Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[Ritajanice]

@CadyandZoe ok Brother, thank you.i am going to take a break,as my mind is starting to get confused.

Lovely to see you,I hope that you and yours are well..God Bless as you journey with God.

God willing, will be back later.

 

[Scott Downey]

Your argument there fails because you are confusing "to rise with" sunegeivrw and "a standing up" anastasis

Consider the context, when Paul talks about the fact that "in Christ" we are raised with him, he is talking about the fact that Jesus went up into heaven -- that is, he speaks of Christ's ascension, not his resurrection.

Yes, seated with Him in heavenly places reference in Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Raised us up to be seated with Christ in heavenly places is the proper understanding.

 

[Scott Downey]

Ephesians 4, also mentions that He led the captivity captive, Christ raises, lifts us up, ascends us into heaven to be where HE IS.
That where HE IS, we may be also. It is one of His great and precious promises to us.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

 

[Ritajanice]

​

◄ Ephesians 2 ►

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Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Alive with Christ (Colossians 2:6–23) 1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. 4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.a One in Christ (Philippians 2:1–4) 11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace 16and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Christ Our Cornerstone (Isaiah 28:14–22; 1 Corinthians 3:10–15; 1 Peter 2:1–8) 19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord.22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

@CadyandZoe ok Brother, thank you.i am going to take a break,as my mind is starting to get confused.

Lovely to see you,I hope that you and yours are well..God Bless as you journey with God.

God willing, will be back later.

May the Lord richly bless you and your family.

 

[WPM]

The NEW SPIRIT is first taught of in Ezekiel 36
And it is how the New Covenant of a glorious salvation works.
And God saves us for His own Name's sake.

24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will [e]loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.

32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

The new Spirit we receive is the Holy Spirit who comes to reside within the new creature in Christ. He quickens our spirit and makes it alive unto God. This is 101 salvation.

 

[Scott Downey]

The new Spirit we receive is the Holy Spirit who comes to reside within the new creature in Christ. He quickens our spirit and makes it alive unto God. This is 101 salvation.

Not true,
The new spirit God gives to us. In other words, God gives us a new heart.
As we are a new creation in Christ
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

The old is gone, the new is here
Not resurrected, no, the spirit of a man is made new.

To what does Christ compare this?

Matthew 9:17
Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined.
But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

The new wine is the new way to God in the New Covenant, God indwells His people
The new wineskin is the new creation person, with a new spirit, (a new heart), all of that is new. They are a new container...to hold the Spirit of God.

The Promise of the Holy Spirit​

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those [a]believing in Him would receive; for the [b]Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Since God is a Spirit and we must worship Him in spirit and in truth, the heart here is the spirit. Like the central core of a person.
That core being is all new, nothing of the old remains for those in Christ.

Fact is the old heart resurrected, is impossible as it could not have the Spirit of God indwelling there, it would explode-pop, the person dies.
The old spirit is ruined anyway and cannot do anything good.

 

[dad]

For good reason.

Matt 8
11 I say to you that many [Gentiles] will come from east and west, and will sit down [to feast at the table, and enjoy God’s promises] with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven [because they accepted Me as Savior], 12 while the sons and heirs of the kingdom [the descendants of Abraham who will not recognize Me as Messiah] will be thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place [which is farthest removed from the kingdom] there will be weeping [in sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [in distress and anger].”

That applies to the future. The Rapture is more immediate. In other words the believers in Jesus dead and alive (commonly called the church) will go up in the air together. Then, if those of us who think we do not have an appointment with the wrath of God on earth are right, untold millions of people will become believers here. Later, when Jesus returns to the planet to rule, of course we all will be together, the believing Jews, etc. Yoou cannot use that to say that there are no dead and alive believers in Christ at the time of the Rapture.

 

[dad]

I refer you back to my last post which refutes your comments here. You're clearly fighting with Scripture.

You clearly do not know what you are talking about and do not understand the verses you spam here.

 

[Scott Downey]

People have a body, a spirit and a soul. God can divide all 3.
The soulish part of man is more like the mind.
The spirit of a man is what is spiritual and alive to God.
The body is obviously, the physical you.

1 Corinthians 6

16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.


We are joined together to the Lord, one spirit with Him. But we are not one body or one mind with God are we.
What God saves is the spirit of a man.

1 Corinthians 5
3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord [c]Jesus.

Such a person may well lose everything except salvation, see the DAY of Christ to come will test everyone's works by FIRE.
All their works may burn up. Since their spirit is joined to the Lord as one spirit with Him, that will be saved.
Getting a new spirit from God is an eternal work of God and He is living in that place, so then that spirit is saved, it is why our salvation is an eternal salvation.

1 Corinthians 3

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

17 If anyone [b]defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

The body is resurrected, and in that process glorified., changed, we get a new body, we do not keep the same body we have now.

The mind, well, you need to submit your mind to the will of God for you, which is your sanctification. Study scriptures, do the things that God says, do not conform your mind to the ways of this world, otherwise it may be stunned, wiped out on that day, you may lose a lot from what could have been rewards wise.

In essence the only thing that we certainly retain as we are now, if born of God, is our new spirit created in righteousness and holiness. The body and the mind are subject to rewards or the lack of them.

Not saying anyone will be unhappy in heaven. Heaven has levels of rewards and multiple levels. Christ compares it to being rulers over cities and siting on His right hand. Their remains a hierarchy in Heaven with God, an order.

Your mind has an obligation to God to be sanctified as is your new spirit created in righteousness and holiness.
v23 is the mind, which is under your control
v24 is the new man (new spirit)
Conform your mind to the new man that God created inside you.
And it will go well with you at the judgement Day


20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.


More context
Ephesians 4

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as [f]the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Do Not Grieve the Spirit​

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give [g]place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary [h]edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, [i]clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

 

[WPM]

People have a body, a spirit and a soul. God can divide all 3.
The soulish part of man is more like the mind.
The spirit of a man is what is spiritual and alive to God.
The body is obviously, the physical you.

1 Corinthians 6

16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.


We are joined together to the Lord, one spirit with Him. But we are not one body or one mind with God are we.
What God saves is the spirit of a man.

1 Corinthians 5
3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord [c]Jesus.

Such a person may well lose everything except salvation, see the DAY of Christ to come will test everyone's works by FIRE.
All their works may burn up. Since their spirit is joined to the Lord as one spirit with Him, that will be saved.
Getting a new spirit from God is an eternal work of God and He is living in that place, so then that spirit is saved, it is why our salvation is an eternal salvation.

1 Corinthians 3

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

17 If anyone [b]defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

The body is resurrected, and in that process glorified., changed, we get a new body, we do not keep the same body we have now.

The mind, well, you need to submit your mind to the will of God for you, which is your sanctification. Study scriptures, do the things that God says, do not conform your mind to the ways of this world, otherwise it may be stunned, wiped out on that day, you may lose a lot from what could have been rewards wise.

In essence the only thing that we certainly retain as we are now, if born of God, is our new spirit created in righteousness and holiness. The body and the mind are subject to rewards or the lack of them.

Not saying anyone will be unhappy in heaven. Heaven has levels of rewards and multiple levels. Christ compares it to being rulers over cities and siting on His right hand. Their remains a hierarchy in Heaven with God, an order.

Your mind has an obligation to God to be sanctified as is your new spirit created in righteousness and holiness.
v23 is the mind, which is under your control
v24 is the new man (new spirit)
Conform your mind to the new man that God created inside you.
And it will go well with you at the judgement Day


20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.


More context
Ephesians 4

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as [f]the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Do Not Grieve the Spirit​

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give [g]place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary [h]edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, [i]clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

No one denies the new birth. Hello! But the means He accomplishes the new birth is by spiritual resurrection. Read the avoided posts above.

 

[dad]

Bad translation? According to who?

As far as applying that to the future. The assemblies of various ages are not all those who are in Christ. If the word church to you means believers in Jesus, then obviously the Jews in the desert were not the church. If church just means (as it is meant to here) believers in God, then fine. If you then chose to misuse the word by applying it to the tribulation period, when believers in Christ, dead and alive have been taken up already, well, then it is just a word game. Sure, we can call the old testament and tribulation and millennium believers all 'the church' if you like! In that case, we simply call the dead and alive in Christ just before the tribulation period something else! Do you think, for example that at the time of the Rapture that more than the dead in Christ will rise? Do you think for example that Noah and Adam will be in the Rapture??

The saved saints under the Mosaic covenant were simply the assembly of God of that day.

Bingo. Pre Christ.

Also, the kingdom which was repeatedly promised to the remnant of Israel developed into the New Testament gathering.

? What 'new testament gathering of Jews? Never heard of that one.

Elect Israel and the elect Church were/are the same entity.

Yet Israel is here in the tribulation immersed in the wrath of God and the believers in Jesus, dead and alive are not. There will be multitudes of new believers that come to faith during that time. So if we are in heaven in the tribulation, and many of the tribulation saints are not even saved yet, and the ones that are on on planet earth, how is it you think we are the same entity at this time exactly? In the future, after Jesus returns, well, believers both in Christ, and from other times will be together! You seem to be getting your tenses confused.

The word ekklesia conveys the idea of a common assembly in both eras. The New Testament ekklesia is simply an extension of the Old Testament ekklesia (qâhâl or ‛êdâh), albeit it has taken on a different form under the new covenant.

No sense getting hung up on the word assembly or ecclesia. Context is required. The assembly who are either dead or alive IN Jesus will be raptured. After that a new assembly will be here and before Jesus a former assembly was here! All are believers and eventually I would think we all will be one. In prophesy, however, there are a certain bunch Raptured. You can call them a tomato if you like.

 

[WPM]

As far as applying that to the future. The assemblies of various ages are not all those who are in Christ. If the word church to you means believers in Jesus, then obviously the Jews in the desert were not the church. If church just means (as it is meant to here) believers in God, then fine. If you then chose to misuse the word by applying it to the tribulation period, when believers in Christ, dead and alive have been taken up already, well, then it is just a word game. Sure, we can call the old testament and tribulation and millennium believers all 'the church' if you like! In that case, we simply call the dead and alive in Christ just before the tribulation period something else! Do you think, for example that at the time of the Rapture that more than the dead in Christ will rise? Do you think for example that Noah and Adam will be in the Rapture??

Bingo. Pre Christ.

? What 'new testament gathering of Jews? Never heard of that one.

Yet Israel is here in the tribulation immersed in the wrath of God and the believers in Jesus, dead and alive are not. There will be multitudes of new believers that come to faith during that time. So if we are in heaven in the tribulation, and many of the tribulation saints are not even saved yet, and the ones that are on on planet earth, how is it you think we are the same entity at this time exactly? In the future, after Jesus returns, well, believers both in Christ, and from other times will be together! You seem to be getting your tenses confused.

No sense getting hung up on the word assembly or ecclesia. Context is required. The assembly who are either dead or alive IN Jesus will be raptured. After that a new assembly will be here and before Jesus a former assembly was here! All are believers and eventually I would think we all will be one. In prophesy, however, there are a certain bunch Raptured. You can call them a tomato if you like.

So, the Church has been around for a long time. We are the NT assembly of God. Israel was the OT assembly of God. Simple!

King James insisted on the word ekklesia being interpreted as "Church" rather than assembly or congregation, as he was a high Church Anglican and closet Romanist. This is brought a lot of confusion to Christians over the years, especially Dispies.

 

[dad]

So, the Church has been around for a long time. We are the NT assembly of God. Israel was the OT assembly of God. Simple!

So only the 'new testament' as you call it, believers in Jesus (alive and dead) are in the Rapture. Simple

 

[WPM]

So only the 'new testament' as you call it, believers in Jesus (alive and dead) are in the Rapture. Simple

Not true. The old saints were looking forward to the life, death and resurrection of Christ. We look back. We are all in Christ by faith. We are one people, one body and one spiritual temple. Christ does not believe in spiritual apartheid amongst His eternal family. There is no division or schism. We are all one!

Ephesians 2:10-19 declares, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (politeia or citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens (sumpolites) with the saints, and of the household of God. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

In the light of the evidence before us, and due to the noise coming from the Dispensational camp, the important question that must be asked in this hour is: are there two distinct and unique spiritual peoples of God on planet earth today, or does God just have one spiritual people? Is natural Israel God’s chosen earthly people and is the New Testament Church His heavenly people, as per Dispensational theology, or is God’s people a unitary transnational spiritual body found throughout all generations?

When you don’t have a theological agenda and you don’t feel compelled to justify a doctrinal position then you are free to let the Bible speaks for itself. This is the place of spiritual liberty. You are qualified to hear from God.

One thing that is abundantly clear when you let the sacred text say what it says is that there is a oneness to the people of God throughout time. There are no divisions or subsets in the body of Christ. They are one harmonious group. Even though the people of God are found under two different covenants, even though they come from varying racial backgrounds and different social classes, they are inextricably connected to each other through their faith in the Messiah Christ.

The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the oneness of God’s people. Those who disagree have to fight with numerous explicit Scripture. This is not a good place to be.

If there is only one Gospel, pointing to one Savior, that produces one salvation, would it not make sense that there is one people of God? The Bible only recognizes one elect spiritual people throughout time who belong to Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Old Testament and also equally the God of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John in the New Testament. The Old and New Testament saints are joined together through Israel’s Messiah and Redeemer Jesus Christ. In Him, and through faith, they become Abraham's spiritual seed, citizens of true believing Israel, and heirs according to the promise.

We have seen as we have looked at both the origin and development of Israel and that of the ekklesia that these are equivalent designations that represent the exact same people that traverse both covenants. Whilst we saw there was/is an outward visible manifestation of each, true Israel and the true ekklesia are the same ongoing remnant within the overall whole which contains all those who personally belong to God. They are His faithful elect. This reality totally strips Dispensationalism of its core hypothesis that Israel and the ekklesia are two completely separate peoples who are divided in identity, age, calling and destiny. In both testaments, the people of God included both Jews and Gentiles.

Natural Israelites and natural Gentiles enter into an eternal covenant relationship with Yahweh God through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This text tells us that Christ did “reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross” (2:16). It presents “the blood of Christ” (2:13) as the divine work that brings ancient enemies together spiritually as one. The Savior is the crucial factor in unifying God’s people throughout all time. The Old Testament saints looked forward by faith to the promised Redeemer, whereas the New Testament Church now looks back. The unity and continuity are undoubted.

There are many unique metaphors used in the New Testament that you cannot find in the Old Testament. That does not negate the fact that God's people throughout time are one. They are a unitary whole. You cannot divide them in two. You cannot decapitate them.Let us be clear, we are dealing with the greater and fuller revelation in the New Testament. It puts meat on the bones to the old covenant disclosure. What is vague or absurd in the Old Testament is fully revealed in the New Testament. This is something that many Dispensationalists do not seem to see.

 

[dad]

Not true. The old saints were looking forward to the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

And well they should. That does not mean they are the dead in Christ though.

We look back. We are all in Christ by faith. We are one people, one body and one spiritual temple. Christ does not believe in spiritual apartheid amongst His eternal family. There is no division or schism. We are all one!

Yes people were saved by believing He would come one day. That does not mean they are the dead in Christ.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/revelation-resurrections.png

I might even consider another resurrection at the end of the 1000 years for the millennium saints!

In the light of the evidence before us, and due to the noise coming from the Dispensational camp, the important question that must be asked in this hour is: are there two distinct and unique spiritual peoples of God on planet earth today, or does God just have one spiritual people?

The dead in Christ are a group but that does not mean the only group. For the Rapture it is the dead in Christ and we who are alive.

Is natural Israel God’s chosen earthly people and is the New Testament Church His heavenly people, as per Dispensational theology, or is God’s people a unitary transnational spiritual body found throughout all generations?

No. Unbelieving Israel are not God's people. Only the believers are. The time when all Israel is saved and then restored to the land is in the end after they are believers.

One thing that is abundantly clear when you let the sacred text say what it says is that there is a oneness to the people of God throughout time. There are no divisions or subsets in the body of Christ.

Yes, in the Rapture for example there are those who died already and whose spirits are in heaven, as well as we on earth that believe, all rising to receive new bodies. The dead in Christ indicate those who believed in Jesus Christ. I don't think it includes the old testament believers that never saw His coming to earth. In the pic (link) I posted above it illustrates that.

 

[WPM]

And well they should. That does not mean they are the dead in Christ though.

Yes people were saved by believing He would come one day. That does not mean they are the dead in Christ.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/revelation-resurrections.png

I might even consider another resurrection at the end of the 1000 years for the millennium saints!




The dead in Christ are a group but that does not mean the only group. For the Rapture it is the dead in Christ and we who are alive.

No. Unbelieving Israel are not God's people. Only the believers are. The time when all Israel is saved and then restored to the land is in the end after they are believers.

Yes, in the Rapture for example there are those who died already and whose spirits are in heaven, as well as we on earth that believe, all rising to receive new bodies. The dead in Christ indicate those who believed in Jesus Christ. I don't think it includes the old testament believers that never saw His coming to earth. In the pic (link) I posted above it illustrates that.

I refer you back to my last post that rebuts this.

 

[dad]

I refer you back to my last post that rebuts this.

I bring to your attention to the fact that there was no such thing. No verse you posted even deals with the rapture of the dead in Christ etc. Face it.

I agree with this

"
That leads to the next question: What about the Old Testament saints? When will they be physically resurrected?


We find the answer to that in Daniel 12:1-2: “There shall be a time of trouble…at that time your people will be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”


“A time of trouble” speaks of the tribulation, the seven-year period of judgment that occurs after the rapture. “Your people will be delivered” lines up with that great day at the end of the tribulation when Christ will return and the Jewish people will look upon the one whom they pierced, and cry out for salvation (Zechariah 12:10). It is at this time that “those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life.” After the tribulation, when Christ returns to earth to set up His kingdom, the Old Testament saints will be physically resurrected.


Finally, what about those Christians who are put to death during the tribulation? The rapture will have already happened. When will the souls of the tribulation saints be reunited with their bodies?


Revelation 20:4 tells us they will be physically resurrected at Christ’s return: “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”


The tribulation saints will experience their physical resurrection at Christ’s second coming, just like the Old Testament saints. At that time, all three groups of believers—the New Testament saints, Old Testament saints, and tribulation saints—will share the glorious experience of entering Christ’s millennial kingdom together to reign with Him."

When Will the Old Testament Saints, New Testament Saints, and Tribulation Saints Be Physically Resurrected? - Harvest Prophecy

Scripture makes it clear that spiritually, when we die, we are immediately and consciously ushered into the presence of the Lord. In Philippians 1:21-23, Paul wrote, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain…I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ.” In...

harvestprophecyhq.com

 

[WPM]

“A time of trouble” speaks of the tribulation, the seven-year period of judgment that occurs after the rapture.

You keep making these sweeping claims without supporting it with any hard Scripture or twisting Scripture that does not say what you say it does. That is because Pretrib has nothing in the Bible. It is foisted upon it. Can you present one single rapture passage that teaches there will be “a time of trouble,” a "seven-year period of judgment" or a seven-year ... tribulation" following it?

 

[dad]

You keep making these sweeping claims without supporting it with any hard Scripture or twisting Scripture that does not say what you say it does. That is because Pretrib has nothing in the Bible. It is foisted upon it. Can you present one single rapture passage that teaches there will be “a time of trouble,” a "seven-year period of judgment" or a seven-year ... tribulation" following it?

My last post quoted Daniel actually. One should know what the time of trouble is. For any who are a little lost,

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

As Jesus pointed out the tribulation is a time of trouble unlike any other before or after.