THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

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David in NJ

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My argument is with the Council of Nicaea, who proposed the Trinity Doctrine.

The plural form of God in Genesis -- elohim -- was borrowed from the Babylonians. Its usage in Genesis is NOT intended to indicate plurality. This often happens when a term is borrowed from another language and given a new meaning.

In this context, the term "word" or "logos" doesn't refer to a person. Here the apostle John recounts the creation to emphasize the idea that the origin of creation was a command. God spoke things into existence. The verbal pattern in Genesis chapter one includes the phrase: "And God said." No amount of force or power was required to bring creation into existence. God simply spoke and his will was done.

The Apostle indicates that God the Father is above all. In order for this to be true, and it is true, there can be no other. In other words, God the son is NOT the second person of an eternal Trinity. Paul declares that God the Father is above all, including Jesus.
The plural form of God in Genesis -- elohim -- was borrowed from the Babylonians. Its usage in Genesis is NOT intended to indicate plurality.

Dear @CadyandZoe,
How can you know Truth if you are looking to those who are lost and in the dark to find answers that can only be given to you from Above???

"Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = can you count to 3

In this context, the term "word" or "logos" doesn't refer to a person.
When you believe a lie you turn off the Light.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.
We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.



 
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JLB

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I agree. However, Paul is quoting that passage in order to justify the humanity of Jesus. The passage depicts the God speaking to a human son, not a second person of a Godhead.

The Son did not create the heavens and the earth. Rather, the heavens and the earth were created by the Father for the Son.

Sorry but the Son created the heavens and the earth.

The Father is saying to the Son:

  • Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
  • “You, LORD, (YHWH) in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


Here again we see the same words that Christ, the Spirit of Christ spoke out of the mouth of the prophet Zechariah -

Remember it was Christ, the Spirit of Christ who spoke through the mouth of the Old Testament prophets. 1 Peter 1:10-11



The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:… “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10





JLB
 
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IronMaiden

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RESURRECTION of the dead bodies in the earth.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Flesh bodies go back to the earth where they were made from.
Our spirit and soul goes to God where they came from and either go to Heaven or to Hell
Resurrection of dead flesh bodies? No such thing. sml
 

Scott Downey

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Resurrection of dead flesh bodies? No such thing. sml
Well, ok, however the dead are raised incorruptible and we will have a body like Christ when He was raised, and he said he was flesh and bone, but He also is able to disappear and come and go at will. His glorified body still has the marks in His hands and His side.

Luke 24:39 GW translation
Look at my hands and feet, and see that it’s really me. Touch me, and see for yourselves. Ghosts don’t have flesh and bones, but you can see that I do.”

Luke 24:39 NKJV
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

And it could be Jesus since He had not returned to the glory of the Father would be further changed. His raised body though could never die again.

1 Cor 15 GW
45 This is what Scripture says: “The first man, Adam, became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual does not come first, but the physical and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was made from the dust of the earth. He came from the earth. The second man came from heaven. 48 The people on earth are like the man who was made from the dust of the earth. The people in heaven are like the man who came from heaven. 49 As we have worn the likeness of the man who was made from the dust of the earth, we will also wear the likeness of the man who came from heaven. 50 Brothers and sisters, this is what I mean: Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. What decays cannot inherit what doesn’t decay.

51 I’m telling you a mystery. Not all of us will die, but we will all be changed. 52 It will happen in an instant, in a split second at the sound of the last trumpet. Indeed, that trumpet will sound, and then the dead will come back to life. They will be changed so that they can live forever. 53 This body that decays must be changed into a body that cannot decay. This mortal body must be changed into a body that will live forever. 54 When this body that decays is changed into a body that cannot decay, and this mortal body is changed into a body that will live forever, then the teaching of Scripture will come true:

“Death is turned into victory!
55 Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”
56 Sin gives death its sting, and God’s standards give sin its power. 57 Thank God that he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 So, then, brothers and sisters, don’t let anyone move you off the foundation ⌞of your faith⌟. Always excel in the work you do for the Lord. You know that the hard work you do for the Lord is not pointless.
 
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David in NJ

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Resurrection of dead flesh bodies? No such thing. sml
Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.


But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised.
 

IronMaiden

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Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.


But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised.
1 Corinthians 15:42-54 (NKJV) 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. [The body] is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man [was] of the earth, [made] of dust; the second Man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [was] the [man] of dust, so also [are] those [who are made] of dust; and as [is] the heavenly [Man,] so also [are] those [who are] heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the [man] of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [Man.] 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

So what happens when a person dies? They are "raised" into their spiritual bodies. There are TWO BODIES!—A physical flesh one you’ll have until it dies and turns to dust, and a spiritual one that you receive when the silver cord is parted (when you die).
 

MonoBiblical

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No. Your view is based on an early error among scholars that has since been corrected. Scholars originally thought that the root word of "monogenes" was "genos:birth" but they have since changed their minds. They now think that the root word is "genea" which refers to race, generation, kind, class.

As such, translations used to say "only begotten" or "only born" or "only child." Given this new scholarship, many translations now reflect this correction -- Jesus is the "one-of-a-kind" son.

The point is this, out of all of the kings of Israel who sat on the throne of David, Jesus is a unique, one-of-a-kind king.
Israel is also called "only begotten". What do you think of that?
 

Scott Downey

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1 Corinthians 15:42-54 (NKJV) 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. [The body] is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man [was] of the earth, [made] of dust; the second Man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [was] the [man] of dust, so also [are] those [who are made] of dust; and as [is] the heavenly [Man,] so also [are] those [who are] heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the [man] of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [Man.] 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

So what happens when a person dies? They are "raised" into their spiritual bodies. There are TWO BODIES!—A physical flesh one you’ll have until it dies and turns to dust, and a spiritual one that you receive when the silver cord is parted (when you die).
So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. [The body] is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The teaching here is about the resurrection. You would not say when a person dies they are immediately resurrected into a glorified body.

The resurrection happens on the Last Day when Christ returns.
 

Scott Downey

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Christ returns on the Last Day
And the dead are raised incorruptible into their glorified bodies.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 
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David in NJ

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1 Corinthians 15:42-54 (NKJV) 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. [The body] is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man [was] of the earth, [made] of dust; the second Man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [was] the [man] of dust, so also [are] those [who are made] of dust; and as [is] the heavenly [Man,] so also [are] those [who are] heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the [man] of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [Man.] 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

So what happens when a person dies? They are "raised" into their spiritual bodies. There are TWO BODIES!—A physical flesh one you’ll have until it dies and turns to dust, and a spiritual one that you receive when the silver cord is parted (when you die).
We already have a spirit and soul now while we are in our physical bodies.

We LEAVE the physical body when the physical body dies and we go Home to the LORD if we belong to Him.

ONLY at His Second Coming do we receive the NEW Glorified Immortal Bodies = 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor ch15
 

Scott Downey

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38 For I came down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who has sent Me, that of all whom He has given Me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
 

IronMaiden

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So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. [The body] is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The teaching here is about the resurrection. You would not say when a person dies they are immediately resurrected into a glorified body.

The resurrection happens on the Last Day when Christ returns.
Yes, the first resurrection happens at the 7th trump when Jesus returns (the Second Coming). Everyone, everyone, everyone will be changed into a spiritual body that is incorruptible. But those who overcome (the elect) will go through the first resurrection at this time and will have immortal bodies. There’s a big difference between incorruptible and immortal bodies. We need to understand the difference between the resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the soul to immortality.
 

IronMaiden

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What else happens when Jesus returns at the 7th trump?

The Millennium begins.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I’m sure I explained this many times. Nothing about the trinity. And try reading the whole chapter to u understand the verse in context.

Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets.
2 And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe.
3 The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven.
4 This shows that the Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is greater than their names.

The Son Is Greater Than the Angels​

5 For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus:

You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father
.[a]”
God also said,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.”
[b]
6 And when he brought his supreme[c] Son into the world, God said,[d]

Now, getting to ‘o God,’ it an abbreviation for OF God. In no language is the preposition ‘OF’ synonymous with ‘IS.’

Finally, it is God’s throne no matter who sits in it. This is affirmed in Revelation 1:1. The resurrected Jesus, sitting on God’s throne in heaven is STILL not God! God gave Jesus the revelation.
You guys (@APAK, @Matthias also ) never answer these questions: Jesus was given His glory back after His mission, the glory He possessed before the foundation of the world existed! ( John 17:5)
> So what does that mean? What glory? What status ... an angel?

This glory that Jesus had and regained was ALL AUTHORITY in Heaven and on Earth!
Here's the final question:
Wouldn't it require omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence to have all authority ( power) in heaven and on earth??? Angels could not do this nor could the Father create someone else with equal powers and abilities as He has.
Chew on that for awhile.
 

IronMaiden

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We already have a spirit and soul now while we are in our physical bodies.

We LEAVE the physical body when the physical body dies and we go Home to the LORD if we belong to Him.

ONLY at His Second Coming do we receive the NEW Glorified Immortal Bodies = 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor ch15
Yes, but not everyone will go through the first resurrection, which is immortality, which is eternal life.
 

Scott Downey

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You guys (@APAK, @Matthias also ) never answer these questions: Jesus was given His glory back after His mission, the glory He possessed before the foundation of the world existed! ( John 17:5)
> So what does that mean? What glory? What status ... an angel?

This glory that Jesus had and regained was ALL AUTHORITY in Heaven and on Earth!
Here's the final question:
Wouldn't it require omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence to have all authority ( power) in heaven and on earth??? Angels could not do this nor could the Father create someone else with equal powers and abilities as He has.
Chew on that for awhile.
God also tells us He will not give His glory to another...in 2 places
God gives His glory back to Himself, to the Son who was in the form of God, but did not consider it robbery to be equal to God, who had humbled Himself to be born as a man.

Yet the Father glorifies Christ the Son and gives Him all authority and power in heaven and earth.

Christ comes in His own glory, in the Father's glory and in the glory of the holy angels, He has it all.

Luke 9:26
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.



Isaiah 48
9 “For My name’s sake I will [b]defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.

Isaiah 42
“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My [a]Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed He will not break,
And [b]smoking flax He will not [c]quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
5 Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,
7 To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the prison,
Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.
8 I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.
9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,
And new things I declare;
Before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
 
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Grailhunter

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The point is, "monogenes" doesn't mean "begun". It has nothing at all to do with birth or a beginning

LOL In the Greek it mean only begotton.
I know the Greek language, but this so funny I cannot resists playing with it.
So lets start with you putting the word you think it is in the verse.
John 3:16
 
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