To the only God our Savior

[Matthias]

Thank you for some of your insight. This pretty much my line of thought since running across them a few years back. The Word of God to me is an expression of Yahavahs/Yahwehs heart.

You’re welcome.

People sometimes ask me if the insight disproves trinitarianism. It doesn’t. All of the English translators who published translations prior to KJV were trinitarians. They simply understood that John was equating davar with logos. Davar is a person’s internal words, his thinking, and when expressed verbally or in writing, is the outworking or expression of that internal thinking.

Ask a trinitarian who created the heavens and the earth and what will he or she say? “Jesus” or “the second person of the Trinity”. Jesus, they say, the second person of the Trinity, is the one who said “Let there be ...” in Genesis 1.

 

[Matthias]

The Messiah, in Jewish monotheism, is the embodiment of the Father’s logos / davar.

When I see and hear the Messiah, I see and hear the Messiah’s God and Father in him.

Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of God, is the Word of God.

 

[Matthias]

“Who is the creator of the heavens and earth and everything in them?” my trinitarian (Southern Baptist) Sunday School teacher asked. “Jesus!” I enthusiastically replied, as did all of the other children. (I don’t recall exactly how old I was at the time but it was around the age of 10; a range up to 12 is possible. I moved to another city on my 13th birthday, and didn’t attend any church again for many years. My parents were agnostic, my grandparents on my father’s side of the family were Southern Baptists.)

Southern Baptists aren’t creedal. I was a young adult before I ever heard the post-biblical creeds. And I heard about them in a Bible study led by our Southern Baptist pastor, not from him preaching in the pulpit. That was a game changer for me.

 

[Scott Downey]

Just a translation into English that apparently Tyndale chose 'it', however all the other translations use He

Cloverdale 1535 used the same, not it. The same referring back to the Word confirmed in John 1:10
1:2 The same was in the begynnynge wt God.
1:3 All thinges were made by the same, and without the same was made nothinge that was made.

Tyndale 1:10
He was in ye worlde/ and the worlde was made by him: and yet the worlde knewe him not.

You know, go ahead and make your own translation, like the others did, that's the truth.

John: Chapter 01 - Tyndale Bible

John Tyndale (1526) Tyndale (1534) Tyndale (1535) Coverdale (1535) John Tyndale (1526) Tyndale (1534) Tyndale (1535) Coverdale (1535) TITLE The Gospell off Sancte Ihon. The Gospell of Saincte Iohn. The Gospell of Sayncte Iohn. The gospell of S. Ihon. 1:1 IN the begynnynge was that worde/ ād that...

tyndalebible.com

G846 - autos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G846 - αὐτός autós, ow-tos'; from the particle αὖ aû (perhaps akin to the base of through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative ) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:—her...

www.blueletterbible.org

KJV Translation Count — Total: 5,785x
The KJV translates Strong's G846 in the following manner: him (1,952x), his (1,084x), their (318x), he (252x), her (242x), they (121x), same (80x), himself (58x), miscellaneous (1,678x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. himself, herself, themselves, itself
2. he, she, it
3. the same

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
αὐτός autós, ow-tos'; from the particle αὖ aû (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative G1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:—her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.

 

[Matthias]

“Who is the creator of the heavens and earth and everything in them?” my trinitarian (Southern Baptist) Sunday School teacher asked. “Jesus!” I enthusiastically replied, as did all of the other children. (I don’t recall exactly how old I was at the time but it was around the age of 10; a range up to 12 is possible. I moved to another city on my 13th birthday, and didn’t attend any church again for many years. My parents were agnostic, my grandparents on my father’s side of the family were Southern Baptists.)

Southern Baptists aren’t creedal. I was a young adult before I ever heard the post-biblical creeds. And I heard about them in a Bible study led by our Southern Baptist pastor, not from him preaching in the pulpit. That was a game changer for me.

For those who might be interested: My Southern Baptist pastor.

Pastor Charles Stewart Obituary 2018 - Rose Hill Burial Park

View Pastor Charles Stewart's obituary, find service dates, and sign the guestbook.

www.rosehillburialparks.com

I moved away from Ashland but later moved back (my parents and my siblings never did) and resumed attending Rose Hill Baptist Church. It was there and at that time that I was baptized by him. I attended Rose Hill with my grandparents for the remainder of my time in Ashland. (I later moved to other cities, and even to another state, before returning to the Commonwealth upon retiring. It was in the other state that my faith changed and I was rebaptized.)

I preached at my Grandmother’s graveside service in Ashland (she’s buried next to my Grandfather, in the same cemetery where our pastor is buried) - her request before she died - and so did her pastor - also her request before she died. He declined to speak with me - before, during or after the service ended. (He preached first; I preached last.)

 

[Matthias]

Just a translation into English that apparently Tyndale chose 'it', however all the other translations use He

Cloverdale 1535 used the same, not it. The same referring back to the Word confirmed in John 1:10
1:2 The same was in the begynnynge wt God.
1:3 All thinges were made by the same, and without the same was made nothinge that was made.

Tyndale 1:10
He was in ye worlde/ and the worlde was made by him: and yet the worlde knewe him not.

You know, go ahead and make your own translation, like the others did, that's the truth.

John: Chapter 01 - Tyndale Bible

John Tyndale (1526) Tyndale (1534) Tyndale (1535) Coverdale (1535) John Tyndale (1526) Tyndale (1534) Tyndale (1535) Coverdale (1535) TITLE The Gospell off Sancte Ihon. The Gospell of Saincte Iohn. The Gospell of Sayncte Iohn. The gospell of S. Ihon. 1:1 IN the begynnynge was that worde/ ād that...

tyndalebible.com

G846 - autos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G846 - αὐτός autós, ow-tos'; from the particle αὖ aû (perhaps akin to the base of through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative ) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:—her...

www.blueletterbible.org

KJV Translation Count — Total: 5,785x
The KJV translates Strong's G846 in the following manner: him (1,952x), his (1,084x), their (318x), he (252x), her (242x), they (121x), same (80x), himself (58x), miscellaneous (1,678x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. himself, herself, themselves, itself
2. he, she, it
3. the same

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
αὐτός autós, ow-tos'; from the particle αὖ aû (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative G1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:—her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.

The Coverdale translation:

“In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and God was the worde. The same was in the begynnynge. All thinges were made by the same, and without the same was made nothinge that was made. In him was the life, and the life was the light if men. And the light shyneth in the darknesse, and the darkness comprehended it not.”

All things were made by “the same” worde and without “the same worde” nothing that was made was made.

The “same worde” is the utterance of “our only Gid and Savior” (Jude 1:25). Later, that “same worde” created the man Messiah Jesus in the womb of the virgin Mary.

You helpfully supplied a resource shiwing that logos (and it’s Hebrew equivalent davar) may be translated “the same” and “it”.

That is precisely what the Geneva Bible translators did, and what Tyndale and others did. It is not what the KJV translators did.

Why did the KJV translators translate it differently?

 

[Matthias]

@Scott Downey how many selfs is a person?

 

[Matthias]

“In the begynngge was the worde, and the worde was wyth God; and God was the worde. The same was in the begynnyng wyth God. All things were made by it and without it was made nothynge was made. In it was lyfe …”

(Great Bible, 1539)

Your “worde” is you @Scott Downey. My “worde” is me. God’s “worde” is God.

Your spoken “worde,” my spoken “worde, “God’s spoken “worde” is the expression of our respective selves.

 

[APAK]

The NEV New European Version of the Christadelphians

(Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the word logos, and the word was towards God, and the word was Divine.

(Joh 1:2) This existed, in the beginning, with God.

(Joh 1:3) All things created came into existence on account of it; and without it nothing created came into existence.

 

[Matthias]

The NEV New European Version of the Christadelphians

(Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the word logos, and the word was towards God, and the word was Divine.

(Joh 1:2) This existed, in the beginning, with God.

(Joh 1:3) All things created came into existence on account of it; and without it nothing created came into existence.

Thanks. This is the first time I’ve ever seen their translation. It fits well with Tyndale and the other translatations that are like his.

“It” obviously (maybe not so obviously to the average trinitarian) isn’t a unitarian bias. Trinitarian and non-trinitarian translators alike acknowledge and recognize that when John wrote logos - he didn’t write “Jesus”, he didn’t write “the Son”, and he didn’t write “the second person of the Trinity” - he is drawing on his Hebrew Bible background, davar.

I had a conversation on another forum not long ago (within the last year or two) with a trinitarian pastor wherein he insisted that Tyndale and the translators of the Geneva Bible were ignorant about the Greek language! There’s nothing you can do with people who have that mindset. Thank them for their time and move on.

 

[Scott Downey]

Thanks. This is the first time I’ve ever seen their translation. It fits well with Tyndale and the other translatations that are like his.

“It” obviously (maybe not so obviously to the average trinitarian) isn’t a unitarian bias. Trinitarian and non-trinitarian translators alike acknowledge and recognize that when John wrote logos - he didn’t write “Jesus”, he didn’t write “the Son”, and he didn’t write “the second person of the Trinity” - he is drawing on his Hebrew Bible background, davar.

I had a conversation on another forum not long ago (within the last year or two) with a trinitarian pastor wherein he insisted that Tyndale and the translators of the Geneva Bible were ignorant about the Greek language! There’s nothing you can do with people who have that mindset. Thank them for their time and move on.

Tyndale is just another version made by Tyndale. Mostly totally ignored today. Anyone can make their own translation; it has no weight to make it better than the others. You brought it up simply because you like the translation from the Greek that Tyndale used.

I wonder what He wrote in Colossians 1

 

[Scott Downey]

Colossians: Chapter 01 - Tyndale Bible

Col. Tyndale (1526) Tyndale (1534) Tyndale (1535) Coverdale (1535) Col. Tyndale (1526) Tyndale (1534) Tyndale (1535) Coverdale (1535) TITLE The pistle off paul vnto the Collossyans. The pistle of S Paul to the Colossyans. The epistle of saynct Paul the Apostle to the Colossyans. The Epistle of...

tyndalebible.com

Tyndale Col 1
1:14 in whom we have redempciō thorowe his bloud/ that is to saye forgevenes of sinnes/

15 which is the ymage of the invisible god/ fyrst begotten before all creatures:

16 for by hī were all thyngſ created/ thyngſ that are in heven/ and thyngſ that are in erth: thyngſ visible/ and thyngſ invisible: whether they be maieste or lordshippe/ other rule or power. All thīgſ are creatyd by hym/ and in hym/

1:17 ād he is before all thyngſ/ and in hym all thyngſ have there beynge.

1:18 And he is the heed of the body/ that is to wit of the congregacion/ he is the begynnynge ād fyrst begotten of the deed/ that in all thyngſ he might have the preeminence.

1:19 For it pleased the father that in hym shulde all fulnes dwell/

1:20 and by hym to reconcile all thynge vnto hym silfe/ and to set at peace by hī throw the bloud of his crosse both thyngſ in heven and thyngſ in erth.

No difference from today, Christ created all things.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here is Luther's Bible, Luther was admired well by Tyndale

Bible Gateway passage: Johannes 1 - Luther Bibel 1545

Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und Gott war das Wort. Dasselbe war im Anfang bei Gott. Alle Dinge sind durch dasselbe gemacht, und ohne dasselbe ist nichts gemacht, was gemacht ist. In ihm war das Leben, und das Leben war das Licht der Menschen. Und das Licht scheint in der...

www.biblegateway.com

Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und Gott war das Wort.

2 Dasselbe war im Anfang bei Gott.

3 Alle Dinge sind durch dasselbe gemacht, und ohne dasselbe ist nichts gemacht, was gemacht ist.

4 In ihm war das Leben, und das Leben war das Licht der Menschen.

5 Und das Licht scheint in der Finsternis, und die Finsternis hat's nicht begriffen.

6 Es ward ein Mensch von Gott gesandt, der hieß Johannes.

7 Dieser kam zum Zeugnis, daß er von dem Licht zeugte, auf daß sie alle durch ihn glaubten.

8 Er war nicht das Licht, sondern daß er zeugte von dem Licht.

9 Das war das wahrhaftige Licht, welches alle Menschen erleuchtet, die in diese Welt kommen.

10 Es war in der Welt, und die Welt ist durch dasselbe gemacht; und die Welt kannte es nicht.

11 Er kam in sein Eigentum; und die Seinen nahmen ihn nicht auf.

12 Wie viele ihn aber aufnahmen, denen gab er Macht, Kinder Gottes zu werden, die an seinen Namen glauben;





The translation from German to English

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

2 The same thing was with God in the beginning.

3 All things were made by him, and without him nothing was made that was made.

4 In him was life, and life was the light of men.

5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not understood it.

6 A man was sent by God, whose name was John.

7 He came to testify that he bore witness of the light, that they might all believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but that he bore witness to the light.

9 This was the true light that enlightens all men who come into this world.

10 It was in the world, and the world was made by it; and the world did not know it.

11 He came into his own; and his own did not receive him.

12 But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become children of God, believing in his name;

 

[MatthewG]

The NEV New European Version of the Christadelphians

(Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the word logos, and the word was towards God, and the word was Divine.

(Joh 1:2) This existed, in the beginning, with God.

(Joh 1:3) All things created came into existence on account of it; and without it nothing created came into existence.

Hello @APAK, never seen this before. Pretty neat, thank you for sharing.

 

[Matthias]

Tyndale is just another version made by Tyndale.

An accurate translation of the Greek in John’s prologue.

Mostly totally ignored today.

Just like the history of the doctrine of the Trinity is. There is a cure for that ignorance but few care to take it.

Anyone can make their own translation; it has no weight to make it better than the others.

Beware of persons who make their own translations and aren’t able to read the biblical languages.

You brought it up simply because you like the translation from the Greek that Tyndale used.

That’s not why I brought it up and there is nothing wrong with the Greek that he and the others used.

I wonder what He wrote in Colossians 1

I don’t. I’ve read it.

 

[Matthias]

Colossians: Chapter 01 - Tyndale Bible

Col. Tyndale (1526) Tyndale (1534) Tyndale (1535) Coverdale (1535) Col. Tyndale (1526) Tyndale (1534) Tyndale (1535) Coverdale (1535) TITLE The pistle off paul vnto the Collossyans. The pistle of S Paul to the Colossyans. The epistle of saynct Paul the Apostle to the Colossyans. The Epistle of...

tyndalebible.com

Tyndale Col 1
1:14 in whom we have redempciō thorowe his bloud/ that is to saye forgevenes of sinnes/

15 which is the ymage of the invisible god/ fyrst begotten before all creatures:

16 for by hī were all thyngſ created/ thyngſ that are in heven/ and thyngſ that are in erth: thyngſ visible/ and thyngſ invisible: whether they be maieste or lordshippe/ other rule or power. All thīgſ are creatyd by hym/ and in hym/

1:17 ād he is before all thyngſ/ and in hym all thyngſ have there beynge.

1:18 And he is the heed of the body/ that is to wit of the congregacion/ he is the begynnynge ād fyrst begotten of the deed/ that in all thyngſ he might have the preeminence.

1:19 For it pleased the father that in hym shulde all fulnes dwell/

1:20 and by hym to reconcile all thynge vnto hym silfe/ and to set at peace by hī throw the bloud of his crosse both thyngſ in heven and thyngſ in erth.

No difference from today, Christ created all things.

You haven’t been able to distinguish the Genesis creation from the new creation. Jesus has a creative role in the new creation.

 

[Matthias]

Here is Luther's Bible, Luther was admired well by Tyndale

Bible Gateway passage: Johannes 1 - Luther Bibel 1545

Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und Gott war das Wort. Dasselbe war im Anfang bei Gott. Alle Dinge sind durch dasselbe gemacht, und ohne dasselbe ist nichts gemacht, was gemacht ist. In ihm war das Leben, und das Leben war das Licht der Menschen. Und das Licht scheint in der...

www.biblegateway.com

Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und Gott war das Wort.

2 Dasselbe war im Anfang bei Gott.

3 Alle Dinge sind durch dasselbe gemacht, und ohne dasselbe ist nichts gemacht, was gemacht ist.

4 In ihm war das Leben, und das Leben war das Licht der Menschen.

5 Und das Licht scheint in der Finsternis, und die Finsternis hat's nicht begriffen.

6 Es ward ein Mensch von Gott gesandt, der hieß Johannes.

7 Dieser kam zum Zeugnis, daß er von dem Licht zeugte, auf daß sie alle durch ihn glaubten.

8 Er war nicht das Licht, sondern daß er zeugte von dem Licht.

9 Das war das wahrhaftige Licht, welches alle Menschen erleuchtet, die in diese Welt kommen.

10 Es war in der Welt, und die Welt ist durch dasselbe gemacht; und die Welt kannte es nicht.

11 Er kam in sein Eigentum; und die Seinen nahmen ihn nicht auf.

12 Wie viele ihn aber aufnahmen, denen gab er Macht, Kinder Gottes zu werden, die an seinen Namen glauben;





The translation from German to English

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

2 The same thing was with God in the beginning.

3 All things were made by him, and without him nothing was made that was made.

4 In him was life, and life was the light of men.

5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not understood it.

6 A man was sent by God, whose name was John.

7 He came to testify that he bore witness of the light, that they might all believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but that he bore witness to the light.

9 This was the true light that enlightens all men who come into this world.

10 It was in the world, and the world was made by it; and the world did not know it.

11 He came into his own; and his own did not receive him.

12 But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become children of God, believing in his name;

Luther and Tyndale were both trinitarian. Neither of then were Jewish monotheists.

Here comes the hound of Jewish monotheism: Jesus isn’t a trinitarian. Jesus is a Jewish monotheist. The apostles aren’t trinitarians. The apostles are Jewish monotheists. The primitive Christians aren’t trinitarians. The primitive Christians are Jewish monotheists.

Justin Martyr isn’t a trinitarian. Neither is he a Jewish monotheist.

Tertullian isn’t a trinitarian. Neither is he a Jewish monotheist.

We can all add post-biblical names to this list. Eventually we will arrive at Nicaea in 325 and, a little later, at Constantinople in 381.

 

[Matthias]

How did the Church move from the Jewish monotheism of Jesus and the apostles (1st century) to the trinitarianism of Nicaea/Constantinople (4th century)? Having become predominantly gentile, it used the terminology of Greek philosophy to interpret and understand scripture that was written by Jewish monotheists, giving it new meaning.

All readers should keep this in mind. It’s the history of, the unfolding story of, Christianity.

They didn’t share this history with me in the Southern Baptist Church. My trinitarian pastor put me on to it, in a private Bible study, and I’ll always be grateful to him for that.

 

[Matthias]

@APAK, and to anyone else who will listen to my voice of and for Jewish monotheism.

“So shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but shall do what pleases me, achieving the end for which I sent it.”

(Isaiah 55:11, NABRE)

The word that goes forth from God’s mouth, his davar, his logos, it. That’s the background of John.

The same “our only God and Savior” (Jude 1:25) who in the beginning caused the Genesis creation, caused the new creation in the womb of the virgin.

 

[Scott Downey]

Luther and Tyndale were both trinitarian. Neither of then were Jewish monotheists.

Here comes the hound of Jewish monotheism: Jesus isn’t a trinitarian. Jesus is a Jewish monotheist. The apostles aren’t trinitarians. The apostles are Jewish monotheists. The primitive Christians aren’t trinitarians. The primitive Christians are Jewish monotheists.

Justin Martyr isn’t a trinitarian. Neither is he a Jewish monotheist.

Tertullian isn’t a trinitarian. Neither is he a Jewish monotheist.

We can all add post-biblical names to this list. Eventually we will arrive at Nicaea in 325 and, a little later, at Constantinople in 381.

Justin Martyr says Jesus is God. Read here. And admits there are at least two persons of God.

Justin Martyr on the Trinity

I always chuckle inside when I hear someone saying that the doctrine of the Trinity originated in 325 AD at Nicea. Sometimes they even suggest that it w...

www.dtsheffler.com