THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[A Freeman]

By this statement, do you believe that in order for JESUS to Return/His 2nd Coming(H2C) that He must come in another body???

If, Yes - please share - and i SEE the prophecy that you posted - Thank You

It isn't the Second Coming of Jesus (the Son of Mary); it's the Second Coming of Christ (the Firstborn/Eldest Son of God).

And yes, Scripture tells us that Christ will return just before Judgement Day in a new body (from Joseph-Ephraim - see: Gen. 49:10, 22-24 previously cited) with a NEW NAME (Rev. 2:17; Rev. 3:12; Rev. 19:12) to enlighten the world (Matt. 24:27-31; Rev. 10:6-10) and gather the "Elect" (Rev. 7:4-9; Rev. 14:1-4).

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is no such thing as a pre-human Jesus.

The Bible clearly states that the son is God’s “firstborn”…his “only begotten”…..and that he existed “before all things” and was used in their creation…..the Bible argues with that premise. (Col 1:15-17; John 1:2-3)
Who was God talking to in Gen 1:26? Angels had no part in creation except as interested onlookers.

That is an excellent video and well researched, but there is nothing in scripture about the birthdates of anyone…..the reason being that the Jews of that period did not celebrate birthdays…only pagans did.
The only two celebrations of a birthday mentioned in the Bible, occurred with Pharaoh in Egypt at which Pharaoh decreed the death of his baker (Gen 40) and the other was a party that King Herod threw to celebrate his birthday…..at which the daughter of his defacto wife danced for him, prompting him to give her whatever she asked for. Her mother, a hater of John the Baptist for exposing her immoral relationship with the King asked for John’s head on a platter, which out of pride, Herod ordered so as not to appear weak to his guests. (Matt 14:1-12)
So birthdays do not feature well in the Bible.

We only have one “birthday”, and that is the day we come into the world…a day for legitimate celebration, but the excuses offered in the video do not stand up to biblical scrutiny. It is a justification and an appeal to emotion that does not agree with the scriptures at all. If birthdates associated with celebrations were something God approved of, they would be clearly stated in the Bible. The cake, the wishes, and even the candles all are of pagan origin….all to do with spiritism.

Birthdates were used in astrology to cast horoscopes for the new born child, thereby predicting their future……all those things were forbidden to God’s people because of their Canaanite origins (Deut 18:9-12)…..they were truly wicked people whose activities offended God to the point that he commanded that they all be evicted from the land he promised to his own people.

Do you know what people believed back then? They believed that the Messiah would be an angel or a theophany. Therefore, to believe that Jesus is the Christ is to accept that a man, not a deity, is the messiah.

The Messiah was to be a man, born of a woman with established lineage to the Davidic line. Nowhere is it said that he would be an angel or a manifestation of God in the flesh. Through Mary Jesus had all the credentials he needed to claim his Messiahship….and the place of his birth was also added to that….a last minute call from the ruler to get registered, and so Joseph took a very pregnant Mary to Bethlehem, where it was foretold that Messiah would be born. His life course and his sacrificial death, all carefully foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[A Freeman]

i've been saved for 40 years and the Scriptures are my daily bread, so i never assume i know all things - no one should

We who are in Christ are One Body, therefore God has called us to learn, grow and encourage from one another.

And yet you're assuming you've been "saved" when making that determination is a job that Father (God) has relegated to Christ ALONE.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son (Enoch 58:1; 60:11; 68:39):

 

[David in NJ]

It isn't the Second Coming of Jesus (the Son of Mary); it's the Second Coming of Christ (the Firstborn/Eldest Son of God).

And yes, Scripture tells us that Christ will return just before Judgement Day in a new body (from Joseph-Ephraim - see: Gen. 49:10, 22-24 previously cited) with a NEW NAME (Rev. 2:17; Rev. 3:12; Rev. 19:12) to enlighten the world (Matt. 24:27-31; Rev. 10:6-10) and gather the "Elect" (Rev. 7:4-9; Rev. 14:1-4).

The Lord Jesus Christ is the same body EXCEPT for this:

John 17:5 - And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We SEE His Resurrected Glorified Body in Revelation chapter 1

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

 

[David in NJ]

And yet you're assuming you've been "saved" when making that determination is a job that Father (God) has relegated to Christ ALONE.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son (Enoch 58:1; 60:11; 68:39):

No, i do not assume, for the FATHER called me to His Son who washed me from my sins.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

 

[JLB]

No. It’s simply that the son is not God.

Juxtaposition. If the trinity was Biblical, there would not be a single verse like above. It would read ‘the Father’ so loved the world.’ It is significant that God is juxtaposed with Christ.

And this juxtaposition is ubiquitous.

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in the Prophets:
“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make His paths straight.’ ”
Mark 1:1-2


Who did John the Baptist prepare the way for?


YHWH the LORD God.

 

[A Freeman]

The Bible clearly states that the son is God’s “firstborn”…his “only begotten”…..and that he existed “before all things” and was used in their creation…..the Bible argues with that premise. (Col 1:15-17; John 1:2-3)
Who was God talking to in Gen 1:26? Angels had no part in creation except as interested onlookers.

That is an excellent video and well researched, but there is nothing in scripture about the birthdates of anyone…..the reason being that the Jews of that period did not celebrate birthdays…only pagans did.
The only two celebrations of a birthday mentioned in the Bible, occurred with Pharaoh in Egypt at which Pharaoh decreed the death of his baker (Gen 40) and the other was a party that King Herod threw to celebrate his birthday…..at which the daughter of his defacto wife danced for him, prompting him to give her whatever she asked for. Her mother, a hater of John the Baptist for exposing her immoral relationship with the King asked for John’s head on a platter, which out of pride, Herod ordered so as not to appear weak to his guests. (Matt 14:1-12)
So birthdays do not feature well in the Bible.

We only have one “birthday”, and that is the day we come into the world…a day for legitimate celebration, but the excuses offered in the video do not stand up to biblical scrutiny. It is a justification and an appeal to emotion that does not agree with the scriptures at all. If birthdates associated with celebrations were something God approved of, they would be clearly stated in the Bible. The cake, the wishes, and even the candles all are of pagan origin….all to do with spiritism.

Birthdates were used in astrology to cast horoscopes for the new born child, thereby predicting their future……all those things were forbidden to God’s people because of their Canaanite origins (Deut 18:9-12)…..they were truly wicked people whose activities offended God to the point that he commanded that they all be evicted from the land he promised to his own people.


The Messiah was to be a man, born of a woman with established lineage to the Davidic line. Nowhere is it said that he would be an angel or a manifestation of God in the flesh. Through Mary Jesus had all the credentials he needed to claim his Messiahship….and the place of his birth was also added to that….a last minute call from the ruler to get registered, and so Joseph took a very pregnant Mary to Bethlehem, where it was foretold that Messiah would be born. His life course and his sacrificial death, all carefully foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures.

This isn't meant to put you on the spot, but do you see a difference please between Christ (the immortal spirit-Being and God's firstborn/first-created Son) and Jesus (the mortal human son of Mary, who was crucified, died and whom God resurrected 3 days and 3 nights later)?

This is basically what was being asked of the pharisees/politicians, to see if they could differentiate between the spirit (Being) and the flesh (human) in the following passage:

Matthew 22:41-46
22:41 While the politicians were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.
22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
22:44 The "I AM" said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool (Ps. 110:1)?
22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is He his son?
22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].

 

[A Freeman]

The Lord Jesus Christ is the same body EXCEPT for this:

John 17:5 - And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We SEE His Resurrected Glorified Body in Revelation chapter 1

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

The description of the body in Revelation 1:14-16 that Christ will be using during His Second Coming (which you've cited above) is of an elderly white male, with white hair, blue eyes, and a voice speaking in the most universal language on Earth: the English language.

It should be noted that the body of Jesus was only 40 years old when Jesus was crucified, so the above description cannot possibly be describing Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

Who did John the Baptist prepare the way for?


YHWH the LORD God.

And you think this means the prepared way cannot be for YHWH’s servant?

Also, most translations render it lowercase Lord.

 

[David in NJ]

The description of the body in Revelation 1:14-16 that Christ will be using during His Second Coming (which you've cited above) is of an elderly white male, with white hair, blue eyes, and a voice speaking in the most universal language on Earth: the English language.

It should be noted that the body of Jesus was only 40 years old when Jesus was crucified, so the above description cannot possibly be describing Jesus.

His 40 year old body was GLORIFIED into the GLORY that the Word had with the FATHER before HE came to earth as a man.

"And now, O Father, Glorify Me together with Yourself, with the Glory which I had with You before the world was."

 

[Brakelite]

No. It’s simply that the son is not God.

Juxtaposition. If the trinity was Biblical, there would not be a single verse like above. It would read ‘the Father’ so loved the world.’ It is significant that God is juxtaposed with Christ.

And this juxtaposition is ubiquitous.

Hey, back up a little. Who said I was defending the trinity? I'm simply stating that God sent His Son. Which means He had a Son to send. I don't need the trinity to defend that. It's all through the NT.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Do you that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Cornerstone and Foundation???

It says so in Matthew 16:8

 

[David in NJ]

It says so in Matthew 16:8

But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?

Maybe you are thinking of a different scripture then Matt 16:8

 

[David in NJ]

It says so in Matthew 16:8

Matthew 16:18 ???

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it

 

[Pierac]

Matthew 16:18 ???

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it

The Rock

Believers in the personal preexistence of Christ often appeal to the words of the apostle Paul in I Cor 10:4 where he says of the Israelites in the wilderness, that they all drank "the same spiritual drink for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them; and that rock was Christ." It is argued from this that Christ Himself personally accompanied the people of Israel as they journeyed through the wilderness to the promised land. The verse is often tied in with several Old Testament texts which describe Yahweh as a Rock (Deut 32:4; Ps 18:2,31).

Since Yahweh is the rock, and Christ is also the rock who accompanied Israel, Christ must therefore be Yahweh, it is believed. This interpretation, common though it is, suffers from a number of serious defects. The first of these concerns the meaning of the term "Christ". Too often we use it simply as a proper name for Jesus as if it were His surname. "Christos" is the Greek form of the Hebrew word "Messiah", meaning "the anointed one". It was a title given to the Kings of Israel. David was a "messiah" and was a type, or forerunner, of the one who would deliver the people of Israel and establish the Kingdom of God. the coming of the Messiah is a common theme of OT prophecy. He was to be the "seed of Abraham" Gen 3:15; Gal 3:8,16, "the seed of Judah" Gen49:10; I Chron. 5:2, and the "seed of David" II Sam &:12~14; Isa 11:1,10;Rom.1:3;II Tim2:8. "Seed" in all these scriptures means "descendant" This points to the fact that the Messiah was prophesied to arise from the human race.

Nothing in the OT suggests that the promised seed was already in existence in another form. For Paul to have taught that the Messiah was personally present with Israel would have been a staggering contradiction of the words of the prophets. The second major objection to this theory is the fact that God used angels to minister to Israel.

The NT declares in three places that the law was given by angels, Acts7:38,53, Gal 3:9 & Heb2:2. In each of these passages the angelic giving of the Law forms an important part of the debate. Study each in its context with care and you will see that the common theme is the superiority of the Gospel to the Law. The Law was given only by angels but the Gospel was brought by the Son of God and is therefore vastly superior to it. Christ could not have had any part, therefore, either in giving the Law to Israel, or in ministering to the Israelites in the wilderness. Since the Messiah could not have been present personally in the wilderness, Paul's statement must mean that the Rock represented or typified Christ in some way. It is not uncommon for Scripture to use the verb "to be" in a representational sense. Jesus said "I am the Door" Jn 10:7, "I am the true Vine" Jn 15:1. In the instution of the Lord's supper he said that the bread "is my body" and the cup "is my blood" I Cor11:24,25, clearly meant that they symbolized his broken body and shed blood.

This interpretation is strengthened by a close study of the whole passage from verse 1 to verse 11 of 1 Corinthians 10. Twice Paul states that the experiences of Israel were examples for us (vv.6,11). the Greek word used here actually means "types". The passing of the Israelites through the cloud and through the Red Sea was a type of Christian baptism. They were baptized "into Moses" (v. 2, NASB) as we are baptized "into Christ" (Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27). Verses 3 and 4 continue the typological parallel by referring to the incidents of the giving of the manna in Exodus 16, and the incidents at Rephidim and Kadesh when God miraculously supplied water out of a rock (Ex. 17:1-7; Num. 20: 1-13). The "spiritual" food mentioned in verse 3 is clearly the manna miraculously given daily to Israel over a period of 40 years. The giving of the manna is recorded in Exodus 16 and forms the background to John 6.

There are two incidents involving a rock recorded during the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites and it is important to notice the difference between them. The first incident occurred just after the miraculous giving of the manna. Israel arrived at Rephidim (Ex. 17:1) and immediately began to complain about lack of water, whereupon God commanded Moses to strike the rock. Water gushed out and the people's thirst was satisfied. The striking of the rock typifies the fact that Christ our Rock was smitten for us. The miraculous giving of the water typifies the giving of the Holy Spirit, the water of Life (John 7:37-39).

The second incident occurred toward the end of the wandering in the wilderness. Again, Israel complained for lack of water and again God provided for their needs. This time, however, he clearly instructed Moses to speak to the rock, but in his anger Moses disobeyed and struck the rock twice (Num. 20: 1-12). In smiting the rock instead of speaking to it Moses was guilty of destroying the type. The rock in Exodus 17 typified Christ in the flesh, smitten to give to us the water of life while the rock in Numbers 20 typified Christ our High Priest, not to be smitten twice (cp. Heb. 6:6), but only to be spoken to to supply the water of life.

The first incident occurred at the beginning of the wanderings, the second at the end; both incidents thus form a parable of Christ's continuous presence with his people during their "wilderness wanderings." The two incidents we have looked at took place in entirely different locations and there is a different Hebrew word for "rock" used in each place. In Exodus 17 the word is tsur and in Numbers 20 it is sela.

So what does Paul mean when he states that "they drank of that spiritual rock which followed them"? Obviously, a literal rock did not accompany Israel through the wilderness and many feel that this is proof that Christ himself went with them. The answer is that Paul is using the language of Christian experience and reading it back into the Old Testament type. This is shown clearly by his reference to baptism in verses 1 and 2. The Israelites were not literally "baptized". In fact, we are told that the water did not come near them; they walked dryshod through the Red Sea. But their experience is a close enough parallel for Paul to say they were baptized "into Moses". Likewise the rock did not literally follow them. It was simply a type of Christ accompanying us through life.

Well, this is about the best I can do to help you understand this topic. I hope it helps.

 

[David in NJ]

The Rock

Believers in the personal preexistence of Christ often appeal to the words of the apostle Paul in I Cor 10:4 where he says of the Israelites in the wilderness, that they all drank "the same spiritual drink for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them; and that rock was Christ." It is argued from this that Christ Himself personally accompanied the people of Israel as they journeyed through the wilderness to the promised land. The verse is often tied in with several Old Testament texts which describe Yahweh as a Rock (Deut 32:4; Ps 18:2,31).

Since Yahweh is the rock, and Christ is also the rock who accompanied Israel, Christ must therefore be Yahweh, it is believed. This interpretation, common though it is, suffers from a number of serious defects. The first of these concerns the meaning of the term "Christ". Too often we use it simply as a proper name for Jesus as if it were His surname. "Christos" is the Greek form of the Hebrew word "Messiah", meaning "the anointed one". It was a title given to the Kings of Israel. David was a "messiah" and was a type, or forerunner, of the one who would deliver the people of Israel and establish the Kingdom of God. the coming of the Messiah is a common theme of OT prophecy. He was to be the "seed of Abraham" Gen 3:15; Gal 3:8,16, "the seed of Judah" Gen49:10; I Chron. 5:2, and the "seed of David" II Sam &:12~14; Isa 11:1,10;Rom.1:3;II Tim2:8. "Seed" in all these scriptures means "descendant" This points to the fact that the Messiah was prophesied to arise from the human race.

Nothing in the OT suggests that the promised seed was already in existence in another form. For Paul to have taught that the Messiah was personally present with Israel would have been a staggering contradiction of the words of the prophets. The second major objection to this theory is the fact that God used angels to minister to Israel.

The NT declares in three places that the law was given by angels, Acts7:38,53, Gal 3:9 & Heb2:2. In each of these passages the angelic giving of the Law forms an important part of the debate. Study each in its context with care and you will see that the common theme is the superiority of the Gospel to the Law. The Law was given only by angels but the Gospel was brought by the Son of God and is therefore vastly superior to it. Christ could not have had any part, therefore, either in giving the Law to Israel, or in ministering to the Israelites in the wilderness. Since the Messiah could not have been present personally in the wilderness, Paul's statement must mean that the Rock represented or typified Christ in some way. It is not uncommon for Scripture to use the verb "to be" in a representational sense. Jesus said "I am the Door" Jn 10:7, "I am the true Vine" Jn 15:1. In the instution of the Lord's supper he said that the bread "is my body" and the cup "is my blood" I Cor11:24,25, clearly meant that they symbolized his broken body and shed blood.

This interpretation is strengthened by a close study of the whole passage from verse 1 to verse 11 of 1 Corinthians 10. Twice Paul states that the experiences of Israel were examples for us (vv.6,11). the Greek word used here actually means "types". The passing of the Israelites through the cloud and through the Red Sea was a type of Christian baptism. They were baptized "into Moses" (v. 2, NASB) as we are baptized "into Christ" (Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27). Verses 3 and 4 continue the typological parallel by referring to the incidents of the giving of the manna in Exodus 16, and the incidents at Rephidim and Kadesh when God miraculously supplied water out of a rock (Ex. 17:1-7; Num. 20: 1-13). The "spiritual" food mentioned in verse 3 is clearly the manna miraculously given daily to Israel over a period of 40 years. The giving of the manna is recorded in Exodus 16 and forms the background to John 6.

There are two incidents involving a rock recorded during the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites and it is important to notice the difference between them. The first incident occurred just after the miraculous giving of the manna. Israel arrived at Rephidim (Ex. 17:1) and immediately began to complain about lack of water, whereupon God commanded Moses to strike the rock. Water gushed out and the people's thirst was satisfied. The striking of the rock typifies the fact that Christ our Rock was smitten for us. The miraculous giving of the water typifies the giving of the Holy Spirit, the water of Life (John 7:37-39).

The second incident occurred toward the end of the wandering in the wilderness. Again, Israel complained for lack of water and again God provided for their needs. This time, however, he clearly instructed Moses to speak to the rock, but in his anger Moses disobeyed and struck the rock twice (Num. 20: 1-12). In smiting the rock instead of speaking to it Moses was guilty of destroying the type. The rock in Exodus 17 typified Christ in the flesh, smitten to give to us the water of life while the rock in Numbers 20 typified Christ our High Priest, not to be smitten twice (cp. Heb. 6:6), but only to be spoken to to supply the water of life.

The first incident occurred at the beginning of the wanderings, the second at the end; both incidents thus form a parable of Christ's continuous presence with his people during their "wilderness wanderings." The two incidents we have looked at took place in entirely different locations and there is a different Hebrew word for "rock" used in each place. In Exodus 17 the word is tsur and in Numbers 20 it is sela.

So what does Paul mean when he states that "they drank of that spiritual rock which followed them"? Obviously, a literal rock did not accompany Israel through the wilderness and many feel that this is proof that Christ himself went with them. The answer is that Paul is using the language of Christian experience and reading it back into the Old Testament type. This is shown clearly by his reference to baptism in verses 1 and 2. The Israelites were not literally "baptized". In fact, we are told that the water did not come near them; they walked dryshod through the Red Sea. But their experience is a close enough parallel for Paul to say they were baptized "into Moses". Likewise the rock did not literally follow them. It was simply a type of Christ accompanying us through life.

Well, this is about the best I can do to help you understand this topic. I hope it helps.

Thank You for this post and i will read it tomorrow as it is late for me.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This isn't meant to put you on the spot, but do you see a difference please between Christ (the immortal spirit-Being and God's firstborn/first-created Son) and Jesus (the mortal human son of Mary, who was crucified, died and whom God resurrected 3 days and 3 nights later)?

Firstly, I do not see Christ as an immortal being from his creation up until his birth as a human. He has always been God’s “firstborn” from “the beginning”….”before all things”….(Col 1:15-17)
God as an eternal being, had no beginning, but his son did. (Rev 3:14)

Jesus the man was 100% human, or he could not have redeemed mankind with the sacrifice of his sinless life. These two are one and the same person but in different forms, (as it says in Phil 2:5,he was “in God’s form” and we know that God is a spirit). His transformation was facilitated by God for the role that his son would play as redeemer in the outworking of his purpose…..the son was not granted immortality until his return to heaven…this was his Father’s reward for his faithful obedience. Those chosen by God for a role in heaven are also granted immortal life in heaven with their Lord Jesus, as Kings and priests in God’s Kingdom. (Rev 20:6)

Do you know what God’s first purpose was for the human race….and how we lost it…..and how Christ came to get it back for us? How does Christ’s death gain us everlasting life….and how is everlasting life different from immortality? It is important to know the difference….

This is basically what was being asked of the pharisees/politicians, to see if they could differentiate between the spirit (Being) and the flesh (human) in the following passage:

Matthew 22:41-46
22:41 While the politicians were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.
22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
22:44 The "I AM" said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool (Ps. 110:1)?
22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is He his son?
22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].

Not sure what translation you are using there, but I detect a major error in verse 44.
It should read, as it does in Hebrew, “Yahweh said to my Lord”…..There is no “I Am”….and never was.
God’s name was revealed to Israel in a way that his servants had never experienced before…..
Here it is from the Jewish Tanakh…

Exodus 3:13-15….

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

You can see that the meaning of God’s name is “I will be what I will be”….The Israelites already knew who their God was, so, it makes no sense to tell them that he existed…..but now they would know him in a very different way…he would “be” whatever he needed to be in order to fulfill his purpose in connection with them…and that was to produce their Messiah.
“The LORD God” is Yahweh as we can see in the Hebrew text….and his miracles would free them from slavery in Egypt….becoming their deliverer.

 

[David in NJ]

The Rock

Believers in the personal preexistence of Christ often appeal to the words of the apostle Paul in I Cor 10:4 where he says of the Israelites in the wilderness, that they all drank "the same spiritual drink for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them; and that rock was Christ." It is argued from this that Christ Himself personally accompanied the people of Israel as they journeyed through the wilderness to the promised land. The verse is often tied in with several Old Testament texts which describe Yahweh as a Rock (Deut 32:4; Ps 18:2,31).

Since Yahweh is the rock, and Christ is also the rock who accompanied Israel, Christ must therefore be Yahweh, it is believed. This interpretation, common though it is, suffers from a number of serious defects. The first of these concerns the meaning of the term "Christ". Too often we use it simply as a proper name for Jesus as if it were His surname. "Christos" is the Greek form of the Hebrew word "Messiah", meaning "the anointed one". It was a title given to the Kings of Israel. David was a "messiah" and was a type, or forerunner, of the one who would deliver the people of Israel and establish the Kingdom of God. the coming of the Messiah is a common theme of OT prophecy. He was to be the "seed of Abraham" Gen 3:15; Gal 3:8,16, "the seed of Judah" Gen49:10; I Chron. 5:2, and the "seed of David" II Sam &:12~14; Isa 11:1,10;Rom.1:3;II Tim2:8. "Seed" in all these scriptures means "descendant" This points to the fact that the Messiah was prophesied to arise from the human race.

Nothing in the OT suggests that the promised seed was already in existence in another form. For Paul to have taught that the Messiah was personally present with Israel would have been a staggering contradiction of the words of the prophets. The second major objection to this theory is the fact that God used angels to minister to Israel.

The NT declares in three places that the law was given by angels, Acts7:38,53, Gal 3:9 & Heb2:2. In each of these passages the angelic giving of the Law forms an important part of the debate. Study each in its context with care and you will see that the common theme is the superiority of the Gospel to the Law. The Law was given only by angels but the Gospel was brought by the Son of God and is therefore vastly superior to it. Christ could not have had any part, therefore, either in giving the Law to Israel, or in ministering to the Israelites in the wilderness. Since the Messiah could not have been present personally in the wilderness, Paul's statement must mean that the Rock represented or typified Christ in some way. It is not uncommon for Scripture to use the verb "to be" in a representational sense. Jesus said "I am the Door" Jn 10:7, "I am the true Vine" Jn 15:1. In the instution of the Lord's supper he said that the bread "is my body" and the cup "is my blood" I Cor11:24,25, clearly meant that they symbolized his broken body and shed blood.

This interpretation is strengthened by a close study of the whole passage from verse 1 to verse 11 of 1 Corinthians 10. Twice Paul states that the experiences of Israel were examples for us (vv.6,11). the Greek word used here actually means "types". The passing of the Israelites through the cloud and through the Red Sea was a type of Christian baptism. They were baptized "into Moses" (v. 2, NASB) as we are baptized "into Christ" (Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27). Verses 3 and 4 continue the typological parallel by referring to the incidents of the giving of the manna in Exodus 16, and the incidents at Rephidim and Kadesh when God miraculously supplied water out of a rock (Ex. 17:1-7; Num. 20: 1-13). The "spiritual" food mentioned in verse 3 is clearly the manna miraculously given daily to Israel over a period of 40 years. The giving of the manna is recorded in Exodus 16 and forms the background to John 6.

There are two incidents involving a rock recorded during the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites and it is important to notice the difference between them. The first incident occurred just after the miraculous giving of the manna. Israel arrived at Rephidim (Ex. 17:1) and immediately began to complain about lack of water, whereupon God commanded Moses to strike the rock. Water gushed out and the people's thirst was satisfied. The striking of the rock typifies the fact that Christ our Rock was smitten for us. The miraculous giving of the water typifies the giving of the Holy Spirit, the water of Life (John 7:37-39).

The second incident occurred toward the end of the wandering in the wilderness. Again, Israel complained for lack of water and again God provided for their needs. This time, however, he clearly instructed Moses to speak to the rock, but in his anger Moses disobeyed and struck the rock twice (Num. 20: 1-12). In smiting the rock instead of speaking to it Moses was guilty of destroying the type. The rock in Exodus 17 typified Christ in the flesh, smitten to give to us the water of life while the rock in Numbers 20 typified Christ our High Priest, not to be smitten twice (cp. Heb. 6:6), but only to be spoken to to supply the water of life.

The first incident occurred at the beginning of the wanderings, the second at the end; both incidents thus form a parable of Christ's continuous presence with his people during their "wilderness wanderings." The two incidents we have looked at took place in entirely different locations and there is a different Hebrew word for "rock" used in each place. In Exodus 17 the word is tsur and in Numbers 20 it is sela.

So what does Paul mean when he states that "they drank of that spiritual rock which followed them"? Obviously, a literal rock did not accompany Israel through the wilderness and many feel that this is proof that Christ himself went with them. The answer is that Paul is using the language of Christian experience and reading it back into the Old Testament type. This is shown clearly by his reference to baptism in verses 1 and 2. The Israelites were not literally "baptized". In fact, we are told that the water did not come near them; they walked dryshod through the Red Sea. But their experience is a close enough parallel for Paul to say they were baptized "into Moses". Likewise the rock did not literally follow them. It was simply a type of Christ accompanying us through life.

Well, this is about the best I can do to help you understand this topic. I hope it helps.

Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ = all that He has spoken?

 

[ProDeo]

No…..it’s the same word that was used in John 1:1 (theos)….it is not a word that means only “God” with a capital “G”…..it is a word that is descriptive of any divine personage or a representative of that one.

In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God! [New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (2013 Revision)]
In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God! [New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1984 Edition)]
In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God! [New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)]

But in 3 JW translations God it is written with a capital "G", how come?

And regarding John 1:1 - now written in lower case ?
In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God! [New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (2013 Revision)]
In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God! [New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1984 Edition)]
In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God! [New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)]

But In 3 JW translations God it is written with a capital "G", how come?

Thomas was one of the 12…correct? Did he have a different view of God to the rest of the apostles?

Paul, speaking for all the apostles said….at 1 Cor 8:5-6…
”For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; AND there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”

It seems rather a clear statement that the apostles were in no doubt as to who was their God, and who was their Lord…..and the Holy Spirit is missing as usual. (John 17:3)

“Theos“ is a title like “Adonai”…..since these are both titles of respect, why not a capital letter? Trinitarian scholars use them all the time despite the fact that the Greek has no capital letters….
Thomas was uttering an exclamation, in shock that the Christ was alive, after knowing that he was executed…he was unbelieving, so Jesus showed him the evidence of his wounds on a couple of occasions, but the rest of the time there was no mention of them. He was tortured extensively on the night before his death. And as God is the one who resurrected him, how come he was not healed of those wounds?
Can you explain? Did Jesus take a damaged body to heaven?