Yes, Christ enter the Holy place with his blood for his God, his Father, and received himself permanent redemption, for all the chosen...amen
Exploring Trinitarian Logic
- Thread starter RedFan
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
If Jesus needed to be raised from the dead, then he needed to be saved.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
@Johann
See how the Trinity Doctrine robs the Gospel of its true message?
People often confuse "redemption" with "pardon" or "expiation," but they are not the same. Redemption occurs when someone is set free, and its meaning depends on the context. To be redeemed from sin means being set free from sin, with the intention of never sinning again. To be redeemed from death means being set free from death, so that one never has to face death again. While Jesus did not need to be set free from sin, he did need to be set free from death.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Jesus needed to be saved from eternal damnation how so?
He was able to be raised because he was without blemish, he passed all that God brought before him.
Jesus Spirit didn’t need to be saved, he was without sin?
We are the ones who need to be saved, which can only come through the death and resurrection of the anointed/ divine one...Jesus Christ.
Just my thoughts.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Since I saw your post late, can I quote what I already wrote above?
People often confuse "redemption" with "pardon" or "expiation," but they are not the same. Redemption occurs when someone is set free, and its meaning depends on the context. To be redeemed from sin means being set free from sin, with the intention of never sinning again. To be redeemed from death means being set free from death, so that one never has to face death again. While Jesus did not need to be set free from sin, he did need to be set free from death.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Ok Brother, I need to ask for guidance on what you say here, many thanks.
Romans 6:1–23
English Standard Version
Dead to Sin, Alive to God6 What shall we say then? mAre we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can nwe who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us owho have been baptized pinto Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were qburied therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as rChrist was raised from the dead by sthe glory of the Father, we too might walk in tnewness of life.
5 For uif we have been united with him in va death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that wour old self1 xwas crucified with him in order that ythe body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For zone who has died ahas been set free2 from sin. 8 Now bif we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that cChrist, being raised from the dead, will never die again; ddeath no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, eonce for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves fdead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not gsin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 hDo not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but ipresent yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For jsin kwill have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? lAre we to sin mbecause we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves nto anyone as obedient slaves,3 you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But othanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the pstandard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, qhaving been set free from sin, rhave become slaves of righteousness. 19 sI am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For tjust as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members uas slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 vFor when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 wBut what fruit were you getting at that time from the things xof which you are now ashamed? yFor the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you zhave been set free from sin and ahave become slaves of God, bthe fruit you get leads to sanctification and cits end, eternal life. 23 dFor the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Last edited:
I know the difference between redemption, pardon or expiation and I say again, Jesus did not need redemption, or to redeem Himself. That's absolutely ridiculous.
From a biblical perspective:
Jesus' death was voluntary and part of His redemptive mission (John 10:17-18), meaning He willingly laid down His life and had the authority to take it up again.
Death could not hold Jesus because He is the sinless Son of God (Acts 2:24), and the resurrection was the divine demonstration of His victory over sin and death (1 Corinthians 15:55-57).
While Jesus experienced physical death, He was never in bondage to it as humans are due to sin (Romans 6:23).
His resurrection was not a "setting free" in the sense of release from captivity but rather a triumph and demonstration of His power over death.
In summary, your phrasing might miscommunicate the theological reality of Christ's victory over death. A more precise statement could be:
"While Jesus did not need to be set free from sin, His resurrection demonstrated His victory over death and sin's consequences."
J.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Was Jesus freed from death or not? Yes. He was redeemed (freed) from death.
Try to bear the facts in mind.
I agreed with this in my previous statement.
No. It was a demonstration of the Father's power over death. Jesus was dead and could not exert any power.
@face2face , @Aunty Jane
I am much surprised about your answer on my first point -
1. We know Jesus was the ONLY human Who preexisted and knew His life with the Father when He was on Earth (John 17)
John - 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Do you REALLY both deny Jesus preexistence with the Father ?
And if the answer is a "yes" then it does not make sense to talk about point 2-5.
I am much surprised about your answer on my first point -
1. We know Jesus was the ONLY human Who preexisted and knew His life with the Father when He was on Earth (John 17)
John - 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Do you REALLY both deny Jesus preexistence with the Father ?
And if the answer is a "yes" then it does not make sense to talk about point 2-5.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Amen!
He was raised by the power of His Father...he put his full trust in God, that he would raise him from death, same as we put our trust in God to raise us from the dead also....
After all, Jesus was God’s Son and Jesus knew that 100%.....same as we know that we are spirit children of God.
Short commentary.
Paul is clear: Resurrection is a work of the Holy Spirit of God. That's one of the things He does. He raised Jesus from the dead, and He will do the same for all who are in Christ when the time comes.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
John 17
King James Version
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Last edited:
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I'll try to bear facts in mind, you do the same.
Act 2:24 whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it,
Act 2:24 whom ὃν - ὁ God Θεὸς raised up, ἀνέστησεν having loosed λύσας the τὰς agony ὠδῖνας of τοῦ death, θανάτου, inasmuch as καθότι it was ἦν not οὐκ possible [for] δυνατὸν Him αὐτὸν to be held κρατεῖσθαι by ὑπ’ it. αὐτοῦ.
Acts 2:24 in Greek Syntax
The key verse, Acts 2:24, reads:
"ὃν ὁ Θεὸς ἀνέστησεν λύσας τὰς ὠδῖνας τοῦ θανάτου, καθότι οὐκ ἦν δυνατὸν κρατεῖσθαι αὐτὸν ὑπ᾽ αὐτοῦ."
("whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it.")
λύσας (lusas): From λύω, meaning "to loose" or "to release." This indicates an act of release from something that exerted a hold.
ὠδῖνας τοῦ θανάτου (ōdinas tou thanatou): Literally, "the birth pangs of death." This metaphor suggests the agony or grip of death.
κρατεῖσθαι (krateisthai): From κρατέω, meaning "to hold," emphasizing the inability of death to maintain its hold on Jesus.
Transliteration: krateisthai
Morphology: V-PNM/P
Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive
Strong's no.: G2902 (κρατέω)
Meaning: To be strong, mighty, hence: to rule, to be master, prevail; to obtain, take hold of; to hold, hold fast.
The verse describes God’s act of raising Jesus as a "loosening" from the grip or pangs of death. This suggests that Jesus experienced the reality of death (as part of His humanity), and God’s power intervened to release Him from its hold through the resurrection.
Jesus and the "Cords of Death"
The idea of being "set free from the cords of death" finds support in the Psalms, which are often understood as pointing to Christ:
Psalm 18:4-5 (LXX 17:5-6):
"σπαραγγίσθησαν αἱ ὠδῖνες θανάτου, καὶ οἱ χείμαρροι τῆς ἀνομίας ἐξετάραξάν με."
("The pangs of death encompassed me, and the torrents of ungodliness terrified me.")
This language parallels Acts 2:24 and reinforces the imagery of being delivered from death’s grip.
Did Jesus Need to Be Set Free?
Yes, in His humanity: Jesus, having truly died, entered the realm of death. In this sense, His resurrection was an act of being "set free" or "loosed" from death’s hold.
However, this should not imply that death had ultimate dominion over Him. Death’s hold was temporary, as it could not "hold" Him permanently (Acts 2:24).
No, in His divinity: As the Son of God, Jesus had authority over life and death (John 10:17-18). His resurrection demonstrates His victory over death, not a helpless need for deliverance.
My final Statement
Jesus did experience the cords or pangs of death in His human nature, but He was "loosed" from them by the power of God. This was not because death had ultimate dominion over Him but because His mission required Him to enter into death and then triumph over it.
Needs some clarification.
Biblical Perspective on Resurrection Power
The Father's Role in Raising Jesus:
Acts 2:24: "God raised Him up, having loosed the pains of death."
Romans 6:4: "Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father."
Ephesians 1:19-20: The resurrection is attributed to the "working of His mighty power" by the Father.
These passages emphasize the Father’s role in raising Jesus, highlighting divine initiative and power.
Jesus' Authority over Death:
John 10:17-18: Jesus says, "I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again."
This statement indicates that Jesus, even in His humanity, had divine authority to reclaim His life.
The Role of the Holy Spirit:
Romans 8:11: "If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies."
This verse attributes the resurrection to the Spirit’s power.
Did Jesus "Exert Power" in His Resurrection?
During the period of His physical death, Jesus’ human body was lifeless, and His divine nature did not cease to exist but remained fully united with the Father and the Spirit. The New Testament attributes the act of resurrection primarily to the Father and occasionally to the Spirit. However, Jesus’ earlier declaration of His authority to lay down and take up His life (John 10:17-18) suggests His involvement in the resurrection is consistent with the unity of the Trinity.
The resurrection was indeed a demonstration of the Father's power over death, as Acts 2:24 and other passages affirm. However, it does not exclude Jesus’ inherent authority and victory over death, consistent with His divine nature.
Thus, Jesus' resurrection is both a triumph of the Father's will and a fulfillment of Jesus' own declaration of authority.
Since you are in denial of the Triune Godhead.
Wow... Face, you adding to Scripture ?
Let's check the real Scripture and in context -
Hebr 9:11 And Christ being come, chief priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands--that is, not of this creation--
Hebr 9:12 neither through blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, did enter in once into the holy places, age-during redemption having obtained;
Hebr 9:13 for if the blood of bulls, and goats, and ashes of an heifer, sprinkling those defiled, doth sanctify to the purifying of the flesh,
Hebr 9:14 how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebr 9:15 And because of this, of a new covenant he is mediator, that, death having come, for redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, those called may receive the promise of the age-during inheritance,
Hebr 9:16 for where a covenant is, the death of the covenant-victim to come in is necessary,
---------
Where does the passage state Christ needed redemption?
We do !
By His blood as the passage says, establishing the new covenant.
Thanks for admitting Messiah preexisted. Unless you want to divorce Jesus with His glory.
Joh 17:5 And καὶ now νῦν glorify δόξασόν Me, με You σύ, Father, Πάτερ, with παρὰ Yourself, σεαυτῷ with the τῇ glory δόξῃ that ᾗ I had εἶχον with παρὰ You σοί. before πρὸ the τὸν world κόσμον - τοῦ existed. εἶναι
Joh 17:5 'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;
With thine own self (para seautōi). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. Jhn_1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (Jhn_1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (hēi eichon, imperfect active of echō, I used to have, with attraction of case of hēn to hēi because of doxēi), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” (cf. Jhn_17:24).
It is small wonder that those who deny or reject the deity of Jesus Christ have trouble with the Johannine authorship of this book and with the genuineness of these words.
But even Harnack admits that the words here and in Jhn_17:24 are “undoubtedly the reflection of the certainty with which Jesus himself spoke” (What Is Christianity, Engl. Tr., p. 132).
But Paul, as clearly as John, believes in the actual pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ (Php_2:5-11).
J.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Trinititarian anti-logic is incredible. The trinity is not in Scripture. What is in Scripture that is explicit and repeated is ignored - there is only God the Father.
Because of IDOLATRY, this is not good enough for trinitarians.
We are in the end times, brother-subtle deceptions through the addition of words, redefinitions, and the denial of the Messiah’s deity.
Stay strong.
Johann.
Luk 22:39 And he came out and went, as was his custom, to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples followed him.
Luk 22:40 And when he came to the place, he said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.”
Luk 22:41 And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,
Luk 22:42 saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”
Luk 22:43 And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Luk 22:45 And when he rose from prayer, he came to the disciples and found them sleeping for sorrow,
Luk 22:46 and he said to them, “Why are you sleeping? Rise and pray that you may not enter into temptation.”
-----
So, what's your point?
- Status
Similar threads
