14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

[Ronald Nolette]

Why would you ask "please show where comparative language is used" after already claiming it's "not there"? Objective scholars don't pass judgment before the evidence has a chance to speak:

• "There was a certain rich man..." in Luke 16 is comparative language to other parables which also use "There was a certain man" or "A certain man..." etc.
• "And in hell he lift up his eyes in torment" in Luke 16 is comparative language to the parable of the Unmerciful Servant where he also winds up in torment.
• "And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus...desiring to be fed" is comparative language to the "poor and maimed" who were called to replace the "chosen ones" in the parable of the Great Supper.

As for your claim that "Jesus would never entertain false doctrine nor use it to explain things" - the fact that Jesus knows full well that conscious talking dead people don't exist didn't prevent Him from using the imagery to warn the Jews of their impending downfall any more so than His knowledge that multi-head, multi-horn beasts rising from the Earth and sea don't exist prevent Him from using the imagery to warn the church of the coming eschatological climax...right or wrong?

YOu do not even know what comparative language means! It is used in one or two sentences in one context to show that one thing is being compared to another in the same narrative. You fail here.

as to your point one. In the parables that use that phrase, it also is written it is a parable, this one does not say it is a parable-- you fail.

As for two and three of your defense- you are grasping at straws in a misuse of what comparative language does.

As for Jesus knowing the dead speak and live?

He had fellowship with Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration.

Also:

The Saducees are similar in belief to you in that they believe teh dead are dead and have no concsiousness. They differe in they deny any physical resurrection. but look at how Jesus tears down their false doctrine which is similar to yours:

Matthew 22:23-32

King James Version

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23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The only doctrine we share with JWs is that the soul is mortal, and I'm sure a closer inspection would reveal a not so commonality. Yes, we also teach "Michael the Archangel is Jesus" - but that's where the similarity ends. They totally twist this once widely accepted Bible doctrine into an unBiblical heresy - we don't.

So you are a kissing cousin of the JW's. what is your sect called.

How about you do a little research?
The "Intertestamental Period" Jews were as consumed with ecumenicalism as you "protestants" are, what with all the doctrines you guys now share Mother Rome to one degree or another, including Immortal Soul, Eternal Torment, Cheap Grace, Cheap Baptism, Desacralization, Christmas, Easter, and the most objectionable one of all, SUNDAY SACREDNESS.

Well as my denomination has no interest in Ecumenism- your accusation is false. the trinity was known long before Romanism held sway of the church, eternal torment is in the bible as written as I also showed you. We abhor cheap grace and cheap baptism. Can't answer for I sdo not know what desacralization is. As for Easter and Christmas, they are perfextly legitimate celebrations if done in honor of Jesus. Paul wrote this to refute your identical Watchtower doctrine:

Romans 14

King James Version

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14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

And I am sure you will throw out the identical argument the watchtower uses about trees and bunnies etc. This is all straining at gnats to swallow a camel.

If people worship Saturnalia and Bacchus and Ashtaroth then it is evil, but things are just things, the only value a thing can have is what a person ascribes to it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Your thread is false, like much of your theology. You'll find out soon enough. That's enough for me, I'm done.

What, you running away without answering my question? Typical. We SDAs NEVER cut and run and leave a challenged unanswered.

 

[Phoneman777]

YOu do not even know what comparative language means! It is used in one or two sentences in one context to show that one thing is being compared to another in the same narrative. You fail here.

as to your point one. In the parables that use that phrase, it also is written it is a parable, this one does not say it is a parable-- you fail.

As for two and three of your defense- you are grasping at straws in a misuse of what comparative language does.

As for Jesus knowing the dead speak and live?

He had fellowship with Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration.

Also:

The Saducees are similar in belief to you in that they believe teh dead are dead and have no concsiousness. They differe in they deny any physical resurrection. but look at how Jesus tears down their false doctrine which is similar to yours:

Matthew 22:23-32​

​

King James Version​

​

​

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

You don't care about hermeneutical consistency. If the Rich Man and Lazarus and Abraham have bodies after they're dead but before the resurrection, Jesus is a liar as well as Paul, because Paul only describes TWO kinds of bodies, and Jesus said that when the whole body is cast into hellfire, it's at the END OF THE WORLD - not at death.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well as my denomination has no interest in Ecumenism- your accusation is false.

Then why to you teach Jesuit eschatology?

the trinity was known long before Romanism held sway of the church

There is no "trinity" which says "God is one being".
The KJV describes the "Godhead" as 3 Beings/1 God, just as ice/water/steam is all H2O. "There are Three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these Three are One". - 1 John 5:7 KJV (Graihunter will tell you this verse wasn't in the oldest NT MSS but he doesn't understand it was REMOVED by Origen and Eusibius and the rest of the New Ecumenical Bible crew. Letters from ECFs sent to one another which are OLDER than the oldest Bible MSS contain references to verses THAT APPEAR IN LATER MSS BUT ARE MISSING IN EARLY MSS.)

, eternal torment is in the bible as written as I also showed you.

If the wages of sin is "eternal torment" the only way Jesus could deliver us from that punishment is if He suffered eternal torment.

He suffered death, the same death all who rebel against the truth will suffer.

We abhor cheap grace and cheap baptism.

The pope would like to have a word with you...

Can't answer for I sdo not know what desacralization is.

Making profane that which God has sanctified - you can catholicism spit on the holy Sabbath and partake of menu items which God has deeded "unclean" instead of sticking with what has been "sanctified" for use as food in Leviticus 11.

As for Easter and Christmas, they are perfextly legitimate celebrations if done in honor of Jesus. Paul wrote this to refute your identical Watchtower doctrine:

Wrong - they are papan things Paul never condoned.

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

We all know Paul's #1 battle was Judaizing Jewish converts who wanted to put Christians under the Mosaic Law of ceremonies and sacrifices. Paul is simply saying sticking to Feast Days menu items is now optional since type met Antitype.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Again, Paul's talking about the 7 YEARLY CEREMONIAL FEAST DAY SABBATHS of the Mosaic Law which were nailed to the Cross, not the weekly Sabbath of the Ten Commandments which "stand fast forever and ever".

And I am sure you will throw out the identical argument the watchtower uses about trees and bunnies etc. This is all straining at gnats to swallow a camel.

I abhor JW doctrines and publications, especially the "Sunday sacredness" they share with you and catholicism. The Watchtowers are filled with subliminal images.

If people worship Saturnalia and Bacchus and Ashtaroth then it is evil, but things are just things, the only value a thing can have is what a person ascribes to it.

The Bible says in Hebrews 4:9 Peshitta, "It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath".

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

What, you running away without answering my question? Typical. We SDAs NEVER cut and run and leave a challenged unanswered.

Challenge? Lol ... no, a waste of time.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You don't care about hermeneutical consistency. If the Rich Man and Lazarus and Abraham have bodies after they're dead but before the resurrection, Jesus is a liar as well as Paul, because Paul only describes TWO kinds of bodies, and Jesus said that when the whole body is cast into hellfire, it's at the END OF THE WORLD - not at death.

Well we d o not know what kind of bodies they have do we? they could be the ephemeral spirit bodies in torment and paradise. You worry about things that matter not a whit.

And the place of torments is not the lake of fire. The enitre lost person will be tossed into the lake of fire, body, soul and spirit.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There is no "trinity" which says "God is one being".
The KJV describes the "Godhead" as 3 Beings/1 God, just as ice/water/steam is all H2O. "There are Three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these Three are One". - 1 John 5:7 KJV (Graihunter will tell you this verse wasn't in the oldest NT MSS but he doesn't understand it was REMOVED by Origen and Eusibius and the rest of the New Ecumenical Bible crew. Letters from ECFs sent to one another which are OLDER than the oldest Bible MSS contain references to verses THAT APPEAR IN LATER MSS BUT ARE MISSING IN EARLY MSS.)

YOu are almost there with the ice comparison. H2O is one chemical compound that exists in three separate and distinct forms, ice, water, vapor. Same with God. God is one nature that exists in three separate identities, Father, son and Holy Spirit!

Yes I agree that 1 JOhn 5:7 may be a note added to the body of Scripture, but that doesn't alter the fact that Godness is one and manifested in 3

 

[ReChoired]

ok dokey.... we;ll count you among those that believe Jesus lied.

Luke 16:19​

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:​

Jesus specifically said "There was a certain rich man" indicating He was speaking of the experiences of an actual real life person.

Claiming and believing Jesus was a liar.... ends very badly as you will find out

Hello Dan Clarkson,

The response you have given has several incorrect assumptions.

[1] It assumes that the original OP, and author thereof, has malevolent motive, and claiming Jesus lied. I see nowhere in the OP that this is the case. The assumption, and imputation to such an evil motive is not factual, and accuses the OP and author unjustly. This is not Christ-like. I believe you should apologize in humilty.​

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[2] It assumes that the original OP author believes Jesus was a liar, and so lied, which would make Jesus a sinner, and violated the 9th Commandment (Exo. 20;16 KJB). I see nowhere in the OP that this is the case. The assumption, and imputation to such an evil motive is not factual, and accuses the OP and author unjustly again. This is not Christ-like. I believe you should apologize in humility.​

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[3] It assumes that when Jesus said "a certain rich man" that is indicates the "experiences of an actual real life person". This is simply your assumption and not demonstrated in any kind of evidence upon your part, and I saw no evidence provided from the scripture either. This means your reply argues in a circle, simply asserting your present position, and arguing by your reasoning to your starting place.​

Even if you could somehow demonstrate the OP in error, it would not automatically imply the OP was impugning evil motive, and could just as easily be mistaken.

Who is the “certain rich man”? It is unrepentant and stubborn “Judah” as a nation. Who are the “five brethren” of the “rich man” (Judah)? They are the other unrepenting tribes (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar and Zebulon, all of the same mother, “Leah”.) Jesus is using an Old Testament reference in a parable to the pharisees who were covetous. If you need the texts for those, please let me know, and I would be glad to share them with you. If you desire to know how I know it is a parable, I would be glad to share that with you also, from the surrounding context.

So:

[1] Jesus did not lie. I would never even imply that He ever had. Jesus kept the commandments, always (Jhn. 15:10 KJB).​

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[2] I do not believe Jesus lied - ever. I would never imply that He ever had. Jesus is the truth (Jhn. 14:6 KJB).​

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[3] Jesus was indeed speaking about "a certain (specific, definite) rich man". It just happens to be the nation of "Judah", the son of the same mother, as the "five brethren" (Luk. 16:28 KJB).​

 

[ReChoired]

QUESTION: IN LUKE 16:19-31, THERE IS A “CERTAIN RICH MAN” WHO DIED AND WAS IN IMMEDIATE TORMENTS IN FLAME (Luke 16:23-25,28). DOESN’T THIS TEACH IMMEDIATE REWARD UPON DEATH, AND ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL FIRE?

No. Jesus, in Luke 16:19-31, is giving a parable to the Pharisees, in response to their covetousness and adulterousness, in Luke 16:14-18, and it comes in a series of parables, beginning in Luke 15:1-32. See also Luke 14:1-35 for more context. The parable is filled with symbols. Some say that the passage cannot be a parable because it doesn’t use the word “parable”, but that is a man-made tradition, not found in scripture. For instance, see Luke 15:8-10. It’s a parable that doesn’t use the word parable, because it is already part of the series of parables. Also see Ezekiel 4:1-15; Judges 9:7-15, 14:14; 2 Samuel 12:1-7, 14:1-12; Book of Job (parables throughout); Isaiah 5:1-6; Jeremiah 1:11,13; Matthew 5:13-16, 9:15-17, 18:21-35, 20:1-16, 21:28-32, 25:1-13, 14-30; Mark 2:18-22, 3:27, 4:26-29, 7:14-16, 8:15,34-48; Luke 7:40-42, 8:16-18, 10:25-37, 14:16-24, 25-33, 34-35, 15:8-10, 11-32, 16:1-13; John 16:21, and Revelation itself, given nearly entirely in symbol (Revelation 1:1).

Some say Luke 16:19:31 cannot be a parable because it uses ‘proper’ names, like “Abraham”, “Moses and the prophets”, “Lazarus”. This is again a man-made (‘pharisaical’) tradition, that a parable cannot have ‘proper names’ and still remain a parable. There is no such rule in all of scripture, and in fact, there are other parables in scripture which use ‘proper names’, as ‘names’ carry symbolic meaning. See Numbers 23:7-10, “parable”, “Balak”, “Moab”, “Aram”, “Jacob”, “Israel” and “the LORD (JEHOVAH)”. See Ezekiel 23:1-4, “Egypt”, “Aholah the elder”, “Aholibah her sister”, “Samaria is Aholah”, “Jerusalem Aholibah”. See 2 Samuel 12:1-7, with the parable of the prophet Nathan to King David, “the one rich, and the other poor”, “the rich man”, “the poor man”, “a traveller”, “David, thou art the man”. See the parable of Jotham in Judges 9:7-15, “God”, “Lebanon”. See Jesus in Matthew 13:31, “parable”, “mustard seed”. See also, Mark 4:15 - gives “Satan”; Matthew 13:37 - gives “The Son of man”; Matthew 13:39 - gives “The devil” and “angels”; Matthew 15:13 - gives “heavenly Father”; Luke 4:23 - gives as a “proverb” “Physician” to Jesus Himself. See the great Parable and Prophecy of Revelation, “Antipas” (Revelation 2:13); “Balaam” (Revelation 2:14); “Jezebel” (Revelation 2:20); “David” (Revelation 3:7); “children of Israel ... Juda ... Reuben ... Gad ... Aser ... Nepthalim ... Manasses ... Simeon ... Levi ... Issachar ... Zabulon ... Joseph ... Benjamin” (Revelation 7:4-8); “Wormwood” (Revelation 8:11); “Abbadon ... Apollyon” (Revelation 9:11); “Euphrates” (Revelation 9:14); “Gentiles” (Revelation 11:2); “my two witnesses” (Revelation 11:3); “Sodom and Egypt” (Revelation 11:18); “Babylon” (Revelation 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21); “Moses” (Revelation 15:3); “Armageddon” (Revelation 16:16); “Gog and Magog” (Revelation 20:8), “Dragon” (Revelation 12:7,9,13,16,17, 20:2); “Michael” (Revelation 12:7); “the Lamb” (throughout Revelation, Revelation 5:6,8,12,13, 6:1,16, 7:9,10,14,17, 12:11, 13:8,11, 14:1,4,10, 15:3, 17:14, 19:7,9, 21:9,14,22,23,27, 22:1,3), &c.

[A.] Num 23:7 And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.​

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[B.] Eze 23:4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.​

Moreover, the 'names' (Lazarus, Abraham, Moses) as used in Luke 16:19-31 have meaning (see “as his name is, so is he”, 1 Samuel 25:25; also Proverbs 22:1; Ecclesiastes 7:1). “Lazarus” (G2976) is simply the koine Greek way of saying the Hebrew “Eleazar” (H499, El; (H410)) is my Helper ('azar; (H5826)) or 'Eliezer’ (H461)). Did Abraham have such a servant, that he loved, by that name? Yes (Genesis 15:2), and the name means, “God (El; (H410)) is my Helper ('azar; (H5828))”, or the 'one whom God helps', ie. the poor in Spirit. Does the name “Abraham” (H85; G11) have meaning? Yes, it means, “a father of many nations (multitude)” (Genesis 17:5). Does the name “Moses” have meaning? Yes. It means (H4872, drawn to or out (of the water; Exodus 2:10). Whenever Jesus spoke to the pharisees, it was always in a parable, as foretold:

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[A.] Psa_78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:​

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[B.] Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:​

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Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.​

What does the parable of Luke 16:19-31 mean then? That would be too long of a discussion here, but if one were to look up each symbol, “finger”, “water”, “flames”, “tongue”, &c. they would be able to understand the parable, along with the previous context of what Jesus said to them about covetousness and adultery. Who is the “certain rich man”? It is unrepentant and stubborn “Judah” as a nation. Who are the “five brethren” of the “rich man” (Judah)? They are the other unrepenting tribes (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar and Zebulon, all of the same mother, “Leah”.) So, do men which die, go straight to their reward upon death? No, Abraham was still dead and buried (Matthew 22:31-32) in the grave, awaiting to come to life in the resurrection, and was not yet in Heaven, and see what Jesus said in Luke 14, just a little before Luke 16:

[A.] Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.​

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[B.] Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.​

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[C.] Joh_8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.​

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[D.] Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.​

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Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:​

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Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.​

 

[ReChoired]

You noticed that huh? I did too. To some extent at least. What I concluded after pondering it and praying about it was this:

It is indeed a Parable, however, it illustrates very important Biblical Truths and biblical principles. What does it show us in that parable?

They have their five senses. They can feel thirst, they can see and smell and all that stuff.
...

The truth Jesus was explaining by parable, was not in the matter of physicality, or natural things, but speaking to spiritual things. The "certain rich man", being spiritually the nation of Judah, who was one of 6 children of Leah, and so having "five brethren", does not mean that the dead "have their five senses" in death. Jesus was speaking to the spiritually dead, not the naturally dead. Eyes they have and see not. Ears have they and hear not; &c. Yet not natural things, the spiritual things Jesus was describing by parables. Not because they could not know, but because they refused to know. They closed their eyes, and shut their ears, as several prophets, and Jesus referring, have said.

John 6:53 KJB - Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.​

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Matthew 8:22 KJB - But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.​

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Luke 9:60 KJB - Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.​

Please consider Luke does record those very important words of Jesus for a specific reason. If one were to read the 4 gospels, and John most plainly shows, that when Jesus referred to spiritual things, the disciples, and pharisees, and peoples in general misunderstood Jesus's words dealing with spiritual things, for natural things. This was the general disconnect, and so as it was then, so too also today.

 

[ReChoired]

If any would like a study upon the State of the dead, they may consider it here - 13 Bible Studies, Prophecy, History, Theology, Legacy by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

If any would like a study on Hell, Grave, 'eternal torment', they may consider it here - 13 Bible Studies, Prophecy, History, Theology, Legacy by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[MA2444]

The truth Jesus was explaining by parable, was not in the matter of physicality, or natural things, but speaking to spiritual things. The "certain rich man", being spiritually the nation of Judah, who was one of 6 children of Leah, and so having "five brethren", does not mean that the dead "have their five senses" in death. Jesus was speaking to the spiritually dead, not the naturally dead. Eyes they have and see not. Ears have they and hear not; &c. Yet not natural things, the spiritual things Jesus was describing by parables. Not because they could not know, but because they refused to know. They closed their eyes, and shut their ears, as several prophets, and Jesus referring, have said.

John 6:53 KJB - Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.​

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Matthew 8:22 KJB - But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.​

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Luke 9:60 KJB - Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.​

Please consider Luke does record those very important words of Jesus for a specific reason. If one were to read the 4 gospels, and John most plainly shows, that when Jesus referred to spiritual things, the disciples, and pharisees, and peoples in general misunderstood Jesus's words dealing with spiritual things, for natural things. This was the general disconnect, and so as it was then, so too also today.

I didn't see any of that in that parable and can't really follow your line of thinking as to how you got there. I read it and see very real spiritual truths. WHen we die we (used to before Jesus paid the price) we go to Abrahams bosom, aka Paradise. Whn non believers die they go to sheol/hell as a temporary holding place until the GWTJ. The rich man could see Lazarus and Abraham, so his worked there. He spoake of his thirst so that sense was there. He held a conversation with Abraham so his ears were working so this leads us to reasonably believe that they have their 5 senses after you die.

The believers who died in Christ used to go Abrahams bosom as a temporary holding place until Jesus himself came and set them free. The new rule since Jesus paid the price, is, absent from the body, then present with the Lord. So Believers who die in Christ no longer go to Abrahams bosom. Which was good for the unbelievers because they needed the room for the more occupants of hell moving in means they needed more bed space for new arrivals. Hell is constantly expanding under the earth because people have been dying in their sins for a couple thousand years now! And this expansion of hell is what is causing all of the increased earthquakes and volcanic activity on earth in our age because their construction projects do have effect on our tectonic plates and stuff. When a volcano erupts it is a sign that hell is bursting at the seams!

I see no spiritual metaphors in that passage. I see a parable which illustrates reality and truth, literally.

 

[Hobie]

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from attempts to make the passage literal:

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?
The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but “his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type “interim body” for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are pure fiction and warrant no consideration whatsoever.

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?
Lazarus was carried “into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim “Abraham's Bosom” is a literal, actual name for “heaven” or “paradise” need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom” - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

3. LYING EYES?
The Rich Man is able to see “Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom” aka “place of comfort” aka “the kingdom” - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to “depart”. Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed “holding chamber” next door to hell called “paradise” (now that we've seen “Abraham's Bosom” is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that “paradise” is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

5. THE DEAD DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING
(Psalms 6:5 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Psalms 88:12 KJV)

These dead guys are sure able to remember a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to remember anything.

6. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS
(Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV; Proverbs 10:28 KJV)

These dead guys do a great job of demonstrating loving concern and also condescending disdain for people who aren't supposed to be able to have emotions.

7. THE DEAD DON'T PERFORM WORK
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; John 9:4 KJV)

The dead Rich Man mustn't have gotten the memo that Lazarus had finished his shift and clocked out - permanently.

8. THE DEAD DON'T DEVISE ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man was well able to devise a plan to warn his brothers for someone unable to do so.

9. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE WISDOM
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; Proverbs 2:6 KJV)

Dead Abraham was well able give wise testimony about the convicting power of the Word of God for someone unable to do so.

10. THE DEAD DON'T PRAISE GOD
(Isaiah 38:18 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalms 88:11 KJV)

Dead Abraham sure spoke highly of God's Word for someone unable to do so.

11. THE DEAD ARE IN DARKNESS
(Psalms 88:12 KJV; Job 10:21-22 KJV)

These dead guys must all have been wearing night vision goggles to see through all that darkness.

12. THE DEAD ARE IN SILENCE
(Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalm 31:17 KJV)

These dead guys were loud enough to wake the rest of the dead what with all that shouting back and forth at each other across that great gulf.

13. THE DEAD ARE ASLEEP
(Psalms 13:3 KJV; Ephesians 5:14 KJV; John 11:11-14 KJV)

These dead guys are fully awake and aware of their surroundings, especially the thirsty guy whose completely engulfed in flames of torment.

14. THE DEAD ARE RESERVED FOR FUTURE TORMENT
(2 Peter 2:9 KJV; Revelation 20:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's “reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished”.

Very true, Joseph's tells about the story, so it went around .

 

[Mark51]

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from attempts to make the passage literal:

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?
The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but “his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type “interim body” for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are pure fiction and warrant no consideration whatsoever.

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?
Lazarus was carried “into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim “Abraham's Bosom” is a literal, actual name for “heaven” or “paradise” need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom” - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

3. LYING EYES?
The Rich Man is able to see “Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom” aka “place of comfort” aka “the kingdom” - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to “depart”. Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed “holding chamber” next door to hell called “paradise” (now that we've seen “Abraham's Bosom” is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that “paradise” is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

5. THE DEAD DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING
(Psalms 6:5 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Psalms 88:12 KJV)

These dead guys are sure able to remember a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to remember anything.

6. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS
(Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV; Proverbs 10:28 KJV)

These dead guys do a great job of demonstrating loving concern and also condescending disdain for people who aren't supposed to be able to have emotions.

7. THE DEAD DON'T PERFORM WORK
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; John 9:4 KJV)

The dead Rich Man mustn't have gotten the memo that Lazarus had finished his shift and clocked out - permanently.

8. THE DEAD DON'T DEVISE ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man was well able to devise a plan to warn his brothers for someone unable to do so.

9. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE WISDOM
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; Proverbs 2:6 KJV)

Dead Abraham was well able give wise testimony about the convicting power of the Word of God for someone unable to do so.

10. THE DEAD DON'T PRAISE GOD
(Isaiah 38:18 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalms 88:11 KJV)

Dead Abraham sure spoke highly of God's Word for someone unable to do so.

11. THE DEAD ARE IN DARKNESS
(Psalms 88:12 KJV; Job 10:21-22 KJV)

These dead guys must all have been wearing night vision goggles to see through all that darkness.

12. THE DEAD ARE IN SILENCE
(Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalm 31:17 KJV)

These dead guys were loud enough to wake the rest of the dead what with all that shouting back and forth at each other across that great gulf.

13. THE DEAD ARE ASLEEP
(Psalms 13:3 KJV; Ephesians 5:14 KJV; John 11:11-14 KJV)

These dead guys are fully awake and aware of their surroundings, especially the thirsty guy whose completely engulfed in flames of torment.

14. THE DEAD ARE RESERVED FOR FUTURE TORMENT
(2 Peter 2:9 KJV; Revelation 20:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's “reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished”.

I agree to most of your points. This is my summary of understanding.

Jesus Christ was speaking to his disciples in the present of the Pharisees and scribes prior to the account at Luke 16:19-31; and, often taught a lesson by telling a story through the means of parables or illustrations.

In this illustration, the rich man depicts the Jewish clergy who were well provided for with spiritual provisions; who considered themselves children of the kingdom, clothed in purple/fine linen, very self-righteous; and, were proud of being Abraham’s offspring. (Matthew 23:27, 28; Romans 3:1, 2; Revelation 19:8) The beggar, Lazarus, depicts the Jewish common people, who were despised by the clergy. Being neglected, they were hungering and thirsting for righteousness (spiritually ill); and, who appreciated their need of Christ Jesus.-John 7:49; Matthew 5:6; Mark 2:17.

The death of the rich man and of Lazarus pictured a change taking place in the relative positions of these two classes. This should be no surprise to us because the Bible shows that death can be used symbolically, representing people as dying or having died though still alive, meaning thereby that a great change in one’s life or course of action. Compare Romans 6:2, 11-13; 7:4-6; Colossians 3:3; 1 Timothy 5:6. A death, or change from former conditions, happened when Jesus fed the Lazarus class spiritually; and, they thus came into the favor of the greater Abraham: God. At the same time, the false religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ’s followers after Pentecost forcefully exposed their evil works. (Acts 7:51-57) So this illustration is not literal and does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.

Furthermore, it is not reasonable or Scriptural to believe that a man suffers torment simply because he is rich, wears good clothing and has plenty to eat. It is not Scriptural to believe that one is blessed with heavenly life just because he is a beggar. Jesus said nothing about the rich man’s living a degraded life worthy of “fiery” punishment; the man’s failing was that he did not spiritually feed the poor. Further, Jesus said nothing about Lazarus’ doing good things, things that clearly would merit his going to heaven.

Finally, “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13) The resurrection of the dead did not start at that time.

 

[David in NJ]

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from attempts to make the passage literal:

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?
The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but “his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type “interim body” for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are pure fiction and warrant no consideration whatsoever.

Your Point #1 is = MAJOR FAIL

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The TRUTH of God's Word prevails over your de-emphasis.

TRUTH #1 - JESUS only speaks TRUTH and HE gave a literal account and NOT a parable.

JESUS specifically identified, by name two individuals in His literal account.

The Scriptures are CLEAR that only the physical body dies and goes back to earth whereas the soul/spirit of a man continues after physical death = GOSPEL , Apostles and Revelation

Jesus answered and said to them, “You(Phoneman777) are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

 

[MA2444]

My understanding of the rich man and lazarus is that, it is told as a parable because the rich man is not named, however, it demonstrates a reality which is true.

For unbelievers at least now since Jesus freed His people from Abrahams bosom. They need the etra room for expansion to house all the new people being added daily which are awaiting judgment.

So this suggests that there are underground construction crews working to expand hell beneath the surface of the earth. Moving dirt around and stuff. Maybe that fact is a contributing factor to the world's increased earthquake activity on earth (and volcanic activity)?

 

[David in NJ]

My understanding of the rich man and lazarus is that, it is told as a parable because the rich man is not named, however, it demonstrates a reality which is true.

For unbelievers at least now since Jesus freed His people from Abrahams bosom. They need the etra room for expansion to house all the new people being added daily which are awaiting judgment.

So this suggests that there are underground construction crews working to expand hell beneath the surface of the earth. Moving dirt around and stuff. Maybe that fact is a contributing factor to the world's increased earthquake activity on earth (and volcanic activity)?

Question that leads to TRUTH = Why is the rich man not named by the LORD???

 

[MA2444]

Question that leads to TRUTH = Why is the rich man not named by the LORD???

I...don't know. For now I see as through a glass darkly. The rich man's name isn't even the focus of the parable, it is that spiritual principle or spiritual truth. That truth is that, after we die our record on eartth is closed and finalized. If we were born again, then our soul goes to be with Jesus, and if we happened to die in our sins in rebellion to God then they go a place of torment and pain.

That's so big that, it don't matter what their names were. The spiritual reality is so much bigger than that point that it's as if it is irrevelant.

 

[David in NJ]

I...don't know. For now I see as through a glass darkly. The rich man's name isn't even the focus of the parable, it is that spiritual principle or spiritual truth. That truth is that, after we die our record on eartth is closed and finalized. If we were born again, then our soul goes to be with Jesus, and if we happened to die in our sins in rebellion to God then they go a place of torment and pain.

That's so big that, it don't matter what their names were. The spiritual reality is so much bigger than that point that it's as if it is irrevelant.

Well, first off , JESUS did not give to us a parable with Abraham and Lazarus = they are REAL people and the account is literal.

The fact that JESUS clearly named these individuals is clue #1.

Clue #2 is that there is no hint or suggestion in this passage that it was a parable.

Clue #3 is that it is distinguished from the parables which the LORD did give to us in the Gospel.

Clue #4 is that the rich man's name is NOT mentioned whereas Abraham and Lazarus names were specifically praised by JESUS.

Clue #5 are the literal specifics in the account that JESUS spoke of in other places in His Gospel.

Clue #6 is in chapter 16 itself = the chapter begins with a parable and then JESUS shifts from parable to REALITY in verse 14 and continues in that REALITY.

Clue #7 is Revelation

SHALOM

Your Mission, should you accept it: Find Clue #5 in the Gospel