THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[RLT63]

Agreed.

1:1
KJ21
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ASV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
AMP
In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
AMPC
In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
BRG
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
CSB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
CEB
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
CJB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
CEV
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.
DARBY
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
DLNT
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
DRA
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ERV
Before the world began, the Word was there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
EASY
In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God. The Word was God.
EHV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ESV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ESVUK
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
EXB
In the beginning [Gen. 1:1] ·there was the Word [the Word already existed; C the Word refers to Christ, God’s revelation of himself]. The Word was ·with [in the presence of; in intimate relationship with] God [C the Father], and the Word was [fully]God.

 

[Wrangler]

He is if He's the Son of God. Are you human like your father?

You are deliberately confusing generic types of life forms with a specific, Supreme Being, whose name is YHWH - not Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

EXB
In the beginning [Gen. 1:1] ·there was the Word [the Word already existed; C the Word refers to Christ, God’s revelation of himself]. The Word was ·with [in the presence of; in intimate relationship with] God [C the Father], and the Word was [fully]God

Eisegesis. Christ is most certainly not ‘the word’ and not one verse in all of Scripture makes this claim.

 

[RLT63]

GNV
That Word begotten of God before all worlds, 2 and which was ever with the Father, 14 is made man.  6, 7 For what end John was sent from God. 15 His preaching of Christ’s office. 19, 20 The record that he bare given out unto the Priests. 40 The calling of Andrew, 42 of Peter, 43 Philip, 45 and Nathanael. In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
GW
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
GNT
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
HCSB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ICB
Before the world began, there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ISV
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
PHILLIPS
At the beginning God expressed himself. That personal expression, that word, was with God, and was God, and he existed with God from the beginning. All creation took place through him, and none took place without him. In him appeared life and this life was the light of mankind. The light still shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out.
JUB
¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.
KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
AKJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
LSB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
LEB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
TLB
Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. He has always been alive and is himself God.
MSG
The Word was first, the Word present to God, God present to the Word. The Word was God, in readiness for God from day one.
MEV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
MOUNCE
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with · God, and the Word was God.
NOG
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NABRE
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASB1995
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NCB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NCV
In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NET
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
NIRV
In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NIVUK
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NKJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NLV
The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.
NLT
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NMB
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
NRSVA
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NRSVACE
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NRSVCE
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NRSVUE
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NTFE
In the beginning was the Word. The Word was close beside God, and the Word was God.
OJB
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:3], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with, etzel, Mishle 8:30;30:4) Hashem, and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13 i.e., the Ma’amar Memra]
RGT
In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.
RSV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
RSVCE
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
TLV
In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
VOICE
Before time itself was measured, the Voice was speaking. The Voice was and is God.
WEB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
WE
The Word already was, way back before anything began to be. The Word and God were together. The Word was God.
WYC
In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word. [In the beginning was the word, that is, God's Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word.]
YLT
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

Eisegesis. Christ is most certainly not ‘the word’ and not one verse in all of Scripture makes this claim.

I can post more versions, CB only allows posts to be so long.
Strange that all these versions have it wrong and you have it right

 

[RLT63]

Eisegesis. Christ is most certainly not ‘the word’ and not one verse in all of Scripture makes this claim.

John 1:14 does
Jhn 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

 

[Aunty Jane]

There's nothing in the above KJV that is archaic, and couldn't be readily understood by a child. If Christ created all things, He didn't create Himself.

I was given a KJV when I was 10 years old….I couldn’t understand it at all. No one I knew spoke like that. “Readily understood by a child”?….it’s not readily understood by many adults.

The “signs” that John gave (see John 20:30,31) were signs of Christ’s divinity. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he was led of God to show that Christ was the divine Son of God.

There is a difference between “divinity” and “deity”….”theos” is used of angels, human judges, false gods and Jesus Christ.
Strongs defines “theos” as….

1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

It can also mean….

1. spoken of the only and true God
   1. refers to the things of God
   2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
2. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      1. of magistrates and judges

So an interesting variety of meaning attached to the one word that trinitarians believe cannot mean anything but “God” with a capital “G”. Read in Greek it is a different story.

The use of the definite article (ho) in John 1:1, refers to Yahweh as the one the Word was “with”….but absence of the definite article in the second mention of “theos” demonstrates that this “theos” was not God…but divine, or divinely appointed. John 1:1 is a poor proof text, badly translated.

This can clearly be seen in his opening words: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1 In order to fulfil the purpose in writing his Gospel (that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God), the very first thing that the Holy Spirit led John to write was that Christ, in His pre-existence, “was God”.

But in actuality he didn’t. Christ in his pre human existence was “divine” (no question) but not “deity”….that would have been a breach of the first Commandment.
He was not worshipped by angels or men.
He never once said he was God, but only ever called himself “the son of God”.

From the outset therefore, John was saying to his readers that there are two divine personages who are both rightly termed God (Gr. Theos).

That is true, since the word “theos“ in Greek as stated above means….
“a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”…. It is not a word that pertains exclusively to Yahweh. Even satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:4.

to reinforce his opening words. He did this by saying that all things were made by the Word and without him was not any thing made that was made (John 1:3). Christ therefore, says John, is our Creator. This is the highest possible claim to divinity. Only divinity is not created. These are amongst the opening thoughts that John sought to impress on the minds of those who would read his Gospel.

No he did not call Christ our Creator….not one single scripture says that Jesus is the Creator….God is. He did so through his firstborn son, it’s called agency. The judges in Israel were sinful humans and God himself called them “theos”…..(John 10:31-36) What kind of “gods” were they? God’s representatives.
What did Jesus call himself…?

These truths, down through the centuries, have captivated the minds of the most able of the world’s theologians and scholars yet at the same time they have been understood by children. Its profundity lies in its simplicity of thought.

Anyone who thinks the trinity is simple never had to wade through a thread like this…! Theologians don’t even understand it, they can’t explain it, and have no scriptural evidence for it.

 

[Grailhunter]

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16


Thank you for proving that Jesus is God.

I get that and know that. The New Testament indicates that Christ is the Creator God and in Old Testament Yahweh makes it absolutely clear that He is the only God in the Old Testament. And the Mosaic Law would have them kill anybody if they preached different.
Contradiction? Misunderstanding?
When I am faced with something like this I assume that there is more to the story and pick the sure thing.

For example….Honor your father and mother and then Christ said you have to hate your mother and father to be a disciple. Well I am going to go with that there is something more to the story and go with honor your father and mother.

Same thing goes with it is easier for camel to go through the eye of a needle than for rich man to go heaven. I going to believe there is more to the story and believe rich people can go to heaven just like you and I.

 

[Heart2Soul]

You, me , everyone of us are in Christ’s Spirit..Born Again?

We are all one in Christ, the body of believers.Born Again.

I don't think it is possible to in Christ unless you are born again of His spirit. Here is what Ephesians says. Ephesians 4 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
² With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
³ Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
⁴ There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
⁵ One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
⁶ One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Only one is explicitly called God, not ‘in spirit’ but actuality. In fact, it is explicitly taught ‘there is one God, the Father.’ It is difficult to imagine a stronger anti-trinitarian statement. I challenge you to come up with a stronger anti-trintarian statement in as few a words.

I don't get your argument. I am only pointing out how individual each of them are.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Are you serious? How does a dismembered body function? The body of Christ must be united as Paul said…
1 Cor 1:10….
”Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
By what stretch of whose imagination does Christendom fit that description? Could it be more disunited?

These are definitely in union with one another…..but there is no scripture that says all three are God.
If there was a direct statement from either God or his son that they were equally deity along with the Holy Spirit, then surely it would be an unequivocal statement…but this issue still rages because there is not one verse where Jesus and his Father and the Holy Spirit are said to be equally God. There are many suggestions about badly translated verses, but nothing even close to a direct statement. If there was we would have no argument.

Each are identified as separate, but again the unity never states that these three are one and the same God….how does one part of God not know what another part of the same being knows?

How can one part of God have a different will to his other self?

How is it that one part of God can be a “mediator between God and men” and still be God? Why don’t we need a mediator between us and Jesus?

Is there no logic that can counter the indoctrination that goes with this ingrained belief, centuries old….but which was never true?

I have to wonder

Are you serious? How does a dismembered body function? The body of Christ must be united as Paul said…
1 Cor 1:10….
”Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
By what stretch of whose imagination does Christendom fit that description? Could it be more disunited?

These are definitely in union with one another…..but there is no scripture that says all three are God.
If there was a direct statement from either God or his son that they were equally deity along with the Holy Spirit, then surely it would be an unequivocal statement…but this issue still rages because there is not one verse where Jesus and his Father and the Holy Spirit are said to be equally God. There are many suggestions about badly translated verses, but nothing even close to a direct statement. If there was we would have no argument.

Each are identified as separate, but again the unity never states that these three are one and the same God….how does one part of God not know what another part of the same being knows?

How can one part of God have a different will to his other self?

How is it that one part of God can be a “mediator between God and men” and still be God? Why don’t we need a mediator between us and Jesus?

Is there no logic that can counter the indoctrination that goes with this ingrained belief, centuries old….but which was never true?

I have to wonder if you hear yourselves?

I don't think you understood my post.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Strange that all these versions have it wrong and you have it right

Not strange really when you realize that they are all English translations that were translated by trinitarians.

Read that verse in Greek and see what they left out….one small word was omitted that changed the meaning of the whole verse.

”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE God( (no theos) and the Word was god (theos)

The Word was “theos” not “ho theos”…..two very different persons. One a deity the other of divine origin and with divine authority….not both God. (Capital “G”)
Jesus is never referred to as “ho theos” (Yahweh)

 

[Taken]

Scripture tells us represent that Jesus is a man, human.

Being a son, Jesus is a created Being.

If an Angel is called a man, Is that Angel a human?

If a human woman is called a man, is that woman a man?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't think you understood my post.

If you read my response, I addressed what you posted…..

You said….

“The body of Christ, all functioning separately but as one. This suggests to me that we are one in "spirit".
And in the same way are Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Functioning separately as one.
When the disciples asked Jesus when the end would come and He would return again He said only the Father knows...not even did He know when that day would come. So this suggests they are separate in knowing all things. Only the Father knows when that day will come. Only the Father is called Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscience....only Jesus is called the Lamb of God, Savior, and Lion of Judah. Only the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth, manifests the Gifts of the Spirit, and bears the Fruit of the Spirit.
Each are identified separately yet all three are unified as one.”

I answered your statements one at a time….as you wrote them. You said “we” which includes some members here but certainly not others.
Calling yourself a Christian doesn’t make you one….any more than calling yourself a doctor makes you a physician.

We cannot declare something that is based on suggestion, to be gospel truth.

The unity of Father, son and Holy Spirit, is not a three in one godhead….nowhere does the Bible say that these three are one God. They are unified in purpose, but not three separate beings who operate individually and independently in different locations.
Assumptions are not facts…only clear declarations can be presented as fact.

They are identified separately because they are spoken about separately in scripture…..but never as one singular entity. Someone ‘married’ them….but it wasn’t God, or Christ, or the holy spirit….it was an apostate church, hundreds of years after Christ died.

 

[RLT63]

Not strange really when you realize that they are all English translations that were translated by trinitarians.

Read that verse in Greek and see what they left out….one small word was omitted that changed the meaning of the whole verse.

”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE God( (no theos) and the Word was god (theos)

The Word was “theos” not “ho theos”…..two very different persons. One a deity the other of divine origin and with divine authority….not both God. (Capital “G”)
Jesus is never referred to as “ho theos” (Yahweh)

You disagree with the other poster who says Jesus is not the Word?

 

[Ritajanice]

You disagree with the other poster who says Jesus is not the Word?

The word is God..Jesus spread the word..the word became flesh, doesn’t make him God.

The word has been there from the beginning. He is God..not Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

I can post more versions, CB only allows posts to be so long.
Strange that all these versions have it wrong and you have it right

Posting more translations does not strengthen your argument one little bit. It's not that any of these translations are wrong but anyone reading Jesus into John 1:1 is a fraud. It's simply not there.

Let me ask you this, which I am sure I already have. If your take on John 1:1 is correct, why is the trinity not in John's purpose statement @ 20:31?
But these are written so that you may continue to believe[a] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life by the power of his name.

Nothing about Jesus being God or the word. The whole reason you have to read it into 1:1 is the trinity is not in the Bible.

 

[Ritajanice]

Nothing about Jesus being God or the word. The whole reason you have to read it into 1:1 is the trinity is not in the Bible.

Would you say that God is the word?

I believe that.

 

[Wrangler]

John 1:14 does
Jhn 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

Again, no. It says the word was made flesh, not that God was made flesh. This fulfills Deuteronomy 18:15-18, which says nothing about God incarnate but rather that God will put his word into one of the people that he chooses.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't get your argument. I am only pointing out how individual each of them are.

I was addressing the oneness claim. They cannot be one, while at the same time only one of them is God.

 

[RLT63]

The word is God..Jesus spread the word..the word became flesh, doesn’t make him God.

The word has been there from the beginning. He is God..not Jesus.

Okay you say the Word is God, so God became flesh?
John 1:14

 

[RLT63]

Posting more translations does not strengthen your argument one little bit. It's not that any of these translations are wrong but anyone reading Jesus into John 1:1 is a fraud. It's simply not there.

Let me ask you this, which I am sure I already have. If your take on John 1:1 is correct, why is the trinity not in John's purpose statement @ 20:31?
But these are written so that you may continue to believe[a] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life by the power of his name.

Nothing about Jesus being God or the word. The whole reason you have to read it into 1:1 is the trinity is not in the Bible.

Verse 14 and 15 confirm that Jesus is the Word.

Tools

Jhn 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten ofthe Father,) full of grace andtruth.
Tools

Jhn 1:15 - John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me

Who did John bear witness of?
Who became flesh?
Jesus is the Word, the same Word in verse 1