The Doctrines of Grace

[ElectedbyHim]

This is only until the child reaches an age where they can go against their conscience and commit a willful sin unto death.

What is the Biblical proof for that?

My parents were Christians, so no. But it wasn't that I was sinning sins unto death, but sins not unto death that my parents beliefs sanctified. Read my post above to Dan.

also need Biblical proof for this statement.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Sin is imputed to all humans.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

The Bible teaches that we are all born sinners with sinful, selfish natures. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God, we will never see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

Humanity is totally depraved; that is, all of us have a sinful nature that affects every part of us (Isaiah 53:6; Romans 7:14). The question is, where did that sinful nature come from? Were we born sinners, or did we simply choose to become sinners sometime after birth?

We are born with a sinful nature, and we inherited it from Adam. “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people” (Romans 5:12). Every one of us was affected by Adam’s sin; there are no exceptions. “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18). We are all sinners, and we all share the same condemnation, because we are all children of Adam.

Scripture indicates that even children have a sin nature, which argues for the fact that we are born sinners. “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child” (Proverbs 22:15). David says, “Surely I was sinful at birth, / sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). “Even from birth the wicked go astray; / from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies” (Psalm 58:3).

Before we were saved, “we were by nature deserving of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3). Note that we deserved God’s wrath not only because of our actions but because of our nature. That nature is what we inherited from Adam.

We are born sinners, and for that reason we are unable to do good in order to please God in our natural state, or the flesh: “Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God” (Romans 8:8). We were dead in our sins before Christ raised us to spiritual life (Ephesians 2:1). We lack any inherent spiritual good.

No one has to teach a child to lie; rather, we must go to great lengths to impress upon children the value of telling the truth. Toddlers are naturally selfish, with their innate, although faulty, understanding that everything is “mine.” Sinful behavior comes naturally for the little ones because they are born sinners.

Because we are born sinners, we must experience a second, spiritual birth. We are born once into Adam’s family and are sinners by nature. When we are born again, we are born into God’s family and are given the nature of Christ. We praise the Lord that “to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent . . . but born of God” (John 1:12–13).

 

[1stCenturyLady]

What is the Biblical proof for that?

also need Biblical proof for this statement.

Romans 3:
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

A child needs to be old enough to be taught. Once taught, they have knowledge and we all have free will.

Romans 3:
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Because Adam disobeyed God, and obeyed Satan, all his descendants have the nature of Satan.

This is why Jesus who was conceived with the seed of His Father God, never sinned. He had the nature of His Father. And this is why descendants of Adam who have a sin nature MUST be born again. Our sin nature must be changed into a nature like His, and that is through the seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 2 Peter 1:3-4 "3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Sin is imputed to all humans.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

I agree. That man was Adam.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I agree. That man was Adam.

What do you do with the verses that say humans are born in sin, as I have shown in the article?

Many people do not understand how much sin infilitrates the entire human.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

The heart is (thoughts, mind) are so sinful that people do not even know it.

So with your logic, that babies are born without sin, says that humans are born sinless.

Only Christ was ever sinless.

And you do not see an issue with that?

Romans 3:
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

A child needs to be old enough to be taught. Once taught, they have knowledge and we all have free will.

Romans 3:
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Because Adam disobeyed God, and obeyed Satan, all his descendants have the nature of Satan.

This is why Jesus who was conceived with the seed of His Father God, never sinned. He had the nature of His Father. And this is why descendants of Adam who have a sin nature MUST be born again. Our sin nature must be changed into a nature like His, and that is through the seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 2 Peter 1:3-4 "3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

That is really bad theology.

Jesus Christ was God come in the flesh Jesus was not conceived.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This is why Jesus who was conceived with the seed of His Father God, never sinned. He had the nature of His Father. And this is why descendants of Adam who have a sin nature MUST be born again. Our sin nature must be changed into a nature like His, and that is through the seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 2 Peter 1:3-4 "3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

So with your logic, that babies are born without sin, says that humans are born sinless.

I never said that. I never used the word sinless, but sanctified.

There were nursing infants in the Old Testament that God commanded to also be thrust through with a sword along with their mothers. Why if they were sinless? Again, I never said that.

Jesus Christ was God come in the flesh Jesus was not conceived.

What do you call how Mary became pregnant and by whom? Was Mary also God?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Only Christ was ever sinless.

Aren't we sinless when we are born again of the Spirit? What does it mean to be "conformed to the image of His Son" Romans 8:29.

You also best study 1 John 3:9 to correct your theology.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[Scott Downey]

Your born again of God spirit that God creates in you was made in righteousness and holiness and does not sin, which is why we have eternal life.
When we sin, our sin is related to the part of us still dead, the body, and the soul is tied to the mind, and the mind can be ruled by the flesh or by the spirit. We must be spiritually minded which is life and peace with God and that pleases Him. Those carnally minded are sinning.
Part of this has to do with our rewards from God or the lack of them.

We can therefore still sin as we are body, soul, spirit together. Only our spirit does not sin.
The body is dead because of sin, Romans 8.

Hebrews 9, the sin He put away for us who believe, we have eternal life. But the rewards we get from Him, Christ says He will give to everyone according to their works.

Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice​

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be [j]purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I never said that. I never used the word sinless, but sanctified.

There were nursing infants in the Old Testament that God commanded to also be thrust through with a sword along with their mothers. Why if they were sinless? Again, I never said that.



What do you call how Mary became pregnant and by whom? Was Mary also God?

What do you call how Mary became pregnant and by whom? Was Mary also God?

Mary was a sinner in need of a savior.

Luke 1:47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

I never said that. I never used the word sinless, but sanctified.

Where is that in th Bible?

I assumed you meant sinless, because if they are not born in sin, then they are sinless.

Being sanctified, what does that mean to you, set apart?

For what?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Aren't we sinless when we are born again of the Spirit? What does it mean to be "conformed to the image of His Son" Romans 8:29.

You also best study 1 John 3:9 to correct your theology.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Do you believe as a Christian you have no sin, you are sinless as Christ?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Romans 3:
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

A child needs to be old enough to be taught. Once taught, they have knowledge and we all have free will.

Romans 3:
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Because Adam disobeyed God, and obeyed Satan, all his descendants have the nature of Satan.

This is why Jesus who was conceived with the seed of His Father God, never sinned. He had the nature of His Father. And this is why descendants of Adam who have a sin nature MUST be born again. Our sin nature must be changed into a nature like His, and that is through the seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 2 Peter 1:3-4 "3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I do believe that babies that die in birth or in the womb are taken to heaven.

Summary
All children who die before they reach the condition (not age) of accountability by which they convincingly understand their sin and corruption and embrace the Gospel by faith are graciously saved eternally by God through the work of Jesus Christ being elect by sovereign choice, innocent of willful sin, rebellion and unbelief by which works they would be justly condemned to eternal punishment.

Background
1. Life begins at conception and these babies have eternal souls
2. Based on Psalm 139, God a) knows everything about me even before I can talk b) God is in complete control of my life c) God will never lose sight of me no matter what goes on. I can never be lost to God d) There is no circumstance that can in any way limit His knowledge e) The reason He knows me so well is He is my personal creator who has planned carefully my destiny.
3) Both Job and Solomon, in Job 3:1, 16-17 and Ecclesiastes 6 respectively, imply that babies who die young go immediately to a peaceful place (heaven)

At what age are children considered accountable?
There isn’t an age threshold, but rather a condition that matters. Those who have not reached sufficient mature understanding in order to comprehend convincingly the issues of law and grace, sin and salvation are not accountable (Deuteronomy 1:39, Isaiah 7:16)

Are all children sinners?
Yes, all are sinful from conception (Psalm 51:5, 58:3, 143:2; Romans 5) or there wouldn’t be any basis for death

What implications does this truth of depravity have on the issue of dying infants? Salvation is by grace just like it is for adults. Adults have no more merit in their salvation than a child who God saves by grace. It is God’s choice

What about infant baptism?
Infant baptism isn’t Biblical and has nothing to do with a child’s salvation

If infants are saved when they die, by what means are they saved?
They are saved by the sacrificial work of Jesus because that is the only means that anybody can be saved. God has predestined all He wills into salvation, including those in infancy. That salvation is by His sovereign choice through grace alone though all infants deserve eternal judgment because of their guilt and corruption. Their sins were paid for by the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on the cross in which He bore the wrath of God not only for all who could believe, but for all who could not believe. MacArthur points Charles Spurgeon and BB Warfield as supporters of this view

What does Scripture teach about damnation?
Scripture always, always connects eternal condemnation to the sinner’s deeds and the greatest sin is unbelief (Revelation 20:11-12, John 8:21, 24; 3:36). There is no place in the Bible where judgment is based on any other grounds than the deeds of sin. It’s true they’re sinful by nature, but the account against them that condemns them is their deeds. God doesn’t charge people with actual sins until they commit them.

Conclusion
Children are born sinners. Their death proves that. But never being able to understand the truth and therefore consciously rejected and choose rebellion, they have no record against them in the books of God and they then constitute a marvelous and vast opportunity for sovereign grace to operate apart from any works at all. Salvation is by grace completely apart from works. Damnation is by works completely apart from grace. Infants have no sinful works to fill the books and condemn them. So if a baby dies, that baby is elect and instantly goes to heaven to eternal salvation and eternal glory.

If you have a little one that dies, rejoice. Count not your human loss, count your eternal gain. Count not that child as having lost, but having gained, having passed briefly through this life untouched by the wicked world only to enter into eternal glory and grace. The true sadness should be over those children of yours who live and reject the Gospel. Don’t sorrow over your children in heaven, sorrow over your children on earth that they should come to Christ. This is your great responsibility, your great opportunity.
Notes from a sermon by John Macarthur

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mary was a sinner in need of a savior.

Luke 1:47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

The Bible does tell us that Mary had a Savior just like the rest of us (Luke 1:47).

However, the difference is that saving grace was applied to her when she was conceived. Unlike the rest of us, it was completed in her. We’re still being worked on (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14). Because it's a process - our sanctification will be completed when we die.

- The Bible tell us that we are saved when we come to Christ (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8).
- However, because Salvation is a lifelong process – it also that we are being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
- It also says that because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it also says that we are will be saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).

Luke's Gospel uses the Greek word kecharitomene (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result. So, it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a title – a name.
The Angel didn’t call her, “Mary, full of grace” , or “favored one”.
He said, “Hail, Kecharitomene.”

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Where is that in th Bible?

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 1 Corinthians 7

What does unclean mean?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 1 Corinthians 7

What does unclean mean?

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband. For otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.


Robertson and Plummer on sanctified through which is more literally sanctified in (en) - Note the ἐν (en) in both cases; the Christian partner is the sphere in which the sanctification takes place, and the heathen partner may be influenced by that sphere.


sanctified. This does not refer to salvation; otherwise the spouse would not be spoken of as unbelieving. The sanctification is matrimonial and familial, not personal or spiritual, and means that the unsaved partner is set apart for temporal blessing because the other partner belongs to God. One Christian in a marriage brings grace that spills over on the spouse—even possibly leading him or her to salvation.

children … are holy. The Christian need not separate from an unbeliever because of fear that the unbelieving spouse may defile the children. God promises the opposite. They would be unclean if both parents were unsaved, but the presence of one believing parent exposes the children to blessing and brings them protection. The presence of even one Christian parent will protect children from undue spiritual harm and they will receive many blessings, and often that includes salvation.

 

[Scott Downey]

I do believe that babies that die in birth or in the womb are taken to heaven.

Summary
All children who die before they reach the condition (not age) of accountability by which they convincingly understand their sin and corruption and embrace the Gospel by faith are graciously saved eternally by God through the work of Jesus Christ being elect by sovereign choice, innocent of willful sin, rebellion and unbelief by which works they would be justly condemned to eternal punishment.

Background
1. Life begins at conception and these babies have eternal souls
2. Based on Psalm 139, God a) knows everything about me even before I can talk b) God is in complete control of my life c) God will never lose sight of me no matter what goes on. I can never be lost to God d) There is no circumstance that can in any way limit His knowledge e) The reason He knows me so well is He is my personal creator who has planned carefully my destiny.
3) Both Job and Solomon, in Job 3:1, 16-17 and Ecclesiastes 6 respectively, imply that babies who die young go immediately to a peaceful place (heaven)

At what age are children considered accountable?
There isn’t an age threshold, but rather a condition that matters. Those who have not reached sufficient mature understanding in order to comprehend convincingly the issues of law and grace, sin and salvation are not accountable (Deuteronomy 1:39, Isaiah 7:16)

Are all children sinners?
Yes, all are sinful from conception (Psalm 51:5, 58:3, 143:2; Romans 5) or there wouldn’t be any basis for death

What implications does this truth of depravity have on the issue of dying infants? Salvation is by grace just like it is for adults. Adults have no more merit in their salvation than a child who God saves by grace. It is God’s choice

What about infant baptism?
Infant baptism isn’t Biblical and has nothing to do with a child’s salvation

If infants are saved when they die, by what means are they saved?
They are saved by the sacrificial work of Jesus because that is the only means that anybody can be saved. God has predestined all He wills into salvation, including those in infancy. That salvation is by His sovereign choice through grace alone though all infants deserve eternal judgment because of their guilt and corruption. Their sins were paid for by the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on the cross in which He bore the wrath of God not only for all who could believe, but for all who could not believe. MacArthur points Charles Spurgeon and BB Warfield as supporters of this view

What does Scripture teach about damnation?
Scripture always, always connects eternal condemnation to the sinner’s deeds and the greatest sin is unbelief (Revelation 20:11-12, John 8:21, 24; 3:36). There is no place in the Bible where judgment is based on any other grounds than the deeds of sin. It’s true they’re sinful by nature, but the account against them that condemns them is their deeds. God doesn’t charge people with actual sins until they commit them.

Conclusion
Children are born sinners. Their death proves that. But never being able to understand the truth and therefore consciously rejected and choose rebellion, they have no record against them in the books of God and they then constitute a marvelous and vast opportunity for sovereign grace to operate apart from any works at all. Salvation is by grace completely apart from works. Damnation is by works completely apart from grace. Infants have no sinful works to fill the books and condemn them. So if a baby dies, that baby is elect and instantly goes to heaven to eternal salvation and eternal glory.

If you have a little one that dies, rejoice. Count not your human loss, count your eternal gain. Count not that child as having lost, but having gained, having passed briefly through this life untouched by the wicked world only to enter into eternal glory and grace. The true sadness should be over those children of yours who live and reject the Gospel. Don’t sorrow over your children in heaven, sorrow over your children on earth that they should come to Christ. This is your great responsibility, your great opportunity.
Notes from a sermon by John Macarthur

15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were [a]indignant 16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?”

And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read,

‘Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise’?”
17 Then He left them and went out of the city to Bethany, and He lodged there.

 

[Verily]

The Bible does tell us that Mary had a Savior just like the rest of us (Luke 1:47).

However, the difference is that saving grace was applied to her when she was conceived. Unlike the rest of us, it was completed in her. We’re still being worked on (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14). Because it's a process - our sanctification will be completed when we die.

- The Bible tell us that we are saved when we come to Christ (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8).
- However, because Salvation is a lifelong process – it also that we are being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
- It also says that because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it also says that we are will be saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).

Luke's Gospel uses the Greek word kecharitomene (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result. So, it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a title – a name.
The Angel didn’t call her, “Mary, full of grace” , or “favored one”.
He said, “Hail, Kecharitomene.”

Why would she have to offer a sin offering, for example

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons

Lev 12:26 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female. And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

Which Mary did according to the law of her that hath born a male or female here

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Despite giving birth to the Lamb of God

 

[1stCenturyLady]

They would be unclean if both parents were unsaved

I agree.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Why would she have to offer a sin offering, for example

She is under the Law.

 

[Verily]

She is under the Law.

Ofcourse she was

Gal 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Does't the RC teach that Mary was basically without sin so the Son of God wouldn't be infected (somehow) by a diseased womb of sin, or some sort of thing like that?

Because I dont think the sin offering was for the child (obviously) being the Son of God in this instance.

Mary needing to be attoned for would mean that she was not sinless

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why would she have to offer a sin offering, for example

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons

Lev 12:26 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female. And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

Which Mary did according to the law of her that hath born a male or female here

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Despite giving birth to the Lamb of God

The answeris rtght there in YOUR post:
"According to the Law."

Mary was a faithful Jew and did what was required of EVEEY person. Circumcision was how one entered into the Covenant woth God (Gen. 17:10). Why was Jesus circumcised?
Answer: Because it was required by the Law.