The Doctrines of Grace

[Verily]

The answeris rtght there in YOUR post:
"According to the Law."

Mary was a faithful Jew and did what was required of EVEEY person.

I do know this, but it is for a sin offering, and it just shows she was not without sin.

Circumcision was how one entered into the Covenant woth God (Gen. 17:10). Why was Jesus circumcised?
Answer: Because it was required by the Law.

Lev 12:1-4 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.

Exactly, she had him circumcised. The law of Moses said that a woman who brought forth a male child would be unclean for seven days and then have her son circumcised on the eighth day. She had to continue in the blood of her purifying for thirty three days and then she could come into the sanctuary and offer her firstborn as holy unto the Lord (Exo 13:2).

Which according to Luke this is exactly what happened as it relates to Mary giving birth to Jesus.

Luke 2:21-24 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. And when the days of purifcation according to the law of Moses were accomplished , they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord); And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons."

Unclean for seven days.
Male child circumcised the eighth day
The days of her purifcation were accomplished (thirty three days of the blood of her purifying) she brought Jesus to the temple to present Him to the Lord.

From what I understand in various other discussions surrounding Mary was that she is considered set apart in some way, as being born without sin, and did not need to be atoned for, as they do claim.

Which Mary did according to the law of her that hath born a male or female here for a sin offering

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Why would she have to offer a sin offering, for example

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons

Lev 12:26 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female. And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

Which Mary did according to the law of her that hath born a male or female here

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Despite giving birth to the Lamb of God

Do you remember what Jesus told John the Baptist when He came to be baptized by John?

 

[Verily]

Do you remember what Jesus told John the Baptist when He came to be baptized by John?

Yes, "that it becometh us to fulful all righteousness", which when it come to Jesus Christ John knew better that he did not need a baptism unto repentance because he was without sin. But I do not believe that to be true in Mary's case (seeing She is not Messiah). The argument typically goes (from what I can draw from the backs and forths of it) is that somehow Mary's mother was kept from sin or made sinless so Mary could be without sin to bring forth Jesus Christ, something to that effect, which I do not understand because Mary did not even know she would be chosen to do so. But on the other hand if that were true (as the reasoning might go) than Mary's own mother could have died for our sins and there would be no need for either either Mary or our Savior. This could have been possible with man (or woman, rather).

It was definately a generic following of the proceedure of the law in such a case, and Jesus did the very same, and John did forbid him at the first (and understandly so). There is no record of anyone fordidding Mary from doing so, and there shouldnt be. Because as with John the Bapist, who was called according to Gods purposes, says, He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. He expresses the sense of his own unworthiness. And despite the fact he had the Holy Ghost from His mothers womb says to Jesus, "I have need to be baptized of thee".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes, "that it becometh us to fulful all righteousness", which when it come to Jesus Christ John knew better that he did not need a baptism unto repentance because he was without sin. But I do not believe that to be true in Mary's case (seeing She is not Messiah). The argument typically goes (from what I can draw from the backs and forths of it) is that somehow Mary's mother was kept from sin or made sinless so Mary could be without sin to bring forth Jesus Christ, something to that effect, which I do not understand because Mary did not even know she would be chosen to do so. But on the other hand if that were true (as the reasoning might go) than Mary's own mother could have died for our sins and there would be no need for either either Mary or our Savior. This could have been possible with man (or woman, rather).

It was definately a generic following of the proceedure of the law in such a case, and Jesus did the very same, and John did forbid him at the first (and understandly so). There is no record of anyone fordidding Mary from doing so, and there shouldnt be. Because as with John the Bapist, who was called according to Gods purposes, says, He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. He expresses the sense of his own unworthiness. And despite the fact he had the Holy Ghost from His mothers womb says to Jesus, "I have need to be baptized of thee".

There is no scripture that says that Mary was without sin, it is merely human reasoning, not of the Spirit. What Catholics do not understand is about the "Seed" of the Father. Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ." We understand even more when those of us who are born again of the Spirit are born from the Seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

We all sinned before being born again, and this is who Jesus said that we MUST be born again of the Spirit. There are those who claim that only Jesus never sinned or ever will sin. They know nothing of the promise that we are to be conformed into the image of Christ. Romans 8:29. This is now. Other false human beliefs are that we will always sin (even those born again of the Spirit) till be die and shed these bodies. Wrong. What is born again of the Spirit for eternal life is our spirit and soul. The body is like a floppy puppet and only reacts to its nature. The sin that Jesus took out of us was the sin in our nature. Another false human reasoning based on their experience. No, Jesus cleansed our nature. Jesus we still have our own will power, thus the warnings from the apostles. Remember Adam was not born with a sin nature, just free will. His willful sin cause all mankind to inherit that sin into their nature. Thus the reason why we had to be born again of the Spirit to have sin taken out of our nature.

 

[Verily]

There is no scripture that says that Mary was without sin, it is merely human reasoning, not of the Spirit.

I know this and you know this but that is why I was asking Breadoflife concerning these things and what his/her take on this might be,

What Catholics do not understand is about the "Seed" of the Father. Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ." We understand even more when those of us who are born again of the Spirit are born from the Seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

We all sinned before being born again, and this is who Jesus said that we MUST be born again of the Spirit. There are those who claim that only Jesus never sinned or ever will sin. They know nothing of the promise that we are to be conformed into the image of Christ. Romans 8:29. This is now. Other false human beliefs are that we will always sin (even those born again of the Spirit) till be die and shed these bodies. Wrong. What is born again of the Spirit for eternal life is our spirit and soul. The body is like a floppy puppet and only reacts to its nature. The sin that Jesus took out of us was the sin in our nature. Another false human reasoning based on their experience. No, Jesus cleansed our nature. Jesus we still have our own will power, thus the warnings from the apostles. Remember Adam was not born with a sin nature, just free will. His willful sin cause all mankind to inherit that sin into their nature. Thus the reason why we had to be born again of the Spirit to have sin taken out of our nature.

The effect of grace itself is that sin has no dominion over you

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

What did Paul say about when ye were the servants of sin?

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

What else did Jesus say about this?

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

What did Paul confirm about this?

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness

The grace of God is effectual

Sin shall not have dominion over us under grace

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

Jesus is not the minister of sin

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[PinSeeker]

I am not familar with all the doctrines out there, and I had to "ask what is this tulip and what are the five points of it. I have no clue. I never know what thing is summed up under what thing. But here it says one of them is

Limited Atonement: Jesus Christ’s death on the cross was specifically designed to atone for the sins of the elect, and not for all humanity.

John is the elect and he writes

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Verily, there is absolutely a sense in which Jesus's sacrifice was for the whole world, and that is sufficiency. Jesus's atonement for sin was sufficient for any and all of the human race to be reconciled to God and thus saved. In this way, Jesus's sacrifice is unlimited and universal.

But there is also a sense in which Jesus's sacrifice was for only a limited number of people, and that is efficacy. Jesus's atonement is only efficacious for those whom God, before the foundation of the world chose to be conformed to the image of His Son. In this way, Jesus's atonement is limited and not universal.

All humans will eventually sin at some point after birth, but no one is born a sinner.

Hmmm, well if the person is not born a sinner, then how will he or she eventually sin? <smile> The explanation here is similar to the explanation directly above. Yes, we can say that one is not a ____-er if he or she has not ___ed yet, but in saying we are sinners, the Bible is speaking of one's propensity to sin... the sinful nature... regardless of whether one has actually sinned or not. So there are two senses in which to look at this, but the latter is the Biblical definition of a sinner. You are right in saying all humans will eventually sin at some point after birth, but this is because we are sinners from birth; our nature ~ the state of our heart, which is what matters in God's economy ~ is such from birth.

All die because all sin; not because we're born sinners.

[Rom 5:12 NASB95] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--​

Interesting. What Paul is saying here, FearTheLord, is that we are all ~ in the spiritual sense ~ born dead. And remember what this same Paul says in Ephesians 2 regarding those of us who have been saved:

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved..." (Ephesians 2:1-5)​

David's birth was his mother's iniquity, not his own.

Both, actually. See above. And it was his and his mother's sinful nature, which they both inherited ~ as did we all ~ from our first father, Adam, which he acquired in the events described in Genesis 3. This is the sinful nature that we are all born with... and thus guilt of sin; this is the human condition... that entered into the world through one man (Adam). Not Adam's particular sin, but the state that he fell into in Genesis 3.

So, which is it? Do you loathe sin. Or do you still have to deal with the desire?

Yes. :)

Grace and peace to all of you.

 

[Verily]

Verily, there is absolutely a sense in which Jesus's sacrifice was for the whole world, and that is sufficiency. Jesus's atonement for sin was sufficient for any and all of the human race to be reconciled to God and thus saved. In this way, Jesus's sacrifice is unlimited and universal.

But there is also a sense in which Jesus's sacrifice was for only a limited number of people, and that is efficacy. Jesus's atonement is only efficacious for those whom God, before the foundation of the world chose to be conformed to the image of His Son. In this way, Jesus's atonement is limited and not universal.

It does say save his people

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

But it also says,

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

And so as John says,

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And so not theirs only, as its written

Romans 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Romans 3:30 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

In Christ Jesus these which were sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Both having access by one Spirit unto the Father.

 

[FearTheLord]

Hmmm, well if the person is not born a sinner, then how will he or she eventually sin? <smile> The explanation here is similar to the explanation directly above. Yes, we can say that one is not a ____-er if he or she has not ___ed yet, but in saying we are sinners, the Bible is speaking of one's propensity to sin... the sinful nature... regardless of whether one has actually sinned or not. So there are two senses in which to look at this, but the latter is the Biblical definition of a sinner. You are right in saying all humans will eventually sin at some point after birth, but this is because we are sinners from birth; our nature ~ the state of our heart, which is what matters in God's economy ~ is such from birth.

So did God created Adam and Eve as sinners? They both sinned didn't they?

Interesting. What Paul is saying here, FearTheLord, is that we are all ~ in the spiritual sense ~ born dead.

No one is born spiritually dead.

[Rom 7:9 NASB95] 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;​

And remember what this same Paul says in Ephesians 2 regarding those of us who have been saved:

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved..." (Ephesians 2:1-5)

Yes, and it is by following the course of the world that we become sinners. This is not the same thing as being born spiritually dead or as a sinner.

Both, actually. See above. And it was his and his mother's sinful nature, which they both inherited ~ as did we all ~ from our first father, Adam, which he acquired in the events described in Genesis 3. This is the sinful nature that we are all born with... and thus guilt of sin; this is the human condition... that entered into the world through one man (Adam). Not Adam's particular sin, but the state that he fell into in Genesis 3.

As you can see from my response above, the Bible doesn't actually teach that we are born spiritually dead or as sinners. It is through following the course of the world that we die and become slaves to sin. The only condition we inherit from Adam is physiological mortality, which tempts us is to sin through the fear of death.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do know this, but it is for a sin offering, and it just shows she was not without sin.



Lev 12:1-4 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.

Exactly, she had him circumcised. The law of Moses said that a woman who brought forth a male child would be unclean for seven days and then have her son circumcised on the eighth day. She had to continue in the blood of her purifying for thirty three days and then she could come into the sanctuary and offer her firstborn as holy unto the Lord (Exo 13:2).

Which according to Luke this is exactly what happened as it relates to Mary giving birth to Jesus.

Luke 2:21-24 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. And when the days of purifcation according to the law of Moses were accomplished , they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord); And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons."

Unclean for seven days.
Male child circumcised the eighth day
The days of her purifcation were accomplished (thirty three days of the blood of her purifying) she brought Jesus to the temple to present Him to the Lord.

From what I understand in various other discussions surrounding Mary was that she is considered set apart in some way, as being born without sin, and did not need to be atoned for, as they do claim.

Which Mary did according to the law of her that hath born a male or female here for a sin offering

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Why do you keep repeating yourself? I already acknowledged that Mary did all of these things – according to the Law. Just as Jesus observed all of the festivals, holy days and rituals according to the Law that pointed to HIM – even though He is not bound by the Law, created for mere men.

God can and DOES make exceptions.

Scripture tells us that ALL people are appointed to die ONCE (Heb. 9:47). Why didn’t anybody tell that to Lazarus (John 11:38-44) - and the Jairus’s daughter (Mark 5:21-43)?

 

[Verily]

Why do you keep repeating yourself?

I added more in and followed it by by saying

From what I understand in various other discussions surrounding Mary was that she is considered set apart in some way, as being born without sin, and did not need to be atoned for, as they do claim.

See the words "other discussions" and the "they do claim" there?

Its about what they acknowledged not you there

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes. :)

Interesting. You chose both.

 

[PinSeeker]

It does say save his people

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

But it also says,

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

I certainly don't mean to offend, Verily, but you're conflating a couple of things here. I'll just focus on your citation of John 1:12 and continue what John says there in verse 13, which is a continuation from verse 12... "...to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Paul says this very thing in Roman 9, that "(God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." So, belief depends on being born (again) not by the will of man but of God. Remember what Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3, that "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." And remember what Jesus says to two different groups of Jews in John 8 ~ "If God were your Father, you would love me... Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires." ~ and John 10 ~ "I told you, and you do not believe... you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." Regarding John 10:26 specifically, Jesus does not say, "you are not among my sheep because you do not believe, but rather "you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." here and cite a couple of things:

And so as John says,

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yes, no one is ineligible. Everyone is eligible regardless of ethnicity. God can certainly have mercy and compassion on all if He wants to, because Jesus's atonement is sufficient to save everyone, and unlimited in that sense, as I said. But again, God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." And implicit in that statement is that there are some on whom He will not have mercy or compassion. And, in the words of Psalm 1, "...the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; for the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish."

Grace and peace to you, Verily.

 

[PinSeeker]

Interesting. You chose both.

Hmmm... chose both of... what?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Verily]

I certainly don't mean to offend, Verily, but you're conflating a couple of things here. I'll just focus on your citation of John 1:12 and continue what John says there in verse 13, which is a continuation from verse 12... "...to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Paul says this very thing in Roman 9, that "(God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." So, belief depends on being born (again) not by the will of man but of God. Remember what Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3, that "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." And remember what Jesus says to two different groups of Jews in John 8 ~ "If God were your Father, you would love me... Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires." ~ and John 10 ~ "I told you, and you do not believe... you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." Regarding John 10:26 specifically, Jesus does not say, "you are not among my sheep because you do not believe, but rather "you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." here and cite a couple of things:


Yes, no one is ineligible. Everyone is eligible regardless of ethnicity. God can certainly have mercy and compassion on all if He wants to, because Jesus's atonement is sufficient to save everyone, and unlimited in that sense, as I said. But again, God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." And implicit in that statement is that there are some on whom He will not have mercy or compassion. And, in the words of Psalm 1, "...the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; for the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish."

Grace and peace to you, Verily.

Well how do the verses I share contradict the other verses, not sure I am catching what the problem is

 

[PinSeeker]

So did God created Adam and Eve as sinners?

No. They became sinners. As I said, they acquired the sinful nature in Genesis 3, and everyone since has inherited that state at birth.

They both sinned didn't they?

Yes. But Adam's was the first and greater sin; he knew what God had commanded but disobeyed and partook of the forbidden fruit. Eve on the other hand was deceived, as she tells God in Genesis 3 (and sinned subsequent to Adam) and Paul says in 2 Corinthians 11:3 and 1 Timothy 2:14.

No one is born spiritually dead.

We are all born dead in our sin and must be born again of the Spirit.

...it is by following the course of the world that we become sinners.

It is because we are sinners that we follow the course of the world.

This is not the same thing as being born spiritually dead or as a sinner.

What you said directly above is not, no, I agree, but... sorry... what you said directly above is... inverted, as I clarified.

As you can see from my response above, the Bible doesn't actually teach that we are born spiritually dead or as sinners.

I can see that you think that, yes. <smile>

It is through following the course of the world that we die and become slaves to sin.

It's because we are slaves to sin ~ yes, from birth ~ that we follow the course of the world. We are blind, deaf, mute, and lame to God ~ even children of the devil (!) ~ unless and until we are made slaves to righteousness, and thus sons of God, which is the result our being born again of the Spirit.

The only condition we inherit from Adam is physiological mortality, which tempts us is to sin through the fear of death.

"...sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned..." Paul is not talking about "physiological mortality" there in Romans 5. And he is not saying that at some age one sins and thus becomes a sinner.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well how do the verses I share contradict the other verses, not sure I am catching what the problem is

Hmmm, well the verses you shared don't contradict the other verses; no part of God's Word contradicts any other. Maybe I'm wrong about this, Verily, but I think you think our salvation, our being born again of the Spirit, is the result of our belief. Am I right about your thinking on this? Or not? If so, then I disagree... because the Bible says otherwise... and that's what I was trying to show you.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[FearTheLord]

No. They became sinners. As I said, they acquired the sinful nature in Genesis 3, and everyone since has inherited that state at birth.

There is no sin nature. There is only the mortality of the flesh, which tempts us to sin through the fear of death. In like manner to Adam, we are born without sin; the difference is we quickly capitulate to the fear of death due to our mortal condition.

We are all born dead in our sin and must be born again of the Spirit.

I've already shown you from Romans 7 that this is not the case. You're siding with your theology over scripture at this point.

 

[Verily]

Hmmm, well the verses you shared don't contradict the other verses; no part of God's Word contradicts any other. Maybe I'm wrong about this, Verily, but I think you think our salvation, our being born again of the Spirit, is the result of our belief. Am I right about your thinking on this? Or not? If so, then I disagree... because the Bible says otherwise... and that's what I was trying to show you.

Grace and peace to you.

Looking back at the points of your post and bringing those back into the verses posted they seem very much to agree together, for example.

I posted

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I bring back in the additional verse you posted behind it, that you felt I missed here

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

When it even says here concerning whoever believes is born of God

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

And you can bring the same thing around again this way showing both the mercy of God and four times it hits on the Gentiles in this context

Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Rom 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Or begin again this way

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then Jesus says,

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

These given one Spirit to drink

The Gentile world is the rest of the world

1John 2:22 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And so we can say here,

Romans 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people .

Jesus being a minister of the circumcision, sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (that fold) and other sheep not of that fold (but of the Gentiles)

Ephes 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephes 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I find them very confirming, oftentmes you can move around the verses to confirm the same line of reasoning in other places without doing violence to the context. I did not see any there, I try to be careful and I could be wrong somewhere but I am not sure I am catching where that could be in these things in the overall picture of belief, His mercy and being born again as it pertains to the two as one fold as it shows in the above.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Thats really bad theology.

I will not convince you with countering, so no use trying.

So, when they were killing babies and God said the babies were innocent... God was telling a lie then?

I've heard what I would call heresy that even after we are born again of the Spirit we are still sinners. That false belief is from the "T" in TULIP. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Yep, we are called to put on Christ - the New Man

What makes us children of God is IF we answer the Father's call to abide in Christ having turned away from our old life of sin and walk with Him in newness of life

Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Ephesians 4:22-24
put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 13:14
put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him:

2 Corinthians 6:17
come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

We are called to cooperate with the Lord, to be co-laboroers with Him. He made us in His Image, so we have free will... the Lord desires for us to willingly choose to turn away from our old life of sin and come abide In Christ and not turn away, ever!

1 Corinthians 3:9
We are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

It's God's work, His power, His ability... but WE have to choose to accept His offer to be His children and turn from darkness to walk with Him in the Light.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Getting born again is the introduction and the starting point and if one truly believes and dies moments after getting born again, yes they would go to Heaven.

But few die immediately after getting born again so it remains to be seen... will WE to choose to accept His offer to be His children and turn from darkness to walk with Him abiding In Him until the end of our lives so that we might be saved???

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Endure to the end as in... DON'T fall away.... chose to keep walking with the Lord and as we continue walking with Him His Spirit empowers us.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Some are.

Nope... when God placed a person in the mother's womb... the Lord did not put sin in to them making them to be born as sinners.

What some are referring to as "sin nature" are the habits we all take on as a result of living in a world full of sin and darkness and habitually they become full of "sin nature" because they live in sin continually walking after the flesh and not after the Spirit.

God did not make anyone to be a sinner when He created them... but satan claims He did

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

We all became sinners after we arrived on Club Earth so God is holding each person accountable for their own sin, not for Adam's sin

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Here again.... death (separation from God) passed upon all men because all have sinned

Those that have been tricked by the devil to believe they were boon sinners are the ones that cannot cease from sin because they believe they cannot help but sin.

Due to following false doctrine rather than what God's Word teaches...these folks don't understand the new birth in Christ Jesus