Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

[rwb]

No, that's not what the genitive case means. It describes the nature of something, not it's location. There other ways the Greek language uses to locate something.

You clearly don't understand the genitive case. To you it means what you want it to mean, specifically whatever it takes to align with your preconceived ideas. That's just not how any language works, let alone Greek which is arguably the most precise language in all history.

The description of the heavenly these faithful saints looked for is "better", not the same as that which they came out, they could have returned to, but confessing to be strangers and pilgrims on the earth, they seek a country far better. A heavenly home, looking for a city whose builder and maker is God. "Wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city."

Hebrews 11:10 (KJV) For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:13-16 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

It's clear for those who read this passage without trying to force their doctrines into the passage. These faithful saints of Old longed for a spiritual city, not land on this earth but something far better. Greater describing what they looked for that would be far better than the country and they came out of. They had no desire to return to that physical country and city. They died longing for spiritual fulfillment of Mount Sion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. They had to wait for the advent of the promised Messiah to come to make atonement for sin, and defeat death before they could spiritually ascend to heaven with Him.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[IndianaRob]

The description of the heavenly these faithful saints looked for is "better", not the same as that which they came out, they could have returned to, but confessing to be strangers and pilgrims on the earth, they seek a country far better. A heavenly home, looking for a city whose builder and maker is God. "Wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city."

Hebrews 11:10 (KJV) For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:13-16 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

It's clear for those who read this passage without trying to force their doctrines into the passage. These faithful saints of Old longed for a spiritual city, not land on this earth but something far better. Greater describing what they looked for that would be far better than the country and they came out of. They had no desire to return to that physical country and city. They died longing for spiritual fulfillment of Mount Sion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. They had to wait for the advent of the promised Messiah to come to make atonement for sin, and defeat death before they could spiritually ascend to heaven with Him.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

100% correct except they ascended in the glorified body not spiritually.

 

[rwb]

100% correct except they ascended in the glorified body not spiritually.

They could not have ascended in glorified body, because none shall be bodily resurrected immortal & incorruptible before the hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds that time given this earth whereby mankind must be saved shall be no longer.

 

[IndianaRob]

They could not have ascended in glorified body, because none shall be bodily resurrected immortal & incorruptible before the hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds that time given this earth whereby mankind must be saved shall be no longer.

I would agree agree with you if Paul would have said the earthly body gets a heavenly body but he didn’t say that. Paul said the “bare grain” which is the soul is what gets the heavenly body.

Our old body doesn’t need a new body to live in heaven, our soul needs a new body in order to live in heaven.

 

[rwb]

I would agree agree with you if Paul would have said the earthly body gets a heavenly body but he didn’t say that. Paul said the “bare grain” which is the soul is what gets the heavenly body.

Our old body doesn’t need a new body to live in heaven, our soul needs a new body in order to live in heaven.

We continue to be living souls in heaven after our natural body of flesh dies. Since our flesh became a corpse the only way we can continue to have life (be living soul) without physical body in heaven is through our eternal spirit. Because it is the spirit in mankind that receives eternal life when we are born again of the Spirit sent from Christ. Our human body is destined to death, and then return to dust of the earth.

Paul defines that which is physical, of the earth, like Adam as natural body. Heaven is the realm of God and the heavenly hosts because spirits have no body as we have, they are spirit beings. Our spirit being born again through the Holy Spirit never dies, because Christ says that even though we die (physically) we shall live. Not in the natural body, but as Paul writes as a spiritual body of Christ in heaven, because death no longer has dominion over we who have been made eternally spiritually alive through Christ.

 

[IndianaRob]

We continue to be living souls in heaven after our natural body of flesh dies. Since our flesh became a corpse the only way we can continue to have life (be living soul) without physical body in heaven is through our eternal spirit. Because it is the spirit in mankind that receives eternal life when we are born again of the Spirit sent from Christ. Our human body is destined to death, and then return to dust of the earth.

Paul defines that which is physical, of the earth, like Adam as natural body. Heaven is the realm of God and the heavenly hosts because spirits have no body as we have, they are spirit beings. Our spirit being born again through the Holy Spirit never dies, because Christ says that even though we die (physically) we shall live. Not in the natural body, but as Paul writes as a spiritual body of Christ in heaven, because death no longer has dominion over we who have been made eternally spiritually alive through Christ.

I won’t argue the point because your views are by far closer to reality than most peoples.

 

[Rich R]

The description of the heavenly these faithful saints looked for is "better", not the same as that which they came out, they could have returned to, but confessing to be strangers and pilgrims on the earth, they seek a country far better. A heavenly home, looking for a city whose builder and maker is God. "Wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city."

Hebrews 11:10 (KJV) For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:13-16 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

It's clear for those who read this passage without trying to force their doctrines into the passage. These faithful saints of Old longed for a spiritual city, not land on this earth but something far better.

I read those verses in Hebrew three times to make sure I wasn't missing something, but sure enough, they don't say anything about a "spiritual" city.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Are you sure you understand the word "spirit" as those to whom God wrote understood it?

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Yes, Jesus is presently in the heaven with God. He'll be there until he returns and sets up the everlasting kingdom on earth as per the promise God made to Israel. But you don't even have to read all the prophets if you don't want. You can see it clearly by just reading 2 chapters, Revelation 20 & 21. Note particularly that Revelation 21 talks about the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. Nothing about it going back up though.

 

[rwb]

I read those verses in Hebrew three times to make sure I wasn't missing something, but sure enough, they don't say anything about a "spiritual" city.

Are you sure you understand the word "spirit" as those to whom God wrote understood it?

Yes, Jesus is presently in the heaven with God. He'll be there until he returns and sets up the everlasting kingdom on earth as per the promise God made to Israel. But you don't even have to read all the prophets if you don't want. You can see it clearly by just reading 2 chapters, Revelation 20 & 21. Note particularly that Revelation 21 talks about the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. Nothing about it going back up though.

I don't mean to be rude Rich but I am frankly sick of your unproven opinions!

Since you do mention Rev 21 have you overlooked the fact that New Jerusalem shall come down from heaven AFTER the first heaven and earth has passed away? That won't be for one thousand years but will be forevermore! Not a single word about a temporary earth or even a place on earth where Christ will come again to temporarily establish His Kingdom for one thousand years as you imagine!

Revelation 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[Taken]

Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

My Obligation to satisfy God IS to Believe and Trust IN Him, His Word, His Understanding.

1) Scripture reveals ancient History…particularly focusing on Gods Established…

A) Divisions

B) Ancient Destruction of the Earth, Most of it’s inhabitants, An Escape Plan for but A Few Faithful and How God accomplished His Plan.

C) Foretold in the Knowledge of Gods Approved Word…IS another (Yet to come to pass)
**** WITH SIMILITUDES regarding the FIRST Destruction of the Earth and it’s Unfaithful Inhabitants) ****
Destruction of the Earth, Most of it’s inhabitants, An Escape Plan for the Few Faithful to the Lord God Almighty.

Study OF the SIMILITUDES:
Of the ones who ESCAPE, how, why, where, when…..is Revealed IN Scripture.

Study OF the SIMILITUDES:
Regarding the “People” who do NOT ESCAPE….is Revealed IN Scripture.

Proof, Disagreement, A mans demands, IS NOT the measure by which a man MUST Comply to satisfy An individual man while the one IS establishing A FOREVER one on one Relationship WITH the Lord God Almighty.

God has set before Every man…a “division” of TWO PATHS that that man may freely Choose…and the Consequences thereof, FOR “each” mans Choice.

ESCAPE … FROM (negative consequences) IS Scripturally Taught…

JESUS Himself….ESCAPED from men who wanted to KILL him on the spot.

God Himself ….Established an ESCAPE Plan FOR manKind, in the ancient days of Gods INTENT to destroy manKinds Habitat.
* EIGHT…(out of millions) accepted Gods Offering….and PREPARED according to Gods Order and Way.

God Himself….Established an ESCAPE Plan FOR manKind, for the future days of Gods INTENT to destroy manKinds Habitat AGAIN.
* FEW….(out of billions) have accepted Gods Offering….and PREPARED according to Gods Order and Way.

* FEW … (out of billions) are continuing to accept Gods Offering….and ARE BeCOMING MADE PREPARED according to Gods Order and Way.

* MANY …. (Out of billions) are flat out Rejecting, Ignoring, and Promoting Rejection to accept Gods Offering….and ARE already ‘prepared” for DOOM, and forever separation from God.

* A SIMILITUDE and DIFFERENCE “DURING” the Last time of Earths Destruction….IS:
* Similitude…the EIGHT…sanctified…(which is they gathered together and SET APART from the rest of the worlds Inhabitants. )…
Gen 7:
[1] And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

SIMILITUDE - The righteous prepared, sanctified (set apart), for SEVEN Years WHILE the earth is being destroyed.

DIFFERENCE -
* Number of People upon the face of the Earth.
* Number of Gods People (ISRAEL) having had been MADE BLINDED, for the Sake of the Gentiles and Gods Glory.
* Number of PEOPLE during the first two “sets” of Judgements willingly Believing and Giving their Bodily life unto Physical Death confirming their testimony of Belief….
* THEY Becoming Bodily dead, (Ending their subjection to the Tribulations and Wrath sent down from Heaven…and THEN soul saved, unto the Glory of God….and THEIR saved souls escorted to Heaven, to WAIT in peace for Judgement Day

Pre -Trib Rising UP…Exclusively called the RAPTURE….Applies exclusively to THOSE “IN” Christ…BEFORE the “unknown” day…God sends down Tribulations and Wrath upon the Whole World.

Men who become Soul SAVED during the first TWO SETS of Judgements …. Are dead bodys remaining on earth, and saved souls rising up to heaven, to be reunited with their risen glorified bodys….during the FIRST Resurrection.

AFTER Christ Jesus’ 1,000 year reign…(WITH His Church and His FAITHFUL Angels)…
Presence ON Earth during the FIRST Resurrection.

To arrive at the WHOLE TRUTH requires consideration OF the WHOLE TRUTH..

To arrive at the UNDERSTANDING of Gods TRUTH….requires “that” understanding be GIVEN a man FROM the Lord God Himself.
(Which BTW is a gift reserved FOR those already soul saved and spirit quickened.)

And FYI…while many men and even satan himself knows the Scripture word by word…
Many men and satan himself are NOT gifted with Gods Understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[covenantee]

No, that's not what the genitive case means. It describes the nature of something, not it's location. There other ways the Greek language uses to locate something.

You clearly don't understand the genitive case. To you it means what you want it to mean, specifically whatever it takes to align with your preconceived ideas. That's just not how any language works, let alone Greek which is arguably the most precise language in all history.

Let's debunk your "genitive" bunk.

From Hebrews 11:16 Greek:

2032 [e]
epouraniou
ἐπουρανίου .
a heavenly [one]
Adj-GFS

Click 2032 above. What do you see?

Yeah. It's the definition of the "heavenly" genitive.

If you're not completely blind, you can see that a verse using that genitive can fall into one of two possible main categories:

1. existing in heaven:
or
2. of heavenly origin and nature:

Now look real close and find "Hebrews 11:16". Which category is it in?

Hint: It's not in category 2, your "nature" category.

It's in category 1, "existing in heaven".

Thus, located in heaven.


Agreed?

You're welcome.

 

[Rich R]

Let's debunk your "genitive" bunk.

From Hebrews 11:16 Greek:

2032 [e]
epouraniou
ἐπουρανίου .
a heavenly [one]
Adj-GFS

Click 2032 above. What do you see?

Yeah. It's the definition of the "heavenly" genitive.

If you're not completely blind, you can see that a verse using that genitive can fall into one of two possible main categories:

1. existing in heaven:
or
2. of heavenly origin and nature:

Now look real close and find "Hebrews 11:16". Which category is it in?

Hint: It's not in category 2, your "nature" category.

If that were the only verse on the matter, you might have something. However, there are hundreds of verses that talk about land. In any case, here's a more comprehensive guide on the genitive.

It's in category 1, "existing in heaven".

Thus, located in heaven.

Why not the second? Why must it be in the first? Just because you think so? You must have some reason.

Agreed?

No

You're welcome.

That means a lot to me.

 

[covenantee]

If that were the only verse on the matter, you might have something. However, there are hundreds of verses that talk about land.

Hebrews 11:16 is about the heavenly genitive, not land.

There are more category 1 heavenly genitives than category 2.

Why not the second? Why must it be in the first? Just because you think so? You must have some reason.

Because Thayer/Strong put it there, and I recognize and respect their erudition and competence.

 

[Rich R]

Hebrews 11:16 is about the heavenly genitive, not land.

There are more category 1 heavenly genitives than category 2.

Because you don't understand the difference between category 1 and category 2.

Because Thayer/Strong put it there, and I recognize and respect their erudition and competence.

If you are basing it on what you sent me, you may want to reconsider your conclusion.

From Hebrews 11:16 Greek:

2032 [e]
epouraniou
ἐπουρανίου .
a heavenly [one]
Adj-GFS

That doesn't actually say it's in heaven. It says it's an adjective. Besides, it's never good to base a doctrine on just one verse. It's best to consider several things. In this case, we can look at context, near and remote. By doing that, we can discover at least 150 verses that say the kingdom will be on the earth. Now since, as Rev 21 say, it will come down from heaven, wouldn't it seem that Hebrews is describing the nature of the kingdom instead of the location? Once it comes down from heaven, it won't be in heaven.

Sure, it'll be heavenly but in the sense that it will be supremely wonderful. At least that way we don't have to spirituallze all 150+ verses that say the kingdom will be on actual land, on the earth.

I just had some ice cream and it was heavenly. I ate it at a Baskin Robins here on planet earth. Still the ice cream was absolutely heavenly.

 

[covenantee]

That doesn't actually say it's in heaven.

"1. existing in heaven:"

But that does.

 

[Rich R]

"1. existing in heaven:"

That's not in Thayer/Strong. It's just how you interpret it, which is no guarantee for truth

But that does.

What about the 150+ plus verses that talk about land with friendly lines and snakes, rivers and blooms in the desert, vineyards and gardens, etc?

 

[covenantee]

That's not in Thayer/Strong.

It's in Thayer/Strong. You deny it because it exposes your error, as I've explained previously.

What about the 150+ plus verses that talk about land with friendly lines and snakes, rivers and blooms in the desert, vineyards and gardens, etc?

Do those verses talk about the "heavenly" genitive?

 

[rwb]

It's in Thayer/Strong. You deny it because it exposes your error, as I've explained previously.

Do those verses talk about the "heavenly" genitive?

Kind of reminds me of the old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"!

 

[WPM]

That's not in Thayer/Strong. It's just how you interpret it, which is no guarantee for truth

What about the 150+ plus verses that talk about land with friendly lines and snakes, rivers and blooms in the desert, vineyards and gardens, etc?

That was the OT. That is gone. That has been superseded. That is gone forever. Can you show us one verse in the New Testament?

 

[Rich R]

That was the OT. That is gone. That has been superseded. That is gone forever. Can you show us one verse in the New Testament?

Which New Testament are you talking about?

 

[covenantee]

Which New Testament are you talking about?

This one.

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The one believed, preached, and taught by the historical orthodox true Christian Church for 17 centuries.