The Doctrines of Grace

[Dan Clarkston]

These verses show the Lord does NOT hold the children accountable for the sins of the fathers, and as such we are not held accountable for Adam's sins.... because we all committed our own sin.

Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin

Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

2 Kings 14:6
But the sons of the slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin

Ezekiel 18:19
Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Nope... when God placed a person in the mother's womb... the Lord did not put sin in to them making them to be born as sinners.

What some are referring to as "sin nature" are the habits we all take on as a result of living in a world full of sin and darkness and habitually they become full of "sin nature" because they live in sin continually walking after the flesh and not after the Spirit.

God did not make anyone to be a sinner when He created them... but satan claims He did

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

We all became sinners after we arrived on Club Earth so God is holding each person accountable for their own sin, not for Adam's sin

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Here again.... death (separation from God) passed upon all men because all have sinned

Those that have been tricked by the devil to believe they were boon sinners are the ones that cannot cease from sin because they believe they cannot help but sin.

Due to following false doctrine rather than what God's Word teaches...these folks don't understand the new birth in Christ Jesus View attachment 55720

We all became sinners after we arrived on Club Earth

That means humans are born sinless, is that correct?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

What some are referring to as "sin nature" are the habits we all take on as a result of living in a world full of sin and darkness and habitually they become full of "sin nature" because they live in sin continually walking after the flesh and not after the Spirit.

Not after the Spirit? You must be born again to have the Spirit. You're not born with Him straight from your mothers womb.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

These verses show the Lord does NOT hold the children accountable for the sins of the fathers, and as such we are not held accountable for Adam's sins.... because we all committed our own sin.

Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin

Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

2 Kings 14:6
But the sons of the slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin

Ezekiel 18:19
Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself

How do you rationalize why "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." You seem to think that we are capable of never sinning on our own.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I added more in and followed it by by saying

From what I understand in various other discussions surrounding Mary was that she is considered set apart in some way, as being born without sin, and did not need to be atoned for, as they do claim.

See the words "other discussions" and the "they do claim" there?

Its about what they acknowledged not you there

First of all - who is "They"??

Scondly - Mary didn't go around proclaiming herself sinless. She has been proclaimed sinless by the Church based on Scripture (Luke 1:28) and Sacred Tradition. She would have done EVERYTHING that was required of a Jew in the first century - and that inclused rituals, observance of festivals and holy days.

Mary fulfilled the Law which required a sin offering due to ritual uncleanliness due to the fact that she gave birth - and NOT because she "sinned".
Like I tol you before - Jesus was Baptized without having ever sinned. in order to fulfill all rihteousness.
The same id=s true for Mary wuth the sin offering . . .

 

[ElectedbyHim]

First of all - who is "They"??

Scondly - Mary didn't go around proclaiming herself sinless. She has been proclaimed sinless by the Church based on Scripture (Luke 1:28) and Sacred Tradition. She would have done EVERYTHING that was required of a Jew in the first century - and that inclused rituals, observance of festivals and holy days.

Mary fulfilled the Law which required a sin offering due to ritual uncleanliness due to the fact that she gave birth - and NOT because she "sinned".
Like I tol you before - Jesus was Baptized without having ever sinned. in order to fulfill all rihteousness.
The same id=s true for Mary wuth the sin offering . . .

Catholic heretical traditions.

Luke 1:28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

highly favored. Lit. "full of grace"—a term used of all believers in Eph_1:6, where it is translated "accepted." This portrays Mary as a recipient, not a dispenser, of divine grace.

The salutation has been confiscated to form the basis of the familiar Roman Catholic prayer known as the Ave Maria (“Hail Mary”). The erroneous premise of that prayer, based on the Latin Vulgate’s rendering of favored one as gratia plena (“full of grace”), is that Mary has been granted and possesses fullness of grace, which she then bestows on others. In his encyclical Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, Pope Pius X, in a bizarre distortion of truth, has called Mary not the recipient of grace, but the “Dispensatrix [dispenser] of all the gifts that Our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood; the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces; the distributor … of the treasures of His merits.” Pope Leo XIII agreed, declaring in his encyclical Octobri Mense that “Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God.” Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Ineffabilis Deus cited the Catholic Church’s belief that Mary is “the seat of all divine graces … adorned with all gifts of the Holy Spirit … an almost infinite treasury, an inexhaustible abyss of these gifts.” Summing up the Catholic view that Mary is the mediator of all graces Ludwig Ott writes, “Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma [St. Louis: B. Herder, 1954], 209). That false, unbiblical view of Mary is an integral part of the Roman Church’s practice of Mariolatry (the veneration and worship of Mary), which blasphemes the Lord Jesus by worshiping another. In reality Mary was a humble, redeemed sinner. She was not sinless from her conception until her bodily assumption into heaven, as Catholic dogma maintains, since as Jesus Himself declared, “No one is good except God alone” (Luke 18:19; cf. Rom. 3:10). Nor is Mary the co-redeemer of the human race, since sinners are “justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24; cf. 1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:13–14; Heb. 9:12). She does not hear and answer prayers or intercede for anyone, since there is “one mediator … between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). The teaching of Roman Catholicism that “there is no surer or more direct road than by Mary for uniting all mankind in Christ and obtaining through Him the perfect adoption of sons, that we may be holy and immaculate in the sight of God” (Pope Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum) is utterly false and blasphemous. The exalted, quasi-deified Mary of Roman Catholic dogma is far removed from the humble, unassuming “bondslave of the Lord” (Luke 1:38) revealed in Scripture. Gabriel’s pronouncement to Mary, “the Lord is with you,” speaks of God’s enabling of her (cf. Jdg. 6:12). It reinforces the truth that Mary was a recipient of God’s grace, not the dispenser of it to others. Only God gives grace to sinners, as Scripture indicates continually (cf. Ro 3:24; 1 Cor. 1:4; Eph. 2:8, and the repeated use of the phrase “the grace of God”). (Macarthur Luke Commentary)

 

[Verily]

Catholic heredical traditions.

Luke 1:28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

highly favored. Lit. "full of grace"—a term used of all believers in Eph_1:6, where it is translated "accepted." This portrays Mary as a recipient, not a dispenser, of divine grace.

The salutation has been confiscated to form the basis of the familiar Roman Catholic prayer known as the Ave Maria (“Hail Mary”). The erroneous premise of that prayer, based on the Latin Vulgate’s rendering of favored one as gratia plena (“full of grace”), is that Mary has been granted and possesses fullness of grace, which she then bestows on others. In his encyclical Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, Pope Pius X, in a bizarre distortion of truth, has called Mary not the recipient of grace, but the “Dispensatrix [dispenser] of all the gifts that Our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood; the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces; the distributor … of the treasures of His merits.” Pope Leo XIII agreed, declaring in his encyclical Octobri Mense that “Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God.” Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Ineffabilis Deus cited the Catholic Church’s belief that Mary is “the seat of all divine graces … adorned with all gifts of the Holy Spirit … an almost infinite treasury, an inexhaustible abyss of these gifts.” Summing up the Catholic view that Mary is the mediator of all graces Ludwig Ott writes, “Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma [St. Louis: B. Herder, 1954], 209). That false, unbiblical view of Mary is an integral part of the Roman Church’s practice of Mariolatry (the veneration and worship of Mary), which blasphemes the Lord Jesus by worshiping another. In reality Mary was a humble, redeemed sinner. She was not sinless from her conception until her bodily assumption into heaven, as Catholic dogma maintains, since as Jesus Himself declared, “No one is good except God alone” (Luke 18:19; cf. Rom. 3:10). Nor is Mary the co-redeemer of the human race, since sinners are “justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24; cf. 1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:13–14; Heb. 9:12). She does not hear and answer prayers or intercede for anyone, since there is “one mediator … between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). The teaching of Roman Catholicism that “there is no surer or more direct road than by Mary for uniting all mankind in Christ and obtaining through Him the perfect adoption of sons, that we may be holy and immaculate in the sight of God” (Pope Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum) is utterly false and blasphemous. The exalted, quasi-deified Mary of Roman Catholic dogma is far removed from the humble, unassuming “bondslave of the Lord” (Luke 1:38) revealed in Scripture. Gabriel’s pronouncement to Mary, “the Lord is with you,” speaks of God’s enabling of her (cf. Jdg. 6:12). It reinforces the truth that Mary was a recipient of God’s grace, not the dispenser of it to others. Only God gives grace to sinners, as Scripture indicates continually (cf. Ro 3:24; 1 Cor. 1:4; Eph. 2:8, and the repeated use of the phrase “the grace of God”). (Macarthur Luke Commentary)

That's alot of papal BULL right there
(did I use papal bull in the right context?) probably not lol

 

[PinSeeker]

There is no sin nature.

Okay, well, we disagree. These are rhetorical questions, FearTheLord, but if there "is no sin nature," if our nature is not at least partially... <chuckle>... sinful, then why do we sin? If our nature is to not sin ~ even from birth, because babies and very young children sin ~ then why do we sin?

There is only the mortality of the flesh, which tempts us to sin through the fear of death.

Now, I agree with this... at least the first part (up to the comma). The second part... this is a bit tongue-in-cheek, I guess, but okay, so we sin because we are scared of dying? I mean hey, we all know we're going to die one day, but that's not what tempts us to sin... The temptation has to come from outside of us; the devil is the tempter... he tempts us to sin (all the time), and we are susceptible to that temptation, and we succumb to it (again, at least sometimes), because of our sinful nature. Regarding our mortality, this is also a result of the fall of Adam and Eve; what God says to Adam in Genesis 3 applies immediately speaking to Adam and Eve, but also then to all of Adam's progeny: "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you” (to Eve, and to all women going forward)... and “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return” (to Adam, and thus to all men, to all people, going forward.

In like manner to Adam, we are born without sin...

Disagree. Because we have not actually sinned yet does not mean we are without sin. Remember, God told Adam ~ in Genesis 2:17 ~ not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that if he did that he would die, not at some unspoken point years later but in that very day. And die he did, as did Eve... not physically, of course, but they became dead in their sin. And because Adam is the federal head of the human race (and Eve the mother of all the living), this is the condition in which we are all born. Adam's guilt is, even from birth, imputed to... inherited by... us all; we are born dead in sin. This is the natural condition of the human heart from birth. And this is regardless of whether we have actually sinned or not... although, actually, FearTheLord, from God's perspective. from His position outside of time, in what we call "the eternal now," we have. It is in that light that we should read what Paul says in Romans 5:12 that "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned," We are all in need of God's salvation, which can only come from being born again of the Spirit, and therefore with God as our Father, therefore of God, rather than with the devil as our father, and therefore of the devil.

the difference is we quickly capitulate to the fear of death due to our mortal condition.

Hmmm, well, I would say we "capitulate to" ~ cease to resist ~ sin because we are prone to it naturally. You brought up what Paul says in Romans 7, which is interesting; I would point out specifically what he says in Romans 7:17, that speaking of himself even as the Christian that he is, sin dwells within him, and then going on to say in verses 18 and 19 that "(he has) the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out," and "(he does) not do the good (he wants)," and that "the evil (he does) not want is what (he keeps) on doing." And then in verse 20 he even repeats that "sin dwells within (him)." This is the case for all us Christians, that in this life, we will never be free of the sinful nature within us.

And that brings up the greatest "but" in all of Scripture... First, I'll say that beginning in Romans 8, Paul tells us the great news that "(t)here is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus... the law of the Spirit of life has set (us) free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death..." (vv.1-2) and finally that "we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (vv.37-39). How is this possible? Well, we can look at what Paul says in Ephesians 2 (emphasis added, especially on the "but" I'm speaking of... <smile>):

"...(we) were dead in the trespasses and sins in which (we) once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (vv.1-10)​

I've already shown you from Romans 7 that this is not the case.

Well, you think you have, sure. :) Maybe you'll change your mind, in light of what I have written here... But if you don't, if we still disagree, that's okay.

You're siding with your theology over scripture at this point.

Think what you will; I think you are siding with... well, I don't know what, actually, other than just what you've decided on your own. I do think we'd probably agree regarding ~ Scripturally speaking ~ one leaning on his or her own understanding, but that seems to be what you're doing.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Looking back at the points of your post and bringing those back into the verses posted they seem very much to agree together...

Right, but ~ and this was my point ~ oftentimes in Scripture, two verses seem to contradict each other, but one is to be understood in one sense, and the other is to be understood in a different sense, in which case they cannot contradict each other because they are to be understood in different senses... they are in different, even contrasting, contexts. I think you agree with that. I first posted in this thread in response to you regarding some of the things you had posted previously, and what I said was, there is a sense in which Jesus's sacrifice was for the whole world, but also a sense in which Jesus's sacrifice was not for all but for only a limited number of people. Those two statements do not contradict each other, because the senses in which the two statements are made differ. And the reason I said that was that you seemed to be only speaking to the first sense, which has to do with the sufficiency of Christ's atonement to achieve the salvation of all. To put it succinctly, Jesus's atonement for sin was made possible the redemption of all ~ so universal in that sense ~ but accomplished the redemption of only those given to Him by the Father, the Father's elect ~ so limited in that sense.

I posted

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I bring back in the additional verse you posted behind it, that you felt I missed here

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

When it even says here concerning whoever believes is born of God

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

And you can bring the same thing around again this way showing both the mercy of God and four times it hits on the Gentiles in this context

Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Rom 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Or begin again this way

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then Jesus says,

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

These given one Spirit to drink

The Gentile world is the rest of the world

1John 2:22 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And so we can say here,

Romans 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people .

Jesus being a minister of the circumcision, sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (that fold) and other sheep not of that fold (but of the Gentiles)

Ephes 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephes 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I find them very confirming, oftentimes you can move around the verses to confirm the same line of reasoning in other places without doing violence to the context. I did not see any there, I try to be careful and I could be wrong somewhere but I am not sure I am catching where that could be in these things in the overall picture of belief, His mercy and being born again as it pertains to the two as one fold as it shows in the above.

Hmmm... I think we're just missing each other a bit... Some of what you say and point out here I would reply yet again exactly in the same way as I did directly above. I'll pick out your citation here of 1 John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." This is to be understood also in the first sense above ~ the sufficiency of His propitiation to be applied to all ~ and not the second ~ the application of His propitiation, which is only given to God's elect, by His mercy, according to His will. In light of this, I said above and will say again that it seems to me ~ seems ~ that you think our being members of God's elect and thus having received salvation, our and thus our having been born again of the Spirit, is the result of our belief. Do you believe that? If so, then I disagree... because the Bible says otherwise, in many places but nowhere more explicit than what Paul says in Romans 9:14-18; where he's talking specifically about our being members of His elect:

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."​

So yes, we believe, and we made a conscious choice to do so, and we are saved. But we believe ~ and are thus true Jews of God, members of God's Israel, the household of God ~ because He called us and drew us to Himself by His Spirit. This is God's amazing grace. Again Paul says:

"God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10).​

John says it this way, very succinctly:

"We love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).​

​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Catholic heretical traditions.

Luke 1:28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

highly favored. Lit. "full of grace"—a term used of all believers in Eph_1:6, where it is translated "accepted." This portrays Mary as a recipient, not a dispenser, of divine grace.

The salutation has been confiscated to form the basis of the familiar Roman Catholic prayer known as the Ave Maria (“Hail Mary”). The erroneous premise of that prayer, based on the Latin Vulgate’s rendering of favored one as gratia plena (“full of grace”), is that Mary has been granted and possesses fullness of grace, which she then bestows on others. In his encyclical Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, Pope Pius X, in a bizarre distortion of truth, has called Mary not the recipient of grace, but the “Dispensatrix [dispenser] of all the gifts that Our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood; the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces; the distributor … of the treasures of His merits.” Pope Leo XIII agreed, declaring in his encyclical Octobri Mense that “Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God.” Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Ineffabilis Deus cited the Catholic Church’s belief that Mary is “the seat of all divine graces … adorned with all gifts of the Holy Spirit … an almost infinite treasury, an inexhaustible abyss of these gifts.” Summing up the Catholic view that Mary is the mediator of all graces Ludwig Ott writes, “Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma [St. Louis: B. Herder, 1954], 209). That false, unbiblical view of Mary is an integral part of the Roman Church’s practice of Mariolatry (the veneration and worship of Mary), which blasphemes the Lord Jesus by worshiping another. In reality Mary was a humble, redeemed sinner. She was not sinless from her conception until her bodily assumption into heaven, as Catholic dogma maintains, since as Jesus Himself declared, “No one is good except God alone” (Luke 18:19; cf. Rom. 3:10). Nor is Mary the co-redeemer of the human race, since sinners are “justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24; cf. 1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:13–14; Heb. 9:12). She does not hear and answer prayers or intercede for anyone, since there is “one mediator … between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). The teaching of Roman Catholicism that “there is no surer or more direct road than by Mary for uniting all mankind in Christ and obtaining through Him the perfect adoption of sons, that we may be holy and immaculate in the sight of God” (Pope Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum) is utterly false and blasphemous. The exalted, quasi-deified Mary of Roman Catholic dogma is far removed from the humble, unassuming “bondslave of the Lord” (Luke 1:38) revealed in Scripture. Gabriel’s pronouncement to Mary, “the Lord is with you,” speaks of God’s enabling of her (cf. Jdg. 6:12). It reinforces the truth that Mary was a recipient of God’s grace, not the dispenser of it to others. Only God gives grace to sinners, as Scripture indicates continually (cf. Ro 3:24; 1 Cor. 1:4; Eph. 2:8, and the repeated use of the phrase “the grace of God”). (Macarthur Luke Commentary)

WRONG.

The Greek word used in Luke’s Gospel is “Kecharitomene” (Luke 1:28). It is the perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

By comparison, the word used in Ephesians 1:6 and applied to the saints is “charis”. Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a title – a name - similar to when Jacob was called “Israel” by the angel (Gen 32:27-28). Mary is the ONLY person in Scripture who is referred to as “Kecharitomene”.
The angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.”
He said, “Hail, Kecharitomene.”

Jerome translated this title as “Gratia plena” (full of grace).
He could HARDLY write, “Hail, completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, which is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result.”

“Full of grace” was simply the most concise way of explaining the above definition. He probably didn’t think that it would be an issue. Then came the Protestant Revolt . . .

 

[Verily]

Right, but ~ and this was my point ~ oftentimes in Scripture, two verses seem to contradict each other, but one is to be understood in one sense, and the other is to be understood in a different sense, in which case they cannot contradict each other because they are to be understood in different senses... they are in different, even contrasting, contexts. I think you agree with that. I first posted in this thread in response to you regarding some of the things you had posted previously, and what I said was, there is a sense in which Jesus's sacrifice was for the whole world, but also a sense in which Jesus's sacrifice was not for all but for only a limited number of people. Those two statements do not contradict each other, because the senses in which the two statements are made differ. And the reason I said that was that you seemed to be only speaking to the first sense, which has to do with the sufficiency of Christ's atonement to achieve the salvation of all. To put it succinctly, Jesus's atonement for sin was made possible the redemption of all ~ so universal in that sense ~ but accomplished the redemption of only those given to Him by the Father, the Father's elect ~ so limited in that sense.


Hmmm... I think we're just missing each other a bit... Some of what you say and point out here I would reply yet again exactly in the same way as I did directly above. I'll pick out your citation here of 1 John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." This is to be understood also in the first sense above ~ the sufficiency of His propitiation to be applied to all ~ and not the second ~ the application of His propitiation, which is only given to God's elect, by His mercy, according to His will. In light of this, I said above and will say again that it seems to me ~ seems ~ that you think our being members of God's elect and thus having received salvation, our and thus our having been born again of the Spirit, is the result of our belief. Do you believe that? If so, then I disagree... because the Bible says otherwise, in many places but nowhere more explicit than what Paul says in Romans 9:14-18; where he's talking specifically about our being members of His elect:

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."​

So yes, we believe, and we made a conscious choice to do so, and we are saved. But we believe ~ and are thus true Jews of God, members of God's Israel, the household of God ~ because He called us and drew us to Himself by His Spirit. This is God's amazing grace. Again Paul says:

"God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10).​

John says it this way, very succinctly:

"We love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).​

​

Grace and peace to you.

I am still not understanding where the problem lies with the verses I posted or how they contradict some of the verses you posted, so you lost me there.

 

[PinSeeker]

WRONG.

The Greek word used in Luke’s Gospel is “Kecharitomene” (Luke 1:28). It is the perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

That's not the case. It's Hebrew, of course, but the same word is used of Noah in Genesis 6:8... "Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD." The word there is 'חֵן,' or 'ḥēn,' which is also translated to the English 'grace.'

The same Hebrew word is used regarding God's regard of Joseph in Genesis 39:4 and 39:21... and of Moses in Exodus 33:12... and Ruth in Ruth 2... and David in 1 Samuel 1 and 2... The list goes on; Hebrews 11 is glorious. <smile>

Now, I will agree with you that Mary was highly favored in the sense that God chose her as the human vehicle to give birth to His Son and thus be His earthly mother. In this way, Mary was certainly highly favored and given a privilege greater than any other woman who has ever been or ever shall be. But to exalt her to some kind of co-Redeemer status and to pray to or worship her, no. We should certainly all pray for a faith like hers, though, and to know the Lord as she did.

And I'll add this... God's grace, His gifts and calling are perfect and irrevocable (Romans 11:29), both a completed action and an ongoing action being brought to completion at the day of Christ, and thus permanent, for all of us. We are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us, and nothing can possibly separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:37-39)

By comparison, the word used in Ephesians 1:6 and applied to the saints is “charis”. Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a title – a name

Absolutely not. It means rather that the grace Mary was given was outwardly and evidentially greater than any woman before or since... but that should not be understood to then mean God gave Mary more grace than any other woman ~ or person ~ who has been the recipient of God's gifts and calling... any other member of His elect.

similar to when Jacob was called “Israel” by the angel (Gen 32:27-28). Mary is the ONLY person in Scripture who is referred to as “Kecharitomene”.
The angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.”
He said, “Hail, Kecharitomene.”

He called her "highly favored one," saying in effect that she had found great favor in the eyes of the Lord. Just as Noah, Joseph, Ruth, Moses, and David did, as I said above. It is not a "title" of any kind, but a statement of the Lord's regard for her and the calling placed upon her by the Lord.

“Full of grace” was simply the most concise way of explaining the above definition.

Mary was certainly the recipient of grace in great, great measure... God's grace. Again, all of us who are saved, born again of the Spirit, are recipients of this great grace. But to be the earthly mother to the Son of God...

Then came the Protestant Revolt . . .

<chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, BOL.

 

[PinSeeker]

I am still not understanding where the problem lies with the verses I posted or how they contradict some of the verses you posted, so you lost me there.

Fair enough. Grace and peace to you.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

WRONG.

The Greek word used in Luke’s Gospel is “Kecharitomene” (Luke 1:28). It is the perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

By comparison, the word used in Ephesians 1:6 and applied to the saints is “charis”. Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a title – a name - similar to when Jacob was called “Israel” by the angel (Gen 32:27-28). Mary is the ONLY person in Scripture who is referred to as “Kecharitomene”.
The angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.”
He said, “Hail, Kecharitomene.”

Jerome translated this title as “Gratia plena” (full of grace).
He could HARDLY write, “Hail, completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, which is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result.”

“Full of grace” was simply the most concise way of explaining the above definition. He probably didn’t think that it would be an issue. Then came the Protestant Revolt . . .

Whatever.

Believe as you will.

I will stick with the word of God.

Nowhere does it say Mary was sinless, she was a dirty rotten wretched sinner like all humans, except Jesus.

 

[Verily]

Fair enough. Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace to you as well Pinseeker

 

[FearTheLord]

so we sin because we are scared of dying? I mean hey, we all know we're going to die one day, but that's not what tempts us to sin...

According to the scriptures, the fear of dead is at least the vulnerability that the devil exploits in us to lure us into sin. I think this is more than just a superficial fear of dying. I mean the body can't distinguish between cognitive dissonance and a real mortal threat. So, I understand the fear of death as a life governed by psychological defense mechanisms. Such an individual is fairly easy to manipulate, especially for the devil.

[Heb 2:14-15 NASB95] 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.​

The temptation has to come from outside of us; the devil is the tempter... he tempts us to sin (all the time), and we are susceptible to that temptation, and we succumb to it (again, at least sometimes), because of our sinful nature.

Exactly, so there's really no need for a "sin nature." There is only a susceptibility that the devil exploits.

Disagree. Because we have not actually sinned yet does not mean we are without sin. Remember, God told Adam ~ in Genesis 2:17 ~ not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that if he did that he would die, not at some unspoken point years later but in that very day. And die he did, as did Eve... not physically, of course, but they became dead in their sin. And because Adam is the federal head of the human race (and Eve the mother of all the living), this is the condition in which we are all born. Adam's guilt is, even from birth, imputed to... inherited by... us all; we are born dead in sin. This is the natural condition of the human heart from birth. And this is regardless of whether we have actually sinned or not... although, actually, FearTheLord, from God's perspective. from His position outside of time, in what we call "the eternal now," we have. It is in that light that we should read what Paul says in Romans 5:12 that "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned," We are all in need of God's salvation, which can only come from being born again of the Spirit, and therefore with God as our Father, therefore of God, rather than with the devil as our father, and therefore of the devil.

You're making a lot of assumptions here that really aren't in the scriptures. What does Romans 5:12 actually say? It says, "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." It does not say because all were born sinners, or because all were born with a sin nature, or because all were born with the guilt of Adam's sin.

We need to be careful to stick to what the word says, and not let our imagination run free with false dogmas.

I would point out specifically what he says in Romans 7:17, that speaking of himself even as the Christian that he is, sin dwells within him, and then going on to say in verses 18 and 19 that "(he has) the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out," and "(he does) not do the good (he wants)," and that "the evil (he does) not want is what (he keeps) on doing." And then in verse 20 he even repeats that "sin dwells within (him)." This is the case for all us Christians, that in this life, we will never be free of the sinful nature within us.

This goes completely against the context of Romans 7 and contradicts everything written in Romans 6 & 8. Yes, Paul was utilizing the present tense, but context should make it clear that he was using this in a rhetorical way. And BTW, the Old Testament has a lot of future prophecies spoken in the past tense. This is more obvious when you read a literal translation. So, if tense is your only argument, then you need to reinterpret a lot of the Old Testament as well.

And that brings up the greatest "but" in all of Scripture... First, I'll say that beginning in Romans 8, Paul tells us the great news that "(t)here is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...

Right, and we remain in Christ through obedience to his commandments, which implies maintenance is needed.

[1Jo 3:23-24 NASB95] 23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

[Jhn 15:10 NASB95] 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.​

Well, you think you have, sure. :) Maybe you'll change your mind, in light of what I have written here... But if you don't, if we still disagree, that's okay.

It's not ok for Christians to agree to disagree on fundamental issues like these, and you have not provided sufficient evidence for me to justify changing my position.

 

[PinSeeker]

According to the scriptures, the fear of dead is at least the vulnerability that the devil exploits in us to lure us into sin. I think this is more than just a superficial fear of dying. I mean the body can't distinguish between cognitive dissonance and a real mortal threat. So, I understand the fear of death as a life governed by psychological defense mechanisms. Such an individual is fairly easy to manipulate, especially for the devil.

[Heb 2:14-15 NASB95] 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.​

This passage is a little difficult on first glance, as many Bible passages are. Satan's power is not absolute, of course, but is rather under the control of God, Who ultimately rules over life and death (Deuteronomy 32:39; Job 2:6; Psalm 90:3, 139:16; Revelation 1:18). Nevertheless, Satan was "a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44) and he does have power to harm people to some extent (Mark 5:2-5; Luke 13:16), and he can do this in many, many different ways. This is what Paul is saying in Ephesians 6 in exhorting us to "be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might... Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places" (vv.10-12) The writer of Hebrews, in verses 14-15, at least means Satan has power to work in the realm of death, and to incite people into sin that leads to death (Romans 6:16). However, the emphasis of this passage is not on Satan's power but on Christ's triumph over Satan and over death. Regarding these verses in Hebrews, I would propose that you understand what you read there, especially in verse 15, "fear of death" in sort of the same ~ but the opposite, really ~ way as your own moniker, "FearTheLord." Are you scared of God? Well, in a certain sense, maybe, but really, no. Surely you will agree that in Christ, we can approach His the throne of grace with boldness and joy. If we fear the Lord, as the Bible tells us to do in many places, does that just mean for us to be scared of Him? No, of course not; it's obedience to/a reverence for/a worshiping of/a joy in the Lord.. So in the same way, this fear of death should not be understood as a mere fear of dying, but rather falling into sin and thus a reverence and glorifying of Satan rather than God.

Exactly, so there's really no need for a "sin nature." There is only a susceptibility that the devil exploits.

One is only susceptible to something to which he is prone to, has a propensity toward. If we are susceptible to the exploits of the devil, it is because we have a natural inclination ~ to put it mildly ~ towards it. And it takes the supernatural ~ the power of God, by the working of His Spirit in us to incline us away from it and unto Him... to make us no longer of the devil (and therefore slaves to unrighteousness) but rather sons of God (slaves to righteousness). This is Romans exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 6.

You're making a lot of assumptions here that really aren't in the scriptures.

Well, no I'm not. What are these "assumptions" you speak of?

What does Romans 5:12 actually say? It says, "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." It does not say because all were born sinners, or because all were born with a sin nature, or because all were born with the guilt of Adam's sin.

I pointedly and clearly said that we were not guilty of Adam's particular sin. But because of his sin, he came to know ~ which is not just a cognitive knowledge but a propensity toward, even a love of, sin. This became the state of his heart, which he acquired in Genesis 3, and is what spread to all men" and thus is the natural state of human beings from birth... even from conception, really. To explicitly say "we are all born with a sin nature" is not necessary for it to be the clear teaching of Scripture in both the Old Testament and the New. However... <smile>... it is explicitly stated, several times, actually. As Isaiah says, "all we like sheep have gone astray, each to his own way;" (Isaiah 53:6a). And immediately after that, he says, "the Lord has laid on Him..." ~ Jesus, of course ~ "...the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6b). Paul says the same thing, but in a less poetic way, in Romans 3:23, saying "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), and then that we Christians "are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood..." (Romans 3:24-25). And it's exactly what David, the man after God's own heart, says of himself in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." David is not talking about his mother's sin, but himself and his own natural state; David was "brought forth" in iniquity, even from conception.

We need to be careful to stick to what the word says, and not let our imagination run free with false dogmas.

Well, I certainly agree with this. <chuckles>

This goes completely against the context of Romans 7 and contradicts everything written in Romans 6 & 8.

Strange that you would say that, especially when I quoted Paul directly.

Yes, Paul was utilizing the present tense, but context should make it clear that he was using this in a rhetorical way.

There was nothing rhetorical about what he says in those chapters. He does ask some rhetorical questions in Romans, like, for example, in Romans 7, when he writes, "What then shall we say? That the law is sin?" But he answers that question himself, saying "By no means!" And again shortly thereafter, when he writes, "Did that which is good, then, bring death to me?" But he answers that question himself, also, saying again, "By no means!" But the rest of Romans 7 is a clarification of the true state of things, the true state of the human heart, and the battle within, the struggle against the sin that dwells within us. Even in us Christians, the "old man" is still with us, but Paul exhorts us to put off the old man and put on the new" in 2 Corinthians 5. This is the Christian struggle, but fortunately, we have the Holy Spirit, our Helper, Who brings to mind all that Jesus has said (John 14). and we can, as I said, put on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6), and we have each other, as "iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another" (Proverbs 27:17).

And BTW, the Old Testament has a lot of future prophecies spoken in the past tense. This is more obvious when you read a literal translation. So, if tense is your only argument, then you need to reinterpret a lot of the Old Testament as well.

I don't think I said anything about tense... I did speak of something being properly understood in one sense rather than the other sense; perhaps I had a typo in there somewhere...

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

Right, and we remain in Christ through obedience to his commandments, which implies maintenance is needed.

Absolutely. Certainly, we obey, do good works, and we maintain our faith. But who... well, Who... <smile>... really gets the credit even for all of that? God says in Ezekiel 11:19-20 ~ "I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God" ~ and again in Ezekiel 36:26-27 ~ "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." Incidentally, this is clear evidence of the natural propensity to sin that we all have from birth; we have to be given a new spirit, we have to be given God's Spirit.

Paul says the same thing in Ephesians 2:

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

And Peter in 1 Peter 1:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

It's not ok for Christians to agree to disagree on fundamental issues like these, and you have not provided sufficient evidence for me to justify changing my position.

Ah, well, it's okay in the sense that there's really only one fundamental, and that's repentance and belief in Christ. That's all I meant. So, whether you or I is wrong about the sinful nature or lack thereof, neither one of us is going to be... disqualified... as a Christian, or even a really strong Christian, because of that. <smile> Yes, we should agree on it. But if we don't, then, just humanly speaking, between you and me, it's okay. It is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[FearTheLord]

Absolutely. Certainly, we obey, do good works, and we maintain our faith. But who... well, Who... <smile>... really gets the credit even for all of that?

It's the Holy Spirit that empowers us to obey and leads us through the works that God prepared for us, but we still have to make the decision to obey; so, it's not really about who gets the credit. We have to obey to be in Christ, and we will not be saved it we don't remain in Christ.

Ah, well, it's okay in the sense that there's really only one fundamental, and that's repentance and belief in Christ. That's all I meant. So, whether you or I is wrong about the sinful nature or lack thereof, neither one of us is going to be... disqualified... as a Christian, or even a really strong Christian, because of that. <smile> Yes, we should agree on it. But if we don't, then, just humanly speaking, between you and me, it's okay. It is.

Grace and peace to you.

Well, we're not justified by faith alone if that's what you mean. We do have to obey, and that means no more sinning. IF we do sin, repentance is still and option, but it can't continue to be a pattern. Yet your interpretation of Romans 7 has Christians consigned to sin for the rest of their earthly lives. A born-again believer whose life resembles Romans 7:7-24 is no longer born again, and they will not be saved until they repent and remain obedient. Every time we sin, we're putting our salvation in jeopardy.

You and I just don't believe the same gospel.

 

[PinSeeker]

It's the Holy Spirit that empowers us to obey and leads us through the works that God prepared for us, but we still have to make the decision to obey...

Nobody's saying we don't make decisions or that anybody "makes us do what we do whether we want to or not." But, when God gives us new birth by His Spirit, He is working in us in the Person of His Holy Spirit so that we will and work for His good pleasure. This is Philippians 2:12-13... "....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." We do the willing and working for God's pleasure, but because God, again, by His Spirit, is at work in us. In this way, God causes us to obey His statutes, as He says through Ezekiel (19, 36), as I said previously.

....so, it's not really about who gets the credit.

Are we not to glorify God? Is this not the chief end of man, to glorify God (and to enjoy Him forever)? To give Him blessing and honor and glory forever and ever? (These questions are rhetorical... <smile>) So, yes, that's pretty much what it's about... <smile>

We have to obey to be in Christ, and we will not be saved it we don't remain in Christ.

So it's up to us to keep ourselves in Christ; it's up to us, in and of ourselves, to merit, in God's eyes, keeping our salvation? No, and no, FearTheLord. Yes, our continued obedience is essential to our ultimate salvation; we will agree on that, I'm sure. However, if you would answer yes to either of the questions here, you are essentially saying God will not keep all His promises to us, which is most assuredly not true.

Well, we're not justified by faith alone if that's what you mean.

Disagree. By faith for Jews, through faith for Gentiles. Paul says to the Roman Christians that they (and to us that we):

• "...are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law... since God is one ~ Who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith" (Romans 3:26-30).

Faith is a gift of God; we do not manufacture it in ourselves. And when we are justified in our sin, FearTheLord, when God does this, we are given faith ~ the assurance (from God) of things hoped for, the conviction (by the Holy Spirit, Who convicts) of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Your faith is yours, but only because God has worked it in you, maintains it (by the working of His Spirit in us), and preserves it in us all the way to the day of Christ. As Paul says in Philippians 1:6, "He Who began a good work in us will ~ will, not "might or might not" ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ."

We do have to obey...

And ultimately we will, if we are in Christ and thus have the Spirit; God will ensure it.

...and that means no more sinning.

Ultimately, yes, but that will not be until the day we die and go home to be with Jesus or when Christ returns, whichever comes first. But yes, I agree. Unfortunately, being sinless is not possible for us in this life. But for us who are redeemed and in Christ, there is no more condemnation for sin (Romans 8:1).

IF we do sin...

When. I mean, it's no laughing matter, but... <chuckle> We fall into sin over and over and over again.

...repentance is still an option, but it can't continue to be a pattern.

Repentance, in this life, is ongoing. Even the good things we do are tainted in some way by sin. I think you agree. Right, sin "can't continue to be a pattern." And the Spirit will make sure that it's won't be; once we are in Christ, we are being conformed more and more to the image of Christ. I think you know this, right? When John says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness," this is not a one-time act on our part, but rather ongoing,

Yet your interpretation of Romans 7 has Christians consigned to sin for the rest of their earthly lives.

Hmmm... "consigned to sin..." No, it's an acknowledgment that in this life, we cannot escape sin and therefore be sinless as Jesus was. At the very least, that's why we are exhorted again and again and again to, as the writer of Hebrews says, "" (Hebrews 12:1-2). But we will be... One great day, we ~ and the whole world ~ will be completely rid of sin.

A born-again believer whose life resembles Romans 7:7-24 is no longer born again, and they will not be saved until they repent and remain obedient.

Hmmm, well Paul wrote the letter to the Romans, which you know, and that includes Romans 7, of course, and he is talking about himself, using himself as an example. Do you not believe Paul was born again? Again, I wholeheartedly agree that repentance and obedience is required and essential to and in our salvation. But I would say this, that the Bible teaches ~ the Gospel is ~ that in this life, we both have been saved and are being saved at the same time. Again (emphasis added):

• "...we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:37-39).
• "...the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29).
• "...all the promises of God find their Yes in (Christ Jesus)" (2 Corinthians 1:20).
• "In (Christ) we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory" (Ephesians 1:11-14).
• "...(God) has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).

Every time we sin, we're putting our salvation in jeopardy.

Not if we're in Christ. Yet again, as Paul says (yes, I realize I'm repeating at least a bit):

• "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:1-4).
• "In (Christ) we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it

Now, sin has consequences in this life, for sure; God disciplines those He loves. And this is a grace of God. But there is no more condemnation for those of us in Christ Jesus. God hates sin, and He will act accordingly. But... well, again... there is no more condemnation for those of us in Christ Jesus.

You and I just don't believe the same gospel.

I would just say, rather, that at least on a few very important points, we disagree. Neither one of us is "believing a different gospel" in the sense that Paul says of/to the Galatians. You and I might disagree on some things, but I think we believe the same Gospel. As you know, 'gospel' means "good news," and what I would say is that it seems you don't quite understand just how good that news is.

Grace and peace to you