesus is not Literally the Word, but a manifestation of that Word.

This is how God works consistently in His Creation.

F2F
 

Runningman

Active Member
Dec 3, 2023
547
232
43
39
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Exploring Trinitarian Logic​

According to Trinitarianism, God is one being that exists as three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. This is the standard, but it also depends who you ask.

In any case, an interesting anomaly in Trinitarian logic arises immediately in John 1:1. The KJV says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

In Trinitarianism, it's the assumption that "the Word" refers to Jesus before he was incarnated and therefore under this premise "Jesus is God" because John 1:1 says "the Word was God."

So if the "Word" is Jesus then John 1:1 can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and the Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."

But if Jesus is God then John 1:1 would plainly be saying "God was with God" which would be two Gods.

If God means the Father in John 1:1 then it can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father."

That also doesn't make any sense from a Trinitarian perspective.

As previously stated, God is one being that exists as three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit according to Trinitarian logic.

So if God is replaced with "Trinity" then John 1:1 can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Trinity, and Jesus was the Trinity."

This would mean that Jesus who is supposed to be part of the Trinity is actually within the Trinity or it says Jesus was the Trinity.

Throughout history, the greatest minds and theologians have confessed that the Trinity is an incomprehensible mystery. Or maybe they just got it all wrong?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aunty Jane

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
According to Trinitarianism, God is one being that exists as three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. This is the standard, but it also depends who you ask.

In any case, an interesting anomaly in Trinitarian logic arises immediately in John 1:1. The KJV says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

In Trinitarianism, it's the assumption that "the Word" refers to Jesus before he was incarnated and therefore under this premise "Jesus is God" because John 1:1 says "the Word was God."

So if the "Word" is Jesus then John 1:1 can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and the Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."

But if Jesus is God then John 1:1 would plainly be saying "God was with God" which would be two Gods.

If God means the Father in John 1:1 then it can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father."

That also doesn't make any sense from a Trinitarian perspective.

As previously stated, God is one being that exists as three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit according to Trinitarian logic.

So if God is replaced with "Trinity" then John 1:1 can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Trinity, and Jesus was the Trinity."

This would mean that Jesus who is supposed to be part of the Trinity is actually within the Trinity or it says Jesus was the Trinity.

Throughout history, the greatest minds and theologians have confessed that the Trinity is an incomprehensible mystery. Or maybe they just got it all wrong?
Genesis Says: God exists as Three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
GOSPEL Says: God exists as Three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Apostles Say: God exists as Three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Fixed it for you.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Genesis Says: God exists as Three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
GOSPEL Says: God exists as Three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Apostles Say: God exists as Three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Fixed it for you.
2 Persons and Power :gd
 

Runningman

Active Member
Dec 3, 2023
547
232
43
39
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Genesis Says: God exists as Three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
GOSPEL Says: God exists as Three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Apostles Say: God exists as Three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Fixed it for you.
To be fair, the Bible does not explicitly state what you claimed anywhere, especially in regards to specifically "three persons." However, God is described as one person repeatedly even though, as far as I know, the KJV is the only one that actually calls God a person in Hebrews 1.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Trinitarians often accuse Unitarians of starting with the assumption that God is only one person, but this is not the case. What is assumed is that the Bible is a coherent literary work, consistent in its language. This means that if language is used to define God as a single person, it should be understood in that way, just as the language would be interpreted for any other individual. This is not to deny that anthropomorphic language may be used to describe God, but outside of this specific context, there is consistency. To suggest otherwise creates a "God language" where the meaning of words is altered, allowing for an arbitrary application that can make the text mean anything—even the opposite of what is stated. Instead of seeking a "God language," the better approach is to accept that the Bible authors used language in a way that allowed readers to understand the text clearly. Trinitarians often accuse others of assuming their doctrine, but the truth is, Trinitarians impose their theology onto the text, overriding a consistent reading of it. Barron 2009
 
  • Like
Reactions: Runningman
Status
Not open for further replies.