Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[CadyandZoe]

Did you know that Jacob was both Jew and Gentile?

Have you ever heard of DNA?

Who created DNA?

So you don't think DNA has anything to do with Jews and Gentiles?

What planet are you on?

A discussion of DNA gets us nowhere in our knowledge of God's will for mankind, especially his chosen people. You are mistaken to believe that God has not chosen Jacob and his descendants to be his people. You wrongly believe that such a concept would cause God to be a racist, which isn't true.

A racist is someone who believes that certain races are inherently superior or inferior to others. God is not a racist. But he did choose Jacob and his family line to be his people. What does he say?

Deuteronomy 7:6-7 For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.​

out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth . . .
In this passage, God communicates that He has chosen one family to be set apart in a significant way, highlighting their uniqueness. But what exactly makes them unique? Is it because they possess some attribute that others lack? Not at all. God explains that His choice was not based on their numbers, meaning there were no distinguishing criteria that set them apart from other people.

kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers . . .
God chose Jacob and his descendants from all other peoples of the earth to be a special and unique people, not because they were inherently special, but because of an oath He made to their ancestors.

In Paul's concluding remarks toward the end of Romans 11, he highlights this aspect of God's choice.

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”​

The apostle highlights the family of Jacob for special attention because he is discussing a promise that God made to Jacob and his descendants. Just as it was not racist for God to choose Jacob and his descendants as His people—because He did so based on a promise made to their forefathers, not because He viewed them as better than others—it is also not racist for God to send a deliverer to rid His descendants of ungodliness.

Romans 11:28-29 From the standpoint of the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

The structure of this argument is built on a comparison between what God did for our sake and what God did for the sake of the fathers.

your sake:
they are (currently) enemies of the gospel

sake of the fathers:
they are beloved.

Reason:
the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks for your confirmations.

I asked you some clarification questions. The point is this. A group of Messianic Jews might agree with you while others might agree with me. However, agreement is not an arbiter of truth. We turn to an examination and discussion of the scriptures for the truth concerning God's will, and I prefer to remain on that course.

 

[covenantee]

You are mistaken to believe that God has not chosen Jacob and his descendants to be his people.

You failed to answer the question.

Do you know that Jacob was both Jew and Gentile?

 

[covenantee]

A group of Messianic Jews might agree with you while others might agree with me.

I challenge you to find any Messianic Jews who agree with you that they have not experienced Christ's New Covenant.

Any.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Romans 9-11 refutes your whole thesis, so you are forced to go back to the OT to try and rescue your argument by twisting what the prophets are saying.

That isn't true. Paul has granted that Salvation belongs to his kinsmen of the flesh. In light of that, it behooves us to return to the OT to confirm Paul's assertion. The passage I quoted confirms that indeed, God promised eternal life to his people, whom he has identified as Jacob and his descendants.

Unfortunately, you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth with your argument. In one breath you are arguing for a future wholesale national salvation of all ethnic Israel, in the next, you are arguing: "God's promise to Israel will not include every descendant of Israel." You cannot have it both ways.

On the contrary, there is one way that I can have it both ways, and I have mentioned Malachi 4 several times in this discussion. You should do the reading. :)

Malachi 4 briefly describes an event that will lead to either healing or death, based on a person's relationship with God. This single event is referred to as "the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord."

Joel 2 describes a time known as "The Day of the Lord," when God will send an army of fire. Those who hear the shofar and come to Jerusalem to pray for deliverance will be saved. In contrast, those who remain behind will be consumed in the fire. Similar to Malachi, Joel presents a pivotal event that will determine either deliverance or death based on the actions of individual Israelites. Each person must decide whether to seek God's deliverance by going to Jerusalem or to stay behind at home. Those who gather in Jerusalem will be saved.

Joel 2:32 And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the Lord has said, Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.​

Isaiah describes this time period as "removing ungodliness from Jacob." In this context, God will require His people to make a choice: those who fear God will find healing and deliverance because they heeded the call to come to Jerusalem. In contrast, the rest of Israel, who are arrogantly evil, will refuse to respond to the call to Jerusalem, and as a result, they will perish.

Those who hear the call and come to Jerusalem because they feared the Lord, God will pour out his spirit on them and they will find eternal life. (Joel 2:28)

 

[CadyandZoe]

You failed to answer the question.

Do you know that Jacob was both Jew and Gentile?

I didn't fail to answer the question. I ignored it. If you want me to answer it, then make it relevant.

 

[covenantee]

I didn't fail to answer the question. I ignored it. If you want me to answer it, then make it relevant.

Whether or not you choose to answer is irrelevant.

Jacob was both Jew and Gentile.

 

[WPM]

That isn't true. Paul has granted that Salvation belongs to his kinsmen of the flesh. In light of that, it behooves us to return to the OT to confirm Paul's assertion. The passage I quoted confirms that indeed, God promised eternal life to his people, whom he has identified as Jacob and his descendants.

On the contrary, there is one way that I can have it both ways, and I have mentioned Malachi 4 several times in this discussion. You should do the reading. :)

Malachi 4 briefly describes an event that will lead to either healing or death, based on a person's relationship with God. This single event is referred to as "the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord."

Joel 2 describes a time known as "The Day of the Lord," when God will send an army of fire. Those who hear the shofar and come to Jerusalem to pray for deliverance will be saved. In contrast, those who remain behind will be consumed in the fire. Similar to Malachi, Joel presents a pivotal event that will determine either deliverance or death based on the actions of individual Israelites. Each person must decide whether to seek God's deliverance by going to Jerusalem or to stay behind at home. Those who gather in Jerusalem will be saved.

Joel 2:32 And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the Lord has said, Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.​

Isaiah describes this time period as "removing ungodliness from Jacob." In this context, God will require His people to make a choice: those who fear God will find healing and deliverance because they heeded the call to come to Jerusalem. In contrast, the rest of Israel, who are arrogantly evil, will refuse to respond to the call to Jerusalem, and as a result, they will perish.

Those who hear the call and come to Jerusalem because they feared the Lord, God will pour out his spirit on them and they will find eternal life. (Joel 2:28)

This is a totally disjoined, incoherent and contradictory argument. It is taking us a way from Romans 9-11, which you have to do, because those chapters strongly forbid your whole thesis. This is what Premils do when they are in retreat: they resort to twisting OT Scripture. Notwithstanding, what you attribute to these texts in no way supports your claims.

Your pattern is to make wild unsubstantiated claims, and much private opinion, but you repeatedly fail to support it with clear Scripture.

Where have you proved anything from Malachi 4? Nowhere! That is another pattern: you make these wild unfounded claims, without ever presenting anything that supports that.

My overall point still stands unaddressed: in one breath you are arguing for a future wholesale national salvation of all ethnic Israel, in the next, you are arguing: "God's promise to Israel will not include every descendant of Israel." You cannot have it both ways.

 

[Taken]

Is that other thread getting too long for you, lol?

Is this topic all you ever talk about? That's...weird.

What is beyond weird is someone pretending they are experts in something they neither believe or understand!

Laughable!

 

[Taken]

Whether or not you choose to answer is irrelevant.

Jacob was both Jew and Gentile.

How so?

 

[covenantee]

How so?

Rebekah was a Gentile.

 

[Taken]

Rebekah was a Gentile.

How did you determine Rebekah was a Gentile?

 

[covenantee]

How did you determine Rebekah was a Gentile?

She was not a descendant of Abraham.

 

[Taken]

She was not a descendant of Abraham.

Rebekah was blood line kin to Abram / Abraham’s via Abram’s brother; (Nahor) and
( She was Abram’s niece, and Isaacs’ cousin).

How does Rebekah’s blood kin-ship to Abraham make Rebekah a Gentile?

 

[covenantee]

Rebekah was blood line kin to Abram / Abraham’s via Abram’s brother; (Nahor) and
( She was Abram’s niece, and Isaacs’ cousin).

How does Rebekah’s blood kin-ship to Abraham make Rebekah a Gentile?

Descent refers to parent-child relationships. Descent does not involve brothers, nieces, or cousins.

Abraham was not a parent/grandparent/greatgrandparent/etc. of Rebekah.

Rebekah was not a child/grandchild/greatgrandchild/etc. of Abraham.

Therefore, Rebekah was not a descendant of Abraham.

Therefore, Rebekah was a Gentile (unless you're claiming that she was a Jew even without having descended from Abraham, in which case I want to see your definition of "Jew").

Therefore, Jacob was both Jew (via descent from Abraham through his father Isaac), and Gentile (via his Gentile mother Rebekah).

 

[Taken]

Descent refers to parent-child relationships. Descent does not involve brothers, nieces, or cousins.

Disagree.
Descendant is of the blood-line of an ancestor.

Abraham was not a parent/grandparent/greatgrandparent/etc. of Rebekah.

Abraham’s blood-line ancestor was Terah…Abrahams father.
Nabor’s blood-line ancestor was Terah…
Nabor’s father.
Haran’s blood-line ancestor was Terah…
Haran’s father.
Abraham, Nabor, Haran…were brothers.
There father was Terah.

Abraham, Nabor, Haran…each had children…
All of their children were blood-line descendants of Terah.

Abraham’s offspring’s to —> Isaac;
Was a blood-line descendant of Terah.

Nabor’s offspring’s to —> Rebekah;
Was a blood-line descendant of Terah.

Haran’s offspring to —> Lot;
Was blood-line descendant of Terah.

They ALL (blood-line related)….fathers, grand- fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, cousins, etc….called “kinsmen”.

Rebekah was not a child/grandchild/greatgrandchild/etc. of Abraham.

Correct…regarding “direct” Descending…

Therefore, Rebekah was not a descendant of Abraham.

Disagree…regarding Ascending…which established the blood-line relationship.

Therefore, Rebekah was a Gentile (unless you're claiming that she was a Jew even without having descended from Abraham, in which case I want to see your definition of "Jew").

Disagree…
I didn’t claim Rebekah was a Jew.
I didn’t claim Jacob was a Jew.
I didn’t claim Abraham was a Jew.

NONE….Rebekah, Jacob, or Abram/Abraham were called “Jews”.

* Ancient history….People WITH God, were called by God…”MY people”…
* Ancient history….People NOT WITH God, were called by God…”Gentiles”…
* Ancient history…People (regardless who was their “god”) were called: by the NAME of the LAND where they were born or resided.
* Ancient history...
Terah..Abram, Nabor, Haran…all lived in Ur.
Haran died.
Terah Abram, wife Sari, Nabor, Haran’s son Lot…..left Ur.
Terah, settled…eventually died.
Nabor, settled.
Abram, Sari, Lot..continued traveling further…and settled … Heber.

History…
Abram..has son with Sari’s handmaiden.
(Handmaiden Haggar)…(Son…Ismahel)
Abram’s encounter with God…
Abram’s name change, wife’s name change…
Abraham & Sarah.
Abraham then called a HEBREW.
Abraham & Sarah promised a son.
Son…Isaac
* Abraham…sought a WIFE for his son Isaac.
* Abraham…sent his servant to Abraham’s “KINSMAN” (land) … where Abraham’s brother (Nahor) settled…. To bring back to Isaac a woman to wed.
*The servant complied…and returned to Abraham…with Abraham’s niece…Rebekah…

Abraham, Isaac, Rebekah….all shared a blood-line relationship…as all being direct descendants from Terah.

None…Terah, Abraham, Isaac, Rebekah…were called JEWS.

Jews…were a people of the offspring of JUDAH…one of Jacobs sons…..
WHOM Jacob a son of Isaac and Rebekah…
God NAME such son Jacob….ISRAEL.
All of Jacob/Israel’s sons were CALLED…
Israelites…
All of Jacob/Israel’s sons were alloted LAND, and each parcel of LAND was called by the NAMES of Jacob/Israel’s sons names.

12 sons…
12 sons names
12 parcels of land
Each parcel named after the 12 sons
People of each parcel called by the lands’ name.
Collective…all the people of the 12 parcels, called Israelites…and Gods people.

The parcel called….JUDAH….the people were called….Israelites and Judian’s……..or Jews…
The parcel called…BENJAMIN…the people were called…Israelites and Benjamites….
And so forth….

Historically….Lands were conquered….People scattered…Lands renamed…Governance over lands changed…borders changed…(repetitively….for centuries)

While the LAND…names changed…the descendants … the people thereof remained being called ISRAELITES…

History….The “religion” of the Israelites…regardless of what land where they lived…was called JEWISH….and the 12 Tribes….regardless of where they lived…all collectively call themselves JEWS…

Modern history….A strip of land SEEDED TO the Israelites…..and such land named ISRAEL…MAKES….”ANYONE” a “CITIZEN” of ISRAEL….(by mans law)…an “ISRAELITE”…

Modern history…the LAND called ISRAEL…is full of CITIZENS….from numerous blood-line ancestors….Hebrews, 12 Tribes of Israel and Gentiles…

History…and Modern History….The DEFINING
Difference between CITIZEN ISRAELITES…and blood-line descendants, kinsman, citizens of ANY world nation….)
IS: the acceptance of the “religious term”….JEWISH.

Therefore, Jacob was both Jew (via descent from Abraham through his father Isaac), and Gentile (via his Gentile mother Rebekah).

NONE…Abraham, Issac, Rebekah….were JEWS.
The term…JEW…came later….JUDAH.

Nothing in Scripture identifies Rebekah (according to your “therefore”)… as her being a Gentile.

According to Abraham…Rebekah was Abrahams kinsman.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CadyandZoe]

Whether or not you choose to answer is irrelevant.

Jacob was both Jew and Gentile.

Jacob was not a Jew or a Gentile. The term "Jew" is derived from the Patriarch Judah, a son of Jacob. The term "Jew" is also used to indicate anyone or everyone from one or all of the twelve tribes.

Jesus told Peter and his apostles that after Jesus' return they would rule over the Twelve tribes. Jesus was not confused about the twelve tribes as you seem to be.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is a totally disjoined, incoherent and contradictory argument. It is taking us a way from Romans 9-11, which you have to do, because those chapters strongly forbid your whole thesis.

I have not given expression to a thesis as you suppose. My posts have explicated Romans 9-11.

Notwithstanding, what you attribute to these texts in no way supports your claims.

Be specific.

Where have you proved anything from Malachi 4?

Did you read it?

 

[covenantee]

Descendant is of the blood-line of an ancestor.

Not.

Definition and description of descendant:

Genesis 12:7 Hebrew

2233 [e]
lə·zar·‘ă·ḵā,
לְזַ֨רְעֲךָ֔
to your descendants
Prep‑l | N‑msc | 2ms

Seed, offspring, and posterity all refer to children.

There are multiple references to child(ren) in 2233.

There are no references to any relatives or relations.

Rebekah was not a child (or grandchild/greatgrandchild/etc.) of Abraham, thus not a descendant of Abraham.

She was a Gentile.

Furthermore, "Jewishness" did not exist prior to Abraham; thus all of Rebekah's ancestors, from Terah back, were Gentiles.

In addition, Rebekah's father Bethuel certainly married a Gentile, as Abraham and Sarah produced no female offspring, and thus Rebekah herself was both Jew and Gentile, even if we accept your "bloodline" argument.

I've used the terms "Jew" and "Gentile" for brevity compared to "descendants of Abraham" and "non-descendants of Abraham".

The former ultimately came to be identified as Jews, the latter as Gentiles.

God bless you as well.

 

[Gottservant]

Can God not save souls before during and after the tribulation?