Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[Davidpt]

The Jews don’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah, so why should we trust their view on Ezekiel 38-39?

That's hardly accurate since some Jews do believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Not to mention as well, OT saints that are among the saved. What about any of them? Do any of them know anything about Ezekiel 38-39 having already been fulfilled sometime in their past history?

 

[Davidpt]

And in 20:11-15, I do not see anything that tells me that this GWTRJ is for anyone other than the "dead"... which of course would exclude those that have been with Jesus for the 1000 years.

Exactly! And some Amils can't seem to grasp that it makes zero sense that if someone has already put on bodily immortality at the last trump prior to the GWTJ, that they would then still be depicted as the dead then standing among those depicted as the dead. What is the point in putting on bodily immortality, that if after you do that you are still depicted as the dead?

 

[grafted branch]

Therefore, you are wasting time looking for some literal nations or empires in the Middle East that you believe will prepare for a war with literal weapons against national Israel. It is because you are looking at wrong Israel and wrong Gog and Magog.

Hold on a minute, I’m not arguing against the Revelation 20 Gog/Magog event being spiritual in nature, I’m saying the Ezekiel 38-39 Gog/Magog event was a literal historical event.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 

[CTK]

Exactly! And some Amils can't seem to grasp that it makes zero sense that if someone has already put on bodily immortality at the last trump prior to the GWTJ, that they would then still be depicted as the dead then standing among those depicted as the dead. What is the point in putting on bodily immortality, that if after you do that you are still depicted as the dead?

Well, at least I got something right!

 

[grafted branch]

That's hardly accurate since some Jews do believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Not to mention as well, OT saints that are among the saved. What about any of them? Do any of them know anything about Ezekiel 38-39 having already been fulfilled sometime in their past history?

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

It’s entirely possible that understanding the Gog/Magog event as being physically fulfilled in the past is knowledge being increased.

 

[Davidpt]

An argument for Ezekiel describing an ancient battle that was fought with ancient weapons.



Gog’s army would attack on horseback, carrying swords, war clubs and spears. In verses 5-7, Ezekiel identifies Gog’s allies as Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer, Beth-Togarmah. The nations that fought with these literal ancient weapons were literal ancient nations. There is no need to extrapolate this into modern weapons or nations.

Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from Persia, Cush, and from the remote parts of the north, these are all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther 8:9 we know that the Persian Empire extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces in all. Cush and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1, 3 and Ezekiel 38:5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shield and helmet. The other nations were established in the geographical boundaries from India to Cush in the 127 provinces over which Xerxes ruled (Esther 1:1). What this means is that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia and this is recorded in both Esther and Ezekiel.

During Ezekiel’s time Babylon was the major power yet he prophesied about a future Persian empire. If his prophecy was meant for thousands of years in future it would’ve made sense to describe things using the current empire not the next empire that would no longer be in existence thousands of years later when the prophecy is fulfilled.

How does one explain the following then, since that is not something that happens everyday, and if it did happen in the past, it's not something they are going to forget anytime soon if this happened during their past history?

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually, I see this being reasonable what I quoted you here saying. My view is that the 7th vial of wrath is in view at the end of Ezekiel 38 and that I don't take the 7th vial of wrath to be meaning something that only takes place in the middle east or something.

The reasons why I think the 7th vial of wrath is in view is by comparing the following.

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Compared with.

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Both accounts involve an earthquake and great hail. Look what Ezekiel 38:20 records---and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. Which then means His presence explains the great earthquake meant in Revelation 16.

Then there is this in Ezekiel 39.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.


Compared with.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


Both accounts have this in common---Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD---and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Notice that the latter says from the throne, obviously meaning the Lord God, the same Lord God that said that in Ezekiel 39:8 as well, that it is done.

And both accounts have a great earthquake and great hail in common, not to mention, both accounts have God's wrath in common---For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath(Ezekiel 38:19). And that all of these things I just submitted per Ezekiel 38-39 are things pertaining to the 7th vial as well. Just a coincidence, therefore, nothing to see here? I hardly think so. Maybe you or others might think so, but I don't.

Sure, that's a possibility because of the similar text. As I always point out, though, I don't think it's wise to make Ezekiel 38-39 part of the foundation of one's doctrine. It's one of the most difficult passages in the entire Bible to interpret. Bible doctrine should be based on more clear passages than that. It's interesting to talk about and try to interpret, but when I see people try to base their doctrine on it, I just don't get that.

But, at the same time, there are similarities between Ezekiel 39 and Acts 2, so it's just hard to say what Ezekiel 38-39 is all about. When I read this:

Ezekiel 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

It reminds me of this:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

 

[Davidpt]

The Jews don’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah, so why should we trust their view on Ezekiel 38-39?

What does that have to do with anything? Have you not noticed that the Jews come out to be the winners here, not the losers? The losers are the ones coming against them. If this actually happened in the past, Jews would be proud to admit it not deny it or try to hide the fact, the fact they are the winners in this account, not the losers.

 

[grafted branch]

How does one explain the following then, since that is not something that happens everyday, and if it did happen in the past, it's not something they are going to forget anytime soon if this happened during their past history?

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Often in the Old Testament the prophets spoke of God’s wrath in hyperbolic, symbolic language. One great example is Micah 1.

Behold, Yahweh is coming out of His place and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. The mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will split open like wax before the fire, like waters poured down a steep place.

MICAH 1:3-4

Micah was actually describing the destruction of ancient Jerusalem and Samaria, yet he used language that sounds apocalyptic. God didn’t literally walk on mountains and melt them. It was metaphorical for His wrath. Likewise, I believe God did not rain hail and sulfur and fire on Gog’s army. It is metaphorical for His wrath. With all that said, we still have this question: how did the Persians die then if not by earthquake, hail, or sulfur? The answer is found in verses 21-22.

‘I will summon a sword against Gog on all My mountains,’ declares the Lord, Yahweh. ‘Every man’s sword will be against his brother. With pestilence and bloodshed I will enter into judgment with him.’

EZEKIEL 38:21-22A

God destroyed the Persian army sent by Haman via disease and betrayal. While Esther does not describe a disease, it does describe the death of many Persians by their own hands.

In every province and in every city, wherever the king’s command and his edict reached, there was gladness and joy among the Jews, a feast and a holiday. Many from the peoples of the country declares themselves to be Jews, for fear of the Jews had fallen on them. … The officials of the provinces and the satraps and the governors and the royal agents also helped the Jews, for the fear of Mordecai had fallen on them.

ESTHER 8:17, 9:3

Many Persians decided to not destroy the Jews, but rather to defend them. Consequently, they destroyed themselves, just as Ezekiel 38 describes. The result of all this is the glorification of God, who providentially turned the tables on those who would annihilate His people. Instead, they themselves were annihilated.

So, I will show My greatness and My holiness and make Myself known in the eyes of many nations. Then, they will know that I am Yahweh.

EZEKIEL 38:23


When looking at Ezekiel 38 verse-by-verse, the meaning is straightforward, though some verses like Ezekiel 38:22 are difficult. This text describes Haman’s attempted genocide against the Jews, but his army was destroyed by infighting, just as Esther describes. Ezekiel 38 fits the ancient and prophetic context. Haman’s army used ancient weapons of war. Haman’s army came from ancient nations within the Persian Empire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can you point out in the following text below where you see any of the following standing in front of God to be judged along with the dead?(In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory)1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead , small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This type of argument is invalid. Are you not aware by now that not every passage relating to a particular event contains all of the details related to that event? For example, we both believe that 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 describe the same event, right? We can see that 1 Thess 4:14-17 doesn't say anything about the timing in relation to the tribulation or anything about the angels gathering the elect and Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't say anything about anyone being resurrected or anyone meeting Jesus in the air, yet we still conclude that the two passages are about the same event because of their similarities. So, why do you require Revelation 20:12-15 to have every detail related to the GWTJ in it in order to relate it to any other passage when you have no such requirements for relating other passages? A fuller picture of the GWTJ can be found in Matthew 25:31-46 and you can see there that both the righteous and the wicked will be there. And it's a safe assumption that the righteous will include the resurrected dead in Christ.

If the last trump precedes the GWTJ and that the latter is involving judging the dead, in what way, or in what universe, is one still considered among the dead if they become bodily immortal before, not after nor during the GWTJ, but prior to it? That would be like saying, once Christ rose from the dead and became immortal bodily, He was still depicted as dead.

I believe that passage is specifically referring to the judgment of the wicked dead. They are not actually still dead at that point. How could that make sense? It doesn't specifically say it, but they obviously will be resurrected first before standing before the throne to be judged.

Premil believes that not one single person that has part in the first resurrection will then be standing among the dead at the GWTJ.

Premil is wrong about that. Premil does not take other scripture into account when interpreting Revelation 20. Premil's interpretation of Revelation 20:11-15 contradicts passages like Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 which all have both the righteous and wicked being judged at the same time. It just so happens that Revelation 20:11-15 focuses particularly on the judgment of the wicked dead and them being cast into the lake of fire. The righteous will inherit eternal life in the new heavens and new earth at that point and the NHNE is talked about right after Revelation 20:11-15.

Obviously then,
there has to be another judgment that precedes the one meant in Revelation 20:12-15.

Obviously, your comment is based on doctrinal bias and not on scripture. Nowere in scripture is it taught that there will be two separate judgments. Using the kind of logic you're using here to draw this conclusion, we couldn't even relate any two passages of scripture together unless they each contained the same exact details. That's not how to interpret scripture.

Maybe it's meaning the following in this case?

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

In context who is being meant by 'we must all'? Is all the lost since the beginning of time through the end of time being addressed as well? It could be involving, since it says good or bad, not all of the lost as well, IOW, just some of the lost, as in OSAS and NOSAS.

Where does that verse indicate that anyone from any time is excepted from that judgment? The following passage refers to the same judgment and indicates that all without exception will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Would you agree that literally every person who has ever lived will one day bow before the judgment seat of Christ? If not, then you are sadly mistaken because it will happen. Guaranteed. Every single person who has ever lived will bow before Him without exception. With that in mind, why would that not occur in one event instead of two, as you believe? That event is described in Matthew 25:31-46 and will occur when Jesus comes with His angels.

 

[Davidpt]

No you misunderstood. God, much of the time, speaks through the use of parables containing symbols, allegories, metaphors, etc., all in picturesque language.

Simply put, God is stating that at the end of the symbolical thousand years, which is a reference to the New Testament Church Age, Satan will then be released from his prison and shall then go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth - Gog and Magog. It appears quite clear then that Gog and Magog are two names that represent the peoples of the world even if Gog represents Satan before being loosed (under the roof) and Magog represents Satan after being loosed (out from under the roof). These are the multitudes that are under Satan’s influence and are fighting his battles for him. Satan is Satan and cannot be Gog and Magog but rather Gog and Magog appear to be the armies of Satan; the armies of the world; the armies from the four quarters of the earth.

The battle of Gog and Magog is a spiritual war WITHIN, and ONLY WITHIN the congregation of God making up of True Elect and Professed Christians. The nations of Ezekiel 38 are a type of professed Christians who used to work within the church as merchants of the Gospel. Remember, God is using both His Elect and His Unsaved Professed Christians to build church together for the past 2,000 years until all Elect has been secured. Then God will remove his restrained hand so that the spirit Satan within the professed Christians will turn and wage war against the True Elect. This is why the enemies are wearing the same armor and weapons as the Elect to show that they are part of God's congregation but corporately or externally just as the court which is without the temple in Revelation 1:2 will suffer judgment.

So, I do believe that the battle of Gog and Magog is taking place because the church all over the world has fallen into apostasy BECAUSE of the "rise of false prophets and christs" that Christ warned about in Matthew 24. And when we see the abomination of desolation take place in churches where it ought not, we will know that we need to leave the church to avoid the plagues that GOd will send upon his unfaithful church.

Therefore, you are wasting time looking for some literal nations or empires in the Middle East that you believe will prepare for a war with literal weapons against national Israel. It is because you are looking at wrong Israel and wrong Gog and Magog.

There is still chronology to consider regardless how one interprets these things. Because after Gog and his multitude are dead and buried, and if meaning in the end of this age involving the 2nd coming, we then have to explain all of the following since none of it can be meaning before Gog and his multitude are dead buried. IOW, this is not as simple as you appear to be making it out to be.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.


This involves 7 years and it involves 7 months, which means something has to explain these 7 years and 7 months post that of Christ's return if what happens to Gog and his multitude involve His return. It doesn't matter how one might want to interpret the above, we simply can't ignore that it will be involving 7 years and 7 months post that of the judgment on Gog and his multitude. And that there has to be a time period that can explain these years and months.

 

[grafted branch]

What does that have to do with anything? Have you not noticed that the Jews come out to be the winners here, not the losers? The losers are the ones coming against them. If this actually happened in the past, Jews would be proud to admit it not deny it or try to hide the fact, the fact they are the winners in this account, not the losers.

The Jews just don’t recognize the victory is recorded in Esther.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you are saying the GWTRJ is also for those who spent the 1000 years with Jesus?

It's for everyone. You agreed with me when I said "I believe scripture clearly teaches that there is just one judgment of all people. Not two or more judgments or judgment days as premils believe.". If you really agree with me about that, then why would "those who spent the 1000 years with Jesus" be excepted in a judgment of all people? All people from all-time will stand before Christ to be judged (Romans 14:10-12) including you and me. We all will be judged and have to give an account of ourselves, according to 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10-12. Jesus gave a fuller picture of that judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 than we are given in Revelation 20:11-15.

Well, I don't understand why you could place restraints on how long it would take God to judge... and then continue to mention there is no time anyway....

I'm simply explaining why I believe the judgment will occur in the realm of eternity instead of time. Imagine each person being judged in the realm of time and how long that would take. It doesn't even make sense for that to be the case.

So, back to my question ... we have Jesus returning and where He will take with Him those dead and alive who placed their faith in Him... they will be with Him for 1000 years.

You are describing the premillennial view which I disagree with. I am an amillennialist. He has been reigning since His resurrection (Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Revelation 1:5-6, etc.). The thousand years are not a literal thousand years but symbolically represents the time between His first and second coming minus a "little season" of time before His second coming when Satan is allowed to wreak unrestrained havoc before he is cast into the lake of fire.

Those that were alive at this time who rejected Him would be destroyed by the sword of His mouth.

Agree. So, what mortals does this leave to populate the earth for a thousand years? None. So, can you see how premil does not line up with the rest of scripture? Premil requires mortals to be on the earth for a thousand years (plus Satan's little season) after Christ returns, but scripture does not teach that any mortals will survive His return.

Now, there are only two groups - those with Christ and those dead in the grave that have rejected Him - all times..

Yep. And those with Christ will all have immortal bodies at that point, correct? And there will be no living wicked dead at that point. So, what does that tell you about the idea of mortals roaming around on the earth for a thousand years after He returns? Impossible, right? So, that disproves premillennialism. The only alternate believe I've seen is that believers are all in heaven at that point with no one on the earth for a thousand years which is what people like Seventh-Day Adventists believe. But, I can't take that view seriously.

After the 1000 years, God raises up the dead and satanand destroys them with fire and they are sent to the lake of fire. Now, this I believe represents "today's accepted interpretations." Do you agree?

No, I completely disagree. 100%. I believe that it's talking about literal fire coming down on Christ's enemies on the earth at that point. It's not talking about fire coming down on the resurrected dead there. Where are you even getting that from? The living wicked will be destroyed physically by fire when Jesus returns (see 2 Peter 3:10-12) and then after that the judgment will occur and they will be cast into the lake of fire. It seems that you may be getting the lake of fire confused with the fire that will come down from heaven to destroy the wicked.

So, the only thing left for me to consider in my outline before working on a narrative is to address the last "event" that is mentioned - the GWTRJ. And my question is simply.... does this event require and imply another resurrection and destructive event because it is places after the destruction of fire...... And in 20:11-15, I do not see anything that tells me that this GWTRJ is for anyone other than the "dead"... which of course would exclude those that have been with Jesus for the 1000 years.

I'm sure you are aware that not every passage about a particular event contains every detail related to that event. Agree? So, with that in mind, why would you assume that only the dead will stand before the GWT? Other scripture tells us that all people from all time will stand before the throne to be judged and give an account of themselves, so shouldn't those scriptures be taken into account as well instead of drawing conclusions from just one scripture in Revelation 20? I certainly believe so.

There is one HUGE problem with how you are going about this. You are trying to interpret Revelation 20 in isolation from the rest of scripture. That is a terrible idea. Why would you do that? Why not instead use the rest of scripture to guide your understanding of Revelation 20?

 

[Davidpt]

The Jews just don’t recognize the victory is recorded in Esther.

What some of you fail to grasp, every single time the Jews have been expelled from their land, they eventually return to it. The last time they were expelled was 70 AD, which means they have to return eventually, which is exactly what they began doing prior to the mid 20th century. They fit to a T the house of Israel meant in Ezekiel 38-39. That account indicates God is hiding His face from them until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. Except He hasn't executed that judgment yet, regardless you believe He has.

Ezekiel 38-39 involve the last days. The last days can't even begin until Christ comes first, which He already did 2000 years ago. Prior to His first coming there were no last days that preceded that, that already came and went.

How can anyone even begin to understand anything in the Bible if when it mentions last days, for example, it's not meaning the same last days throughout but is meaning different last days separated by numerous years? Except God is not supposed to be the author of confusion, yet it is nothing but confusing if when last days are mentioned it is not involving the same last days.

Logically last days have to have a last day eventually otherwise they are not the last days. Therefore, clue us in on when the last day of the last days involving Ezekiel 38-39 occurred?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly! And some Amils can't seem to grasp that it makes zero sense that if someone has already put on bodily immortality at the last trump prior to the GWTJ, that they would then still be depicted as the dead then standing among those depicted as the dead. What is the point in putting on bodily immortality, that if after you do that you are still depicted as the dead?

You have once again misrepresented Amil. You try to debate against something that you don't even understand. Amils do not say that those who have put on bodily immortality are among "the dead" mentioned in that passage. The dead mentioned in that passage end up in the lake of fire. But, what we do say is that there is more going on at the GWTJ than what is described in Revelation 20:11-15. Not every passage about the judgment contains all of the details about it. There are more details about it given by Jesus in passages like Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 25:31-46 and by Paul in passages like 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10-12. We have to look at all of those passages to get the full picture of what will happen at the GWTJ. What a passage like Matthew 25:31-46 shows us is that at the same time unbelievers (the dead) are cast into the lake of fire, believers will inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What some of you fail to grasp, every single time the Jews have been expelled from their land, they eventually return to it. The last time they were expelled was 70 AD, which means they have to return eventually, which is exactly what they began doing prior to the mid 20th century. They fit to a T the house of Israel meant in Ezekiel 38-39. That account indicates God is hiding His face from them until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. Except He hasn't executed that judgment yet, regardless you believe He has.

Ezekiel 38-39 involve the last days. The last days can't even begin until Christ comes first, which He already did 2000 years ago. Prior to His first coming there were no last days that preceded that, that already came and went.

How can anyone even begin to understand anything in the Bible if when it mentions last days, for example, it's not meaning the same last days throughout but is meaning different last days separated by numerous years? Except God is not supposed to be the author of confusion, yet it is nothing but confusing if when last days are mentioned it is not involving the same last days.

Logically last days have to have a last day eventually otherwise they are not the last days. Therefore, clue us in on when the last day of the last days involving Ezekiel 38-39 occurred?

Christ's return has to do with Him taking vengeance on His enemies which are the enemies of His church (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). Why would God focus particularly on judging Gog and Magog at Christ's return when in reality He will judge all of Christ's enemies when He returns?

Also, if Gog and Magog are future entities, then who is Gog and where is Magog and why do they matter so much to God? And, should we use Revelation 20:7-9 to help discern what Ezekiel 38-39 is actually all about since that is the only place in the NT where Gog and Magog are mentioned? In that passage, Gog and Magog symbolically represent a number of people "as the sand of the sea" who oppose God.

Could it be that if Ezekiel 38-39 is a prophecy about the future then it has a broader scope than what appears on the surface and is not really about the nation of Israel, but is instead about the spiritual Israel of God and God judging the enemies of spiritual Israel? It's worth considering since it makes no sense to think that God cares more about the nation of Israel at this point than any other nation, keeping in mind that He is not a respecter of persons and had His Son Jesus bring Jew and Gentile believers together as one body long ago. It's the church that God focuses on now, not the nation of Israel.

 

[Truth7t7]

My bad. I thought maybe you had noted someone interpreting it in that manner in the past and that I was curious as to who since I'm unaware of anyone ever interpreting it in that manner. That aside since my other post didn't come across to you in a good way, let me try this post then.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Verse 5 says this---But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

Except what I have underlined above, per verse 5, can't be meaning nor involving what I don't have underlined in verse 5. And the reeason is simple. Just look at what verse 6 says. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection---and shall reign with him a thousand years. With that in mind what I just submitted in the preceding sentence, let's look at the following in verse 5 again, then compare that with the following recorded in verse 6.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished---compared with---he that hath part in the first resurrection--shall reign with him a thousand years. Obviously, the rest of the dead can't also reign with Him a thousand years if they don't even live again until the thousand years are finished. Keeping in mind this in verse 4 as well---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The keywords being--and they lived--something that the rest of the dead don't do again until after the thousand years are finished. Therefore, in verse 5, this--This is the first resurrection--is only pertaining to those in verse 4 and 6 and are not also meaning the rest of the dead per verse 5, for the reasons I mentioned above.

What we have to keep in mind here, is this. After the thousand years is satan's little season, then after that is the great white throne judgment, and that both events are after the thousand years have finished. IOW, the rest of the dead don't have to live again the moment the thousand years are finished.

They can initially begin living again when they are raised from the dead following satan's little season in order to stand before God at the great white throne judgment. It is still after the thousand years have finished no matter how you look at it. Whether they live again during satan's little season, or whether they live again after satan's little season, both are still meaning after the thousand years have expired.

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

There won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely teach, it's a man made fairy tale found no place in scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

Could it be that if Ezekiel 38-39 is a prophecy about the future then it has a broader scope than what appears on the surface and is not really about the nation of Israel, but is instead about the spiritual Israel of God and God judging the enemies of spiritual Israel?

Your suggestion above is wandering off into a fairy tale land, the scripture in Ezekiel Chapter 39 is self explanatory, no need to dream up symbolic allegory (In Love)

Ezekiel Chapter 39 surrounds Israel's return from the Babylonian Captivity To (Israel/Jerusalem) the battle and event's seen took place "Long Ago" with "Wooden Weapons", Bows, Arrows, Spears, Shields

Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 surrounds the building of the 2nd Zerubabbel Temple in Jerusalem In 536BC

Israel's Return From The Babylonian Captivity Seen Below, Simple, Clear, Easy To Understand. The Prophecy In Ezekiel 39 Was "Fulfilled" Long Ago

Ezekiel 39:27-28KJV
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

 

[grafted branch]

Ezekiel 38-39 involve the last days. The last days can't even begin until Christ comes first, which He already did 2000 years ago. Prior to His first coming there were no last days that preceded that, that already came and went.

Genesis 49:1And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last<319> days.

Deuteronomy 31:29For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter<319> days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

Jeremiah 48:47Yet will I bring again the captivity of Moab in the latter<319> days, saith the LORD. Thus far is the judgment of Moab.



All the above verses use the same word <319> acharith that is used in Ezekiel 38:16. In Genesis 49:1 Jacob’s words were fulfilled in the lifetimes of his descendants. In Deuteronomy 31:29 <319> simple means after Moses’ death, and this took place in Judges 2:20-21. In Jeremiah 48:47 it’s speaking of the captivity of Moab, a nation that no longer exists, they were conquered by Babylon in 582 BC. Are you anticipating Moab to become a nation again so they can go into captivity for this verse to be fulfilled?

According to The Theological dictionary of the Old Testament, in and of themselves, expressions containing <319> simply mean “in the after(wards) of days,” “in the following days,” “in the course of time,” “in the future.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your suggestion above is wandering off into a fairy tale land, the scripture in Ezekiel Chapter 39 is self explanatory, no need to dream up symbolic allegory (In Love)

Are you unable to have an adult, civilized conversation? Why do you feel the need to be childish and rude at every opportunity? I think you need serious help. If you disagree with what I said, fine. It was only a suggestion of what would have to be the case IF it was a future prophecy, and I'm not saying one way or another if it is. Do you understand that? You seem to take offense at any suggestion that any scripture might be symbolic as if symbolism was a bad thing, which it is not. I was just throwing something out there for consideration in the case IF it was a future prophecy while I am humble enough to acknowledge that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is a difficult passage to interpret. Are you humble enough to acknowledge that?

My stance regarding that passage is that it's a difficult one and should not be used as part of the foundation of doctrine. Would you agree with that? You can say it's self explanatory all you want, but you have absolutely no proof that what is described there happened literally at some point in the past. But, you are probably too prideful to admit that. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but we don't have actual proof of it.

The only reference to Gog and Magog in the NT is in Revelation 20:7-9 and it's used symbolically to refer to people who number "as the sand of the sea" from around the world who come against "the camp of the saints" after the thousand years ends. Why do you suppose that it references "Gog and Magog" there and isn't there any possibility that it could relate to the real meaning of Ezekiel 38-39?

Ezekiel Chapter 39 surrounds Israel's return from the Babylonian Captivity To (Israel/Jerusalem) the battle and event's seen took place "Long Ago" with "Wooden Weapons", Bows, Arrows, Spears, Shields

Give me some evidence that a battle just as described in Ezekiel 39 happened in the past. I'm not just going to take your unreliable word for it. If it did, fine, but prove it. Back up your words if you want to be taken seriously.

Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 surrounds the building of the 2nd Zerubabbel Temple in Jerusalem In 536BC

I certainly don't believe that Ezekiel 40-46 is about some future temple, but what evidence do you have that what is described in Ezekiel 40-46 describes "the building of the 2nd Zerubabbel Temple in Jerusalem In 536BC"? Again, if that's true, I'm fine with that, but I am not just going to take your word for it. Your word is not reliable enough. Give me evidence to back up what you're saying.

Israel's Return From The Babylonian Captivity Seen Below, Simple, Clear, Easy To Understand. The Prophecy In Ezekiel 39 Was "Fulfilled" Long Ago

Ezekiel 39:27-28KJV
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

What about the rest of the chapter? Do you just ignore that? How was that fulfilled literally in the past? Do you have any evidence to show that it was? Again, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. But, the way you talk, I would think you have some kind of solid evidence to show that.