You are avoiding! Where is the rapture there (or anywhere) followed by a tribulation?
Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture
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dad
Well-Known Member
Where isn't it? Your so called proofs went poof. Apparently one of your lines of reason was that the church was not raptured because you want to call all believers of all ages the church. Not very sound. When asked about who the dead IN Christ were, I do not recall any clear answer from you?
Mankind is split into two. There is saved and there is lost - those who are “in Christ” and those who are “in Adam.”I bring to your attention to the fact that there was no such thing. No verse you posted even deals with the rapture of the dead in Christ etc. Face it.
I agree with this
"
That leads to the next question: What about the Old Testament saints? When will they be physically resurrected?
We find the answer to that in Daniel 12:1-2: “There shall be a time of trouble…at that time your people will be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
“A time of trouble” speaks of the tribulation, the seven-year period of judgment that occurs after the rapture. “Your people will be delivered” lines up with that great day at the end of the tribulation when Christ will return and the Jewish people will look upon the one whom they pierced, and cry out for salvation (Zechariah 12:10). It is at this time that “those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life.” After the tribulation, when Christ returns to earth to set up His kingdom, the Old Testament saints will be physically resurrected.
Finally, what about those Christians who are put to death during the tribulation? The rapture will have already happened. When will the souls of the tribulation saints be reunited with their bodies?
Revelation 20:4 tells us they will be physically resurrected at Christ’s return: “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
The tribulation saints will experience their physical resurrection at Christ’s second coming, just like the Old Testament saints. At that time, all three groups of believers—the New Testament saints, Old Testament saints, and tribulation saints—will share the glorious experience of entering Christ’s millennial kingdom together to reign with Him."
When Will the Old Testament Saints, New Testament Saints, and Tribulation Saints Be Physically Resurrected? - Harvest Prophecy
Scripture makes it clear that spiritually, when we die, we are immediately and consciously ushered into the presence of the Lord. In Philippians 1:21-23, Paul wrote, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain…I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ.” In...harvestprophecyhq.com
All mankind was/is legally represented in one or other of Adam – the first Adam who brought condemnation, and eternal death or the second Adam (Jesus Christ) who brought deliverance and eternal life.I bring to your attention to the fact that there was no such thing. No verse you posted even deals with the rapture of the dead in Christ etc. Face it.
I agree with this
"
That leads to the next question: What about the Old Testament saints? When will they be physically resurrected?
We find the answer to that in Daniel 12:1-2: “There shall be a time of trouble…at that time your people will be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
“A time of trouble” speaks of the tribulation, the seven-year period of judgment that occurs after the rapture. “Your people will be delivered” lines up with that great day at the end of the tribulation when Christ will return and the Jewish people will look upon the one whom they pierced, and cry out for salvation (Zechariah 12:10). It is at this time that “those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life.” After the tribulation, when Christ returns to earth to set up His kingdom, the Old Testament saints will be physically resurrected.
Finally, what about those Christians who are put to death during the tribulation? The rapture will have already happened. When will the souls of the tribulation saints be reunited with their bodies?
Revelation 20:4 tells us they will be physically resurrected at Christ’s return: “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
The tribulation saints will experience their physical resurrection at Christ’s second coming, just like the Old Testament saints. At that time, all three groups of believers—the New Testament saints, Old Testament saints, and tribulation saints—will share the glorious experience of entering Christ’s millennial kingdom together to reign with Him."
When Will the Old Testament Saints, New Testament Saints, and Tribulation Saints Be Physically Resurrected? - Harvest Prophecy
Scripture makes it clear that spiritually, when we die, we are immediately and consciously ushered into the presence of the Lord. In Philippians 1:21-23, Paul wrote, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain…I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ.” In...
1 Corinthians 15:45-49: “And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."
The first Adam was the federal head of man through natural birth; Christ (the last Adam) is the federal head of all those who have entered into salvation via the second birth. These are two diverse companies of people. These two groups cover the whole remit of humankind. If men aren’t represented in Christ then they are represented in Adam. If they are found in Christ then Christ has bore their sin and endowed them with His robes of righteousness. They are accounted acceptable before God, through the life, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. He entered into a covenant to redeem a lost people. In that eternal covenant, our sins where imputed to Christ and His righteousness was imputed to us.
All our legal or covenant responsibilities where rested upon Christ, and all His legal or covenant merits were attributed to us. This work is the eternal basis of our justification by faith. Spiritual life can only be found in Christ alone. Those that are outside of Christ are destined to a lost eternity.
Scripture places all men either "in Adam" or "in Christ." Men either have one birth (or are merely born of the flesh) or they possess a spiritual birth (or a second birth) which regenerates them and brings them amongst the redeemed. It has been like that from the beginning.
Adam goes right back to the beginning. Christ is before the beginning. Christ was man's hope and redeemer from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).
Every man since Adam is born with original sin and therefore stands completely guilty before a righteous God. In the first Adam (the first nature) all are sinners and therefore destined to lost eternity. The Bible says, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12).
Man – in all generations – inherited Adam’s awful sinful nature, which ultimately separates man from a holy God. So we can see, man, irrespective of race, birthplace or birth date, shares the same pitiful deformity.
Romans 5:15 says, "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
The awful “condemnation” that afflicts every man since the fall through inherited sin is completely removed “in Christ” through the new birth experience. Through salvation the penitent is fully justified and “made righteous” in the eyes of God. He is taken instantly from spiritual death into spiritual life by being raised from a horrible spiritual grave.
The Bible tells us: “in Adam all die” (1 Corinthians 15:22) – that is both physically and spiritually – whereas “in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). In the first Adam we are destined to eternal death, whereas in Christ (the second or last Adam) we are assured eternal life.
Man’s first birth was not adequate enough to save him. Jesus emphasizes: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh” (John 3:6) Man needed a second birth. He needed divine intervention in order to help him see things properly and do things right. His spirit had to be made alive. Jesus went on to say: “… and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
Romans 5:18-19 says, “as by the offence of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
Scripture places men in one of two distinct groups since the beginning – those in Adam and those in Christ. Those in Adam simply experience one birth in life and never come to know the joy of the second spiritual birth. They are filled with themselves and their own selfish desires and thoughts. This company is made up of Jew and Gentile alike throughout time. The second group are those “in Christ,” referring to the redeemed throughout time (before and after the cross). They represent every person that has been saved by God’s grace and washed in the blood of Jesus and have known the joy of sins forgiven. Those in Christ have experienced a second birth – a spiritual birth, they are indwelt, kept and governed by the Spirit of God. This is the only salvation known to man.
Before the cross the believer looked forward by faith to the finished work of the cross of Jesus, today we look back by faith to the atoning work of Christ. Al belong to the one unitary people of God.
dad
Well-Known Member
dad
Well-Known Member
dad
Well-Known Member
There are different times that believers live in. Those after Jesus get Raptured. Apparently the old testament believers and trib saints get raptured when Jesus returns. Not all believers from past and future are in that event
Too bad the Rapture is for specific believers in a specific time.
This is not about being saved, it is about which saved are Raptured.
Great, nothing to do with the Rapture. Once again you are too busy picking daisies out in left field to notice that you are supposed to be addressing the Rapture here, not how to be saved or who all over all ages is saved.
dad
Well-Known Member
Who cares what they said? Was it mentioned? By who? If we are not appointed to wrath and the tribulation is part of His wrath, then how would we be there?
dad
Well-Known Member
No. Not every one. I don't care too much what anyone says unless the bible says so too. The prophets told us plenty. Jesus as well. The writers He used for the new testament etc. So if you have some claim on the timing of the Rapture or something you will need to pony up
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
That will happen to all saints when Jesus comes in complete vengeance with everlasting judgment.
All who have believed will be glorified on this day.
2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].
dad
Well-Known Member
Why do you say that?
The people who distress His people will get dealt with when Jesus returns. Nothing to do with the Rapture
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
dad
Well-Known Member
The tribulation saints and old testament saints are raised when He returns. We are raised, as far as I can tell, before the wrath, not after it. You seem to conflate events.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
dad
Well-Known Member
Why do you ask, if the Rapture is being glorified, so is being resurrected (old testament and tribulation saints) when Jesus returns. Did you think it was only one event where people get resurrected? (glorified)
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Yes, one event.
Paul said all who have believed the Gospel testimony will be glorified when he appears. The dead and living in Christ.
2Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure [from this world] is at hand and I will soon go free. 7 I have fought the good and worthy and noble fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith [firmly guarding the gospel against error]. 8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.
2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].
1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are [even here and] now children of God, and it is not yet made clear what we will be [after His coming]. We know that when He comes and is revealed, we will [as His children] be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is [in all His glory].
Phil 3
20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
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