THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[David in NJ]

Noone is what it says, the meaning is no man does.

Correct

We hear the Gospel in our physical ears but we cannot understand it.
It is the FATHER via the Holy Spirit by which the SEED of the Word(Parable of the Sower) that is planted inside our womb of our heart.
In the heart of man is where the Holy Spirit does His Work via the WORD spoken to us.
All THREE are involved in the New Birth.

Here in the Gospel is a visual of this exact Working:

When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah,
for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

 

[Scott Downey]

Correct

We hear the Gospel in our physical ears but we cannot understand it.
It is the FATHER via the Holy Spirit by which the SEED of the Word(Parable of the Sower) that is planted inside our womb of our heart.
In the heart of man is where the Holy Spirit does His Work via the WORD spoken to us.
All THREE are involved in the New Birth.

Here in the Gospel is a visual of this exact Working:

When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah,
for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

He actually does do a work inside of us so that we are changed. A change so that we can hear and believe in Christ as to whom He is.
Man is spiritually dead in his fallen state.
Jesus said let the dead bury the dead, there is no life there.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

The flesh profits nothing, the flesh is man, He cannot know God unless God speaks life to his spirit and makes him alive on the inside so then he can know Christ, the Father does not teach the dead but the living.

Man got separated from God in Eden, to bring men back to God, God made a living bridge in Christ to join men and God together again. God gives life to them that are dead so they can know the truth and worship in spirit and in truth.

Jesus gives life to whom He will

John 5
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

 

[Brakelite]

I’m afraid I ditched the old KJV many years ago as a dead language for a different generation who spoke a very different English language.
In order to understand the Bible it must be read in the language you speak….I do not speak archaic English and neither does anyone I know. It’s phrasing is confusing as are its outdated terminologies. Language evokes and we must evolve with it.
So because I am a keen Bible student, I study the Bible not theology. I study the meaning of words in their original languages because it reveals so much when you see the same word translated into different passages, enhancing their meaning in a fuller sense.

Context is everything, so what about Heb 1:1-4 for context…
“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. (NASB)

What is this telling us? God used his prophets to speak with his people, (Israel) in Bible times, but in the Christian Era, he has used his son to inform us of what we need to believe and practice. The need for prophets and angelic visitations was over. All that was necessary for salvation was taught by God’s son and those he chose as apostles.…all written in God’s word for our instruction.
In Heb 3:1 Paul calls Jesus an “apostle”…meaning “one sent forth”. Who sent Jesus? (John 17:3)

So what do we see there in the following verses? The son reflected his Father’s glory and was “the exact representation of his nature”. A reflection is not the original but is like it. The man in the mirror is a reflection of you, but it isn’t you.
So after his earthly mission was successfully completed, he returned to where he was before, at God’s right hand. (John 6:62) Interestingly, the Holy Spirit is never said to sit at his left.….so where is three?

And how is Jesus (if he is God) made “better than the angels” and how is he “given a name more excellent than theirs”? If you want context…..care to explain?

You said much but informed little. And you deliberately obfuscated and behind all the fluff, tried to hide the most important part, whether KJV, NASB, or Amplified, they all say similar...
has in these last days spoken [with finality] to us in [the person of One who is by His character and nature] His Son [namely Jesus], whom He appointed heir and lawful owner of all things, through whom also He created the universe [that is, the universe as a space-time-matter continuum].‭ AMPL.

“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; ”
Hebrews 1:2 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

‭
‭but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. NIV

And then there's this‭...

“16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. ”
Colossians 1:16-17 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

There's nothing in the above KJV that is archaic, and couldn't be readily understood by a child. If Christ created all things, He didn't create Himself.

The “signs” that John gave (see John 20:30,31) were signs of Christ’s divinity. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he was led of God to show that Christ was the divine Son of God. This can clearly be seen in his opening words: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1 In order to fulfil the purpose in writing his Gospel (that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God), the very first thing that the Holy Spirit led John to write was that Christ, in His pre-existence, “was God”. From the outset therefore, John was saying to his readers that there are two divine personages who are both rightly termed God (Gr. Theos). This was the opening thrust of his Gospel. John then proceeded to reinforce his opening words. He did this by saying that all things were made by the Word and without him was not any thing made that was made (John 1:3). Christ therefore, says John, is our Creator. This is the highest possible claim to divinity. Only divinity is not created. These are amongst the opening thoughts that John sought to impress on the minds of those who would read his Gospel. First he shows that Christ is God (1:1). Secondly he shows that Christ was in the beginning with God (1:2). Thirdly he says that Christ is our Creator (1:3). These opening words are the very foundation for everything else he would write. It is said that John’s Gospel is written in easy-to-understand Greek – also that he uses a comparatively small vocabulary of around 600 words. This having been said, its simplicity contains the most profound truths given to man. These truths, down through the centuries, have captivated the minds of the most able of the world’s theologians and scholars yet at the same time they have been understood by children. Its profundity lies in its simplicity of thought.

 

[David in NJ]

He actually does do a work inside of us so that we are changed. A change so that we can hear and believe in Christ as to whom He is.
Man is spiritually dead in his fallen state.
Jesus said let the dead bury the dead, there is no life there.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

The flesh profits nothing, the flesh is man, He cannot know God unless God speaks life to his spirit and makes him alive on the inside so then he can know Christ, the Father does not teach the dead but the living.

Man got separated from God in Eden, to bring men back to God, God made a living bridge in Christ to join men and God together again. God gives life to them that are dead so they can know the truth and worship in spirit and in truth.

Jesus gives life to whom He will

John 5
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

What is AMAZING is that we can SEE all THREE, Father/Son/Holy Spirit bringing Salvation

You said much but informed little. And you deliberately obfuscated and behind all the fluff, tried to hide the most important part, whether KJV, NASB, or Amplified, they all say similar...
has in these last days spoken [with finality] to us in [the person of One who is by His character and nature] His Son [namely Jesus], whom He appointed heir and lawful owner of all things, through whom also He created the universe [that is, the universe as a space-time-matter continuum].‭ AMPL.

“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; ”
Hebrews 1:2 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

‭
‭but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. NIV

And then there's this‭...

“16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. ”
Colossians 1:16-17 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

There's nothing in the above KJV that is archaic, and couldn't be readily understood by a child. If Christ created all things, He didn't create Himself.

The “signs” that John gave (see John 20:30,31) were signs of Christ’s divinity. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he was led of God to show that Christ was the divine Son of God. This can clearly be seen in his opening words: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1 In order to fulfil the purpose in writing his Gospel (that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God), the very first thing that the Holy Spirit led John to write was that Christ, in His pre-existence, “was God”. From the outset therefore, John was saying to his readers that there are two divine personages who are both rightly termed God (Gr. Theos). This was the opening thrust of his Gospel. John then proceeded to reinforce his opening words. He did this by saying that all things were made by the Word and without him was not any thing made that was made (John 1:3). Christ therefore, says John, is our Creator. This is the highest possible claim to divinity. Only divinity is not created. These are amongst the opening thoughts that John sought to impress on the minds of those who would read his Gospel. First he shows that Christ is God (1:1). Secondly he shows that Christ was in the beginning with God (1:2). Thirdly he says that Christ is our Creator (1:3). These opening words are the very foundation for everything else he would write. It is said that John’s Gospel is written in easy-to-understand Greek – also that he uses a comparatively small vocabulary of around 600 words. This having been said, its simplicity contains the most profound truths given to man. These truths, down through the centuries, have captivated the minds of the most able of the world’s theologians and scholars yet at the same time they have been understood by children. Its profundity lies in its simplicity of thought.

This having been said, its simplicity contains the most profound truths given to man.

Salvation contained in a Children's Book = Simply Genius

 

[Brakelite]

You said much but informed little. And you deliberately obfuscated and behind all the fluff, tried to hide the most important part, whether KJV, NASB, or Amplified, they all say similar...
has in these last days spoken [with finality] to us in [the person of One who is by His character and nature] His Son [namely Jesus], whom He appointed heir and lawful owner of all things, through whom also He created the universe [that is, the universe as a space-time-matter continuum].‭ AMPL.

“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; ”
Hebrews 1:2 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

‭
‭but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. NIV

And then there's this‭...

“16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. ”
Colossians 1:16-17 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

There's nothing in the above KJV that is archaic, and couldn't be readily understood by a child. If Christ created all things, He didn't create Himself.

The “signs” that John gave (see John 20:30,31) were signs of Christ’s divinity. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he was led of God to show that Christ was the divine Son of God. This can clearly be seen in his opening words: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1 In order to fulfil the purpose in writing his Gospel (that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God), the very first thing that the Holy Spirit led John to write was that Christ, in His pre-existence, “was God”. From the outset therefore, John was saying to his readers that there are two divine personages who are both rightly termed God (Gr. Theos). This was the opening thrust of his Gospel. John then proceeded to reinforce his opening words. He did this by saying that all things were made by the Word and without him was not any thing made that was made (John 1:3). Christ therefore, says John, is our Creator. This is the highest possible claim to divinity. Only divinity is not created. These are amongst the opening thoughts that John sought to impress on the minds of those who would read his Gospel. First he shows that Christ is God (1:1). Secondly he shows that Christ was in the beginning with God (1:2). Thirdly he says that Christ is our Creator (1:3). These opening words are the very foundation for everything else he would write. It is said that John’s Gospel is written in easy-to-understand Greek – also that he uses a comparatively small vocabulary of around 600 words. This having been said, its simplicity contains the most profound truths given to man. These truths, down through the centuries, have captivated the minds of the most able of the world’s theologians and scholars yet at the same time they have been understood by children. Its profundity lies in its simplicity of thought.

Having said all that, one does not have to believe in a trinity in order to accept the above. The Trinity, however one describes it, or whatever version it may take, is not necessary in order to prove that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and Creator of all things, is rightly called God and is therefore equal to the Father in all things except rank.

 

[David in NJ]

Having said all that, one does not have to believe in a trinity in order to accept the above. The Trinity, however one describes it, or whatever version it may take, is not necessary in order to prove that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and Creator of all things, is rightly called God and is therefore equal to the Father in all things except rank.

And here is your proof text - Acts 4:12

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven(LJC) given among men by which we must be saved.”

 

[Wrangler]

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Does that make John God also?

 

[Wrangler]

Having said all that, one does not have to believe in a trinity in order to accept the above … is not necessary in order to prove that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and Creator of all things, is rightly called God and is therefore equal to the Father in all things except rank.

Jesus cannot be Creator of all things AND the son, which is a created being, by definition.

Given that Jesus is not equal to God in rank, he is not equal to God.

 

[Wrangler]

Each are identified separately yet all three are unified as one.

in "spirit".

Only one is explicitly called God, not ‘in spirit’ but actuality. In fact, it is explicitly taught ‘there is one God, the Father.’ It is difficult to imagine a stronger anti-trinitarian statement. I challenge you to come up with a stronger anti-trintarian statement in as few a words.

 

[Wrangler]

How is it that one part of God can be a “mediator between God and men” and still be God? Why don’t we need a mediator between us and Jesus?

Is there no logic that can counter the indoctrination that goes with this ingrained belief, centuries old….but which was never true?

There is no logical refuting this. All they can do is Appeal to Dualism.

 

[JLB]

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16


Thank you for proving that Jesus is God.

 

[JLB]

Impossible. Otherwise, there would be no Father.

You need to take up your disagreement of the scriptures with the LORD.


For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16

 

[Wrangler]

So there are two mentioned here, not three…and only one is God….the Father. Was Paul telling lies?

Concisely stated. I look forward to his mental gymnastics response.

 

[Wrangler]

If the divine name had been retained, the trinity would never have surfaced.
John 1:1 would read….
”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine.”

Agreed.

 

[Wrangler]

Christ is the eternally blessed God who is over all...

Anti-Scriptural. Jesus died, proving he is not eternal. And there is no ‘God, the Son’ verse.

Finally, why is it important to believe in the trinity, according to Scripture? Since the trinity is not in Scripture, why believing the trinity is important is not in Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.

You believe this is an accurate translation?

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus cannot be Creator of all things AND the son, which is a created being, by definition.

Given that Jesus is not equal to God in rank, he is not equal to God.

He is if He's the Son of God. Are you human like your father? Do you outrank him? Does your lesser rank mean you cease to be human? Why should the Son of God's lesser rank mean He ceases to be God?

As for Mediator. He needs to be both human and divine. Like the ladder Jacob saw. Reaches earth and the throne of God. And why not His Son? No one is suggesting that the Father and the Son are the same person, so He isn't mediating between himself and man. He mediating between the Father and man. The objection of Jane's is simply clever semantics, it isn't the "gotcha" you fellas would like, because you are still ignoring the mountain of evidence that does give positive support for Christ's divinity... His pre-existent Sonship being the greatest.

 

[Brakelite]

In His gospel, John did establish the deity of Christ but it was also to show that a divine person had truly become flesh (truly human) – also that this personage was none other than the divine Son of God (see John 20:30-31). This was in opposition to many (like the Docetae) who at the time of him writing his gospel said that Jesus only ‘appeared’ to be human. It was also written in opposition to those (like Cerinthus) who were saying Christ was not really divine. As John wrote “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” John 20:30-31 Notice that John did not say he had written his gospel to show that Jesus was God – - or to say that He was divine or to show that He was ‘God the Son’ (as say the trinitarians) – but that he had written it so that we “might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God”. The above then leads its readers to conclude It would have been incredible that this Jewish writer. John the apostle would have attributed the title of Deity to someone he considered a created being.

 

[Wrangler]

Humans are created.
Jesus was not created.

Scripture tells us represent that Jesus is a man, human.

Being a son, Jesus is a created Being.

 

[Wrangler]

He is if He's the Son of God.

An assertion contrary to Scripture.