Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[WPM]

Your buddy said the same thing to me awhile back. Then he responds to my post to you and starts playing victim cards and so I responded to him and he got offended and I hurt his feelings. Now he says he wont respond to me anymore AGAIN.

You promise? Does he promise? That would be totally cool with me.

Read what I said. I did not say I would ignore you, I said it is a waste of time engaging with you. You seem incapable of biblically discussing anything.

And, no, my buddy does not easily take offence. He recognizes what the rest of us see in you - zero biblical arguments, and much ad hominem.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You duck around the central points that I am making and simply just repeat what you believe.

This is not true. My response challenged the validity of your argument, which assumes a definition of "first resurrection" contrary to Premillennialism. You can't misrepresent or oversimplify your opponent's position to make your attack easier.

 

[WPM]

This is not true. My response challenged the validity of your argument, which assumes a definition of "first resurrection" contrary to Premillennialism. You can't misrepresent or oversimplify your opponent's position to make your attack easier.

Not so! I showed you what Scripture says. You ducked around it. It is God's Book that dismantles your reasoning.

I refer you back to what I wrote.

 

[MA2444]

Read what I said. I did not say I would ignore you, I said it is a waste of time engaging with you. You seem incapable of biblically discussing anything.

And, no, my buddy does not easily take offence. He recognizes what the rest of us see in you - zero biblical arguments, and much ad hominem.

If you would discuss with any other intent than to control the narrative maybe I would?

And your buddy did take offense! You see all the victim cards that he played?!

 

[WPM]

If you would discuss with any other intent than to control the narrative maybe I would?

And your buddy did take offense! You see all the victim cards that he played?!

Let us start with the Op. That is what this thread is all about. Where is the Op wrong in your estimation? Please address my arguments.

 

[tailgator]

No, he said the dead in Christ that are reigning now in Christ are there in spirit. The physical resurrection comes at the end of Revelation 20.

The dead in Christ are dead.They are not reigning over anyone at the moment.

The resurected saints in revelation 20 are reigning over the nations in the Lords land.That takes place after Christ has come and destroys the beast that killed those saints.


Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.




I know who it is that rules over the nations in the Lords land.As of today,the beast rules over them.Christ has not come and destroyed the beast yet and the kingdom has not been given to those saints yet.

 

[WPM]

The dead in Christ are dead.They are not reigning over anyone at the moment.

The resurected saints in revelation 20 are reigning over the nations in the Lords land.That takes place after Christ has come and destroys the beast that killed those saints.


Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.




I know who it is that rules over the nations in the Lords land.As of today,the beast rules over them.Christ has not come and destroyed the beast yet and the kingdom has not been given to those saints yet.

We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now. The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now. After we enter into this resurrection we enter into our eternal reign in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense). We reign in life and we reign in death. We reign in time and we reign in eternity.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. Such was secured through Christ’s victorious work at Calvary. There, Christ defeated every enemy of righteousness – including sin, death, the grave, hell, Satan, sickness, the demonic realm, and so on. The people of God, being “in Christ,” have therefore entered into that victory and have been given kingdom authority over the demonic realm through the blood of Jesus when moving in the Spirit and in the will of God. In fact, the word "shall" in the King James Version doesn’t actually appear in the original but is added by the translators.

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth” (v. 9).

There is little doubt this scene is current and relates to a time-period preceding the second coming of the Lord. Moreover, no reasonable Bible student would surely deny that the reading relates to anything other than the redeemed situated in heaven. Here, the disembodied spirits of the elect in heaven are seen reigning as kings and priests now. Significantly, and like Revelation 20:4, the dead in Christ in heaven are described (in relation to their kingship and priesthood) as “hast made” – proving this is speaking of the current fulfilment of the same. The aorist active indicative demonstrates that this is ongoing in this intra-Advent period.

John sees those that have been saved in heaven and explains how they continue in their kingly/priestly position. Here we see the two spiritual offices that believers (dead or alive) exercise and enjoy “in Christ.” They are kings and priests. The humble servant-hood of the true believer and his self-sacrificing walk is connected to his priestly position, whereas his reigning in spiritual power and authority is related to his kingly office.

This dual role of kingship and priesthood is not just restricted to the redeemed in heaven, or does it commence at entry into the heavenly shore, it begins upon this earth at the new birth. The family of God today are positionally reigning as kings and priest in both heaven and on earth. They perform such an awesome function in and through the person of Christ and His impeccable life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection. In fact, 1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifices and intercede for the people. We fulfill that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfill that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

We are presently a kingly priesthood. This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord.

 

[tailgator]

We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now. The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now. After we enter into this resurrection we enter into our eternal reign in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense). We reign in life and we reign in death. We reign in time and we reign in eternity.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. Such was secured through Christ’s victorious work at Calvary. There, Christ defeated every enemy of righteousness – including sin, death, the grave, hell, Satan, sickness, the demonic realm, and so on. The people of God, being “in Christ,” have therefore entered into that victory and have been given kingdom authority over the demonic realm through the blood of Jesus when moving in the Spirit and in the will of God. In fact, the word "shall" in the King James Version doesn’t actually appear in the original but is added by the translators.

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth” (v. 9).

There is little doubt this scene is current and relates to a time-period preceding the second coming of the Lord. Moreover, no reasonable Bible student would surely deny that the reading relates to anything other than the redeemed situated in heaven. Here, the disembodied spirits of the elect in heaven are seen reigning as kings and priests now. Significantly, and like Revelation 20:4, the dead in Christ in heaven are described (in relation to their kingship and priesthood) as “hast made” – proving this is speaking of the current fulfilment of the same. The aorist active indicative demonstrates that this is ongoing in this intra-Advent period.

John sees those that have been saved in heaven and explains how they continue in their kingly/priestly position. Here we see the two spiritual offices that believers (dead or alive) exercise and enjoy “in Christ.” They are kings and priests. The humble servant-hood of the true believer and his self-sacrificing walk is connected to his priestly position, whereas his reigning in spiritual power and authority is related to his kingly office.

This dual role of kingship and priesthood is not just restricted to the redeemed in heaven, or does it commence at entry into the heavenly shore, it begins upon this earth at the new birth. The family of God today are positionally reigning as kings and priest in both heaven and on earth. They perform such an awesome function in and through the person of Christ and His impeccable life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection. In fact, 1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifices and intercede for the people. We fulfill that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfill that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

We are presently a kingly priesthood. This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord.[/S]

What nations are you reigning over,,?


Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[WPM]

What nations are you reigning over,,?


Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

You are a very quick reader. LOL.

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”

That is just talking about judgment day. Nothing more, nothing less. Where is your future 1,000 years mentioned there? Nowhere! It is actually Premil that lacks evidence and corroboration. We are going to join Christ in exercising authority and judgment over the nations on Judgment Day!

The judgment believers possess is in their current spiritual standing in Christ. He rules and reigns over the wicked now. This is a positional thing.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3 says, “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”

Scripture clearly shows us that “the saints will judge the world” and “shall judge angels.” In short, the righteous judge the wicked through their spiritual standing “in Christ.” As “joint-heirs” with the Savior (Romans 8:18), we stand with Him in the judgment. This is a very privileged position.

When does this happen?

When Jesus comes in His glory. Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This fits in with countless passages in Holy Writ that demonstrate that judgment day is an event that occurs on the last day, where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are banished to the lake of fire. We do not need to import anything else into these. For you to do otherwise is to depict your millennium as one ongoing judgment of natural Israel. This is the opposite to classic Premil that elevates Israel to a favor place in their millennium and shows them restoring their whole old covenant apparatus in the presence of Jesus.

This passage locates “the regeneration” at the second coming “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” Here, they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so! I showed you what Scripture says.

You did not. You created a strawman argument against premillennialism, and you got caught.

 

[WPM]

You did not. You created a strawman argument against premillennialism, and you got caught.

Please address the detail, instead of skirting around it. That is because it is watertight.

 

[tailgator]

You are a very quick reader. LOL.

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”

That is just talking about judgment day. Nothing more, nothing less. Where is your future 1,000 years mentioned there? Nowhere! It is actually Premil that lacks evidence and corroboration. We are going to join Christ in exercising authority and judgment over the nations on Judgment Day!

The judgment believers possess is in their current spiritual standing in Christ. He rules and reigns over the wicked now. This is a positional thing.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3 says, “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”

Scripture clearly shows us that “the saints will judge the world” and “shall judge angels.” In short, the righteous judge the wicked through their spiritual standing “in Christ.” As “joint-heirs” with the Savior (Romans 8:18), we stand with Him in the judgment. This is a very privileged position.

When does this happen?

When Jesus comes in His glory. Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This fits in with countless passages in Holy Writ that demonstrate that judgment day is an event that occurs on the last day, where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are banished to the lake of fire. We do not need to import anything else into these. For you to do otherwise is to depict your millennium as one ongoing judgment of natural Israel. This is the opposite to classic Premil that elevates Israel to a favor place in their millennium and shows them restoring their whole old covenant apparatus in the presence of Jesus.

This passage locates “the regeneration” at the second coming “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” Here, they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The resurected saints who are resurected on judgement day reign over the nations in the lords land for 1000 years before the nations outside of the kingdom comes against them.

The 1000 years is simply the Sabbath of the Lord.
Them who are resurected and are a holy kingdom of priests keep the Sabbath of the Lord.


The resurection doesn't take place till judgement day when Christ comes and raises the dead in Christ .It is at that time Israell reigns over the nations in the lords land as seen in revelation 20.

You have not been resurrected with them who are beheaded for their witness of Jesus because the dead in Christ have not been resurected yet.


Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



This resurection takes place when Israel is judged.
These who have overcome and remained faithful untill death reign with Christ over the nations in the Lords land .(The kingdom of God and of Christ).


They are not reigning over clouds.They are reigning on earth in the lords land.

 

[tailgator]

Lol. Checkmate. Zero rebuttals. You have nothing to bring to the table. That is because it is watertight.

Do you even know who this is talking about?

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[WPM]

The resurected saints who are resurected on judgement day reign over the nations in the lords land for 1000 years before the nations outside of the kingdom comes against them.

The 1000 years is simply the Sabbath of the Lord.
Them who are resurected and are a holy kingdom of priests keep the Sabbath of the Lord.


The resurection doesn't take place till judgement day when Christ comes and raises the dead in Christ .It is at that time Israell reigns over the nations in the lords land as seen in revelation 20.

You have not been resurrected with them who are beheaded for their witness of Jesus because the dead in Christ have not been resurected yet.


Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



This resurection takes place when Israel is judged.
These who have overcome and remained faithful untill death reign with Christ over the nations in the Lords land .(The kingdom of God and of Christ).


They are not reigning over clouds.They are reigning on earth in the lords land.

We reign now, when Jesus comes and forever. The reigning over the nations at the end is simply the judgment. That is it! The word means to shepherd.

 

[tailgator]

We reign now, when Jesus comes and forever. The reigning over the nations at the end is simply the judgment. That is it! The word means to shepherd.

While your reigning,you make sure you pay your taxes so them who govern you don't come and take everything you have your highness.

 

[tailgator]

We reign now, when Jesus comes and forever. The reigning over the nations at the end is simply the judgment. That is it! The word means to shepherd.

Do you even know who this is talking about?


Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[WPM]

While your reigning,you make sure you pay your taxes so them who govern you don't come and take everything you have your highness.

You mock out of ignorance. You may carry no authority and no power in the kingdom of God but born again Christians do. They carry delegated spiritual authority from heaven. They reign over the dark spiritual realm.

 

[Davidpt]

He had stated in another thread that the resurected saints in revelation 20 were not bodily resurected.

Ezekiel 37 shows that they are bodily resurected and that they live in the land of Israel when Gog comes against them in Ezekiel 38.

For some reason he believes the resurected saints of Israel who died for their testimony of Jesus and who did not worship the beast or it's image,nor received its mark will be spiritually resurected and float around in the sky.Both revelation 20 and Ezekiel 37 shows those saints living on earth when Gog comes against them as God said they would in Deuteronomy.

FWIW, I get your point loud and clear. I have no reading comprehension issues with what you are arguing and why you are arguing it the way you are.

That's what's wrong with Amil here. The way they are interpreting Revelation 20:4 does not flow into verses 7-9. They have it disconnected from that, where it's not even involving anyone in verse 4 when verses 7-9 takes place. They just don't get it. Verses 7-9 is involving those that have been reigning a thousand years with Christ. Except Amil has them still dead and living in a disembodied state when Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning.

 

[Davidpt]

To add to my post #91 since it is being ignored thus far by Amils, I submit this.

Even those cross reference sites where you can check cross refs, that if you submit Daniel 7:22 it lists Revelation 20:4 as a cross ref. That if you submit Daniel 7:21 it lists Revelation 13:5-7 as a cross ref.

Anyone that knows anything about Eschatology at all, knows full well that the 2nd coming follows what Revelation 13:5-7 is involving. Therefore, if Daniel 7:21 is involving Revelation 13:5-7, and that Daniel 7:22 follows that, it couldn't possibly have to take a rocket scientist to figure out that verse 22 is meaning the 2nd coming. And if verse 22 is meaning the beginning of the millennium, it couldn't possibly take a rocket scientist to have to figure it out that the millennium is meaning after the 2nd coming because Daniel 7:22 is meaning the 2nd coming and is meaning the beginning of the millennium. That is obviously Premil, the same Premil the OP insists contradicts Scripture.

Is not Daniel 7:21-22, Revelation 13:5-7, and Revelation 20:4 Scripture? So why isn't Premil contradicting those Scriptures but Amil is? Did the OP perhaps make a typo in the title of his thread and meant to say this instead? Indisputable proof that the Amillennial theory contradicts Scripture. BTW, you can fix typos like that by using the edit feature. :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When did he say that?

Never. I can't believe how many lies I see on this Christian forum. Have churches started preaching that lying is not a sin these days?