The twelve tribes were Israelites, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, as you've been shown innumerable times already.
Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
Literally…the blood line of every Human relates back to Adam and Eve. And all humans have a curse of a death sentence on their Body’s Life (which is it’s blood).
Many are called…(by God) Few are chosen…(by God)
Division after the flood…of Noah’s 3 sons…
Japheth, Ham, Shem (Gen 10, full chapter)
appears…
First mention of Gentiles…Japheth’s clan
Ham’s clan mentioned next…
Lastly…Shem he the father of all his clan…
Including mention of his son Eber…(from which I think the term Hebrew evolves)
So…was everyone a Gentile…until they are “called” and “accept” and “thus chosen”?
We find “name” changes several times in Scripture, to signify…(IMO)…a call, acceptance, chosen “status” revealed effected…regardless of “clan”, “location” etc.
We also find “name” changes of places, AND “groups”…..families…..kinsman.
It was actually a NON-believer who coined the term … Christian …. To identify people who were following and promoting Jesus being the one ( the Messiah ) SENT from God.
Regarding Rebekah…she was picked…out from Abraham’s Kinsmen as Abraham had directed his servant….(IMO)…I believe Abraham believed…she was “chosen” by God and upon meeting her…all seemed quite content regarding approval.
Ending conversation….doesn’t really matter…everyone answering Gods calling…become changed and MADE anew….and Jew and Gentile obsolete.
Glory to God,
Taken
I certainly concur with your last statement.
I've added an item about Bethuel to my previous post, if you're interested.
"Gentility" has never prevented God from accomplishing His purposes.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Didn’t see what you “added” in your previous post…
Agree.
In Brief;
Addressing…”children”….which comes “under” the relationship to “father”.
Addressing…”Nations”… which come “under” the relationship of the “people/citizens” thereof.
Addressing…”Division” …anciently, appears to be: titled: “Gods People”…and “Gentiles”.
“Gods People”… anciently…did two things;
* Heard Gods Offering (particulars of HOW they could BE Gods people)
* People together Agreed to Gods Offering and terms.
(Gen 23:11) Gods People (ie. ‘my People’)
(Ex 19:8) People agreeing.
Speculating…
Established DivIsion…
Identified as “Gentiles”… (Gen 10:8)
Identified as “Gods People”. (Gen 23:11)
(Throughout Scripture bit by bit knowledge revealed….
HOW, WHEN, WHY…according to God Order and Way….human men naturally from human SEEDS, procreate, multiply, having a natural biological “human father”…
* option to Learn about their creator and maker…TO freely choose their creator and maker TO BE THEIR “Heavenly Father”…)
^… Establishing…a (Father / Child) relationship BETWEEN TWO (God and A human), in Agreement.
The Conundrum….
God IS INVISIBLE..neither seen, heard, smelled, tasted, felt…(ALL the express means for a HUMAN to communicate).
The Revealing…
Abram…offspring…Ishmael…a Gentile.
Abram (Gods choice, Abram’s freewill agreement to agree)…
God’s declaration….Abram to BECOME…”the father OF many Nations (people)”….
Abram’s…appointment….NAME CHANGE…
Abraham.
Abraham’s wife…NAME CHANGE…Sarah
Abraham & Sarah’s offspring…NAME selected by God…ISAAC. (Gen 17:19)
Long story short….
** “Gods People”….have had numerous “names/titles/descriptions” attached to them…Hebrews, Israel, Tribes, Israelites, Judah, Jews, etc.)
** “Not Gods People”….have had numerous “names/titles/descriptions” attached to them…Gentiles, heathens, heretics, idol worshipers, ungodly, anti-god, etc.)
The Conundrum…
Mankind…LIFE…”tainted” BLOOD…
Mankind…spirit…NATURAL “truth” (that may be not Godly Truth)
Mankind…”given the gift of a GOOD soul” in a “corrupted” natural body….GOOD soul IN corrupted body, becomes corrupted.
Sounds doomed…And is doomed and SENTENCED to DEATH…MUST DIE, God requires the DEATH of ALL Human bodily LIFE. (Gen 9:5)
Conundrum…
Are ALL humans…naturally born…(from a human mans corrupt seed, reproducing its SAME KIND OF THING…ie. a CORRUPT offspring?…..as a GENTILE is Described?
Can a HUMAN…naturally born Against God…become…a FAVORED of God…by becoming a JEW? (Some think, say so, and by mans’ made up “procedure” and “self-appointed” authority…DO…convent Gentiles to being “declared” a Jew, under the auspice…of God SHALL “save” His PEOPLE…”the Jews”.
It’s a conundrum…Because:
Of the “FATHER” relationship…
* An “earthly father”…that no natural born human “chooses”…..
* And a “Heavenly Father”….that every natural born human “must choose”….(to establish the relationship).
* RESOLUTION…(offering from God)…
* Open ears, Open eyes, Hear, Look, See, Learn…FROM the EXAMPLE God SENT…
AND CHOOSE you…to Mimic that EXAMPLE (and Gain the Consequence thereof )or NOT, (and Gain the Consequence thereof).
Heb 2:
[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Took on him (speaking of Jesus…the SENT Example) the SEED of Abraham…??
Got Abraham’s BLOOD, DNA, etc,? No.
What? WHAT SEED did Abraham HAVE…that Jesus took upon Himself…and Human’s can take upon themselves?
Gal 3:
[16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The BIG PICTURE…
An Earthly father…..Abraham.
A Heavenly Father…Lord God Almighty
Requirement…an individuals spiritual Truth, Word…of agreement to accept by “taking” Gods Offering….According to Gods terms…(Order / Way)…
Truth, spiritual Confession, willingly giving their bodily life unto Death for God. (Crucified with Jesus…martyred).
oops..long story longer..
So..do humans Begin their natural born life…believing? No. Would they all technically be in the category of gentile, heathen, anti-god?
Do (broadly) all Jews per their natural blood -line get a pass for with God, because of their blood-line…(I say no.).
And…can any…human (Gentile, Israelite)…Become according to Gods Offering, Order, Way…a CHILD of Abraham..(he their earthly father). and Son of God (he their Heavenly Father)?
IF so…would that apply to or exclude Rebekah? (Who was chosen and agreed to submit unto Isaac, whom God chose)….
I don’t question her belief IN God, as she did pray to God…(Gen 25:21)
Did Rebekah’s belief in God…make her Perfect? No
But I would say, it made her a child of Abraham…and a Child of God.
God bless you.
Glory to God,
Taken
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
It matters to this degree. If God made a promise to Jacob and his descendants, and he doesn't keep his promise, then what are we do say about his promises to us?
Taken
Well-Known Member
The discussion was spurred regarding Rebekah being a Gentile…or not…
I should have continued my point….it really doesn’t matter what people think who is, who is not a Gentile…
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I agree. If God makes a promise to Jacob and his descendants, He is aware of whom the promise was made, and so are they.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
On the contrary, God's promise to Paul's kinsmen of the flesh is the central point of discussion in those three chapters.
First, he asserts
Romans 9:3-4 ". . . my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons . . .
The phrase "adoption as sons" refers to the concept of salvation, understood as an inheritance. This metaphor depicts a patron who "adopts" a young man as his "son" under Roman law. By doing so, the patron provides financial support and ensures that the young man will inherit his wealth. God offers us eternal life as our inheritance, along with a guarantee of the Holy Spirit. The apostle Paul explains this in his letter to the Ephesians.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is given to us as a promise of our inheritance, looking forward to our redemption. In Ephesians 1:5, Paul refers to this as "the adoption as sons." He used this term to describe those whom God has chosen to seal with His Holy Spirit and grant eternal life.
In Romans 9:4, Paul states that "the adoption as sons," which signifies those whom God has chosen to seal with His Holy Spirit, belongs to his kinsmen according to the flesh. This raises an important question: If God promised this adoption to them and it rightfully belongs to them, why hasn't He granted it to them?
The significance of this question shouldn't be underestimated. To see its profundity, we turn to Deuteronomy 30, where God promised Israel that he would "circumcise their hearts." What is associated with a circumcised heart if not: trust in God; fear of God; belief in God; seeking the kingdom of God; belief in Christ; love of the Christian brethren; hope in salvation, glorification, and entrance into aionic life?
Some people mistakenly believe that eternal life is the reward for believing in God. However, contrary to popular opinion, belief in God follows from a transformation of the heart. Since God is the one who transforms the hearts of those He has chosen, it follows that His promise to do so is unconditional. The transformation of the heart occurs first, and then belief follows from that.
And so, if God promised to make Paul's kinsmen into believers, then why hasn't he done that yet?
You brought up the dispensational belief that God will save all Israelites during a moment in the future. I am not a dispensationalist and I don't believe what they do. Nevertheless, God intends to "remove ungodliness from Jacob" which means God will remove ungodly Israelites from Israel during that time, leaving only sanctified survivors among them.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Gentiles were not your chosen race, but God included faithful obedient Gentiles with faithful obedient Jews to comprise His Chosen People.
Because God was not and is not a racist.
Relevant.
It made her a spiritual child of God and of Abraham.
However, not a physical child of Abraham.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Will probably have to disagree on that…Rebekah was Abraham’s kisman…Natural order, of Abrahams natural ascending blood-line.
Abraham did not receive…new blood…rather a new seed.
By Through, Of the Spirit of God…are all the saved MADE children of Abraham…
Which MAKES such a person entitled to occupy Abraham’s inheritance…the Promised Land.
Yes, Paul establishes what true Israel is. He outlines the distinction between the two types of Israelite in ethnic Israel. He then shows how believing Gentiles have been grafted into true believing Israel today! That is clear to the unindoctrinated. You have showed us nothing from Malachi. To the best of my knowledge, the text has not been part of our conversation.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
My overall point still stands unaddressed: in one breath you are arguing for a future wholesale national salvation of all ethnic Israel, in the next, you are arguing: "God's promise to Israel will not include every descendant of Israel." You cannot have it both ways.
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