Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.
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Rich R
Well-Known Member
Where do thing a 1st century Jew's mind would have gone at the mention of a New Testament in Hebrews? Clearly it would not have gone to what the orthodox Church said about it. It'd seem to me it would have gone back to Jeremiah 31:31. Of course, being well versed in Jeremiah as well as the other prophets, they would have realized that nothing said in those prophets had come to pass. They could see that the lions and asps were as deadly as ever. They knew what the desert was like and that there were no rivers or gardens. They were not unaware to the depravity of man that was going as strong as ever, which depravity they understood the prophets to say would be gone forever. They were far from planting vineyards and enjoying the fruits thereof. They were equally aware that they had no land to call their own. All of those things and more is what would have gone through their mind, leading them to the conclusion that this New Covenant was yet future.
I would trust their view over the orthodox church, especially a church that was decidedly against the Jews, who said they were damned and the church was now the recipient of a so-called "spiritual" land. But everybody has a right to choose their source of truth.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Where do you think a 1st century Jew's mind would have gone at the affirmation of the New Testament in Hebrews 9:15-17?
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Of course! The one and only that was ushered in at the cross. When Jesus instituted the Lord’s supper in Matthew 26:28, which represented His shed blood for the remission of our sins, He declared: “For this is my blood of the new testament [diathēkē], which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Jesus was here speaking here about His death! The Greek word here “testament” is diathēkē meaning covenant or testament. The shedding of His blood, which expressly secured “the remission of sins” for His elect, constituted “the new covenant.”
1 Corinthians 11:24-26: “And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament [diathēkē or covenant] in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.”
Believers are asked to remember the Lord's death – which is “the new testament [diathēkē or covenant] in [His] blood” – until He returns. “The new covenant” is here identified with “the Lord's death.” There is no way around it.
This is an ongoing demand.
The vicarious death of Christ, and the shedding of His blood, saw the complete fulfilment of the old covenant arrangement and the instigation of new covenant. Nothing else! Calvary secured it all! Jesus cried out “It is finished” in John 19:30. This is taken from the lone Greek word tetélestai. This means completed, executed, concluded, discharged (as in a debt). It also means paid in full or accomplished.
What was paid in full or accomplished? The penalty and punishment for your sin. It has been wonderfully and eternally paid for!
Some required reading by the Messianic Jews for Jesus.
They understand the New Covenant.
They recognize and celebrate the extant reality of the New Covenant.
And they refute and repudiate dispensational doubt and denial of the New Covenant.
Convincingly and cogently.
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Rich R
Well-Known Member
Who is the "they?"
Jer 31:31,
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Nothing there about the church. There is not one verse anywhere that says God made a covenant with the church. Not one.Speaking of dispensations, how do you handle:
1Cor 9:17,
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.
Eph 1:10, That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Col 1:25, Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
I really don't want to get into it with you about dispensations. I've just always been curious how non-dispensationalist deal with those verses.This does not in anyway teach the Dispensatanist 7 dispensations. Thankfully, this unbiblical nonsense is all but dying globally today. It is only held by a few older ignorant blinkered devotees.
The prophecy that speaks of the Messiah to come WAS directed to the church in the wilderness that was led by Moses, and fulfilled through the first advent of Christ.
Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Acts 3:18-24 (KJV) But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
You said, "They understand the New Covenant."
I was wondering who the "They" was in the sentence, "They understand the New Covenant."
That was beyond your comprehension?
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I can see you have an idea on what a church is. You may want to look at the Greek word for "church" which is "ekklesia." It simply means an assembly of people with a common goal. You should see it used in Acts 19:32 describing an angry mob. It's also used in verses 39 & 41 of that same chapter. Interestingly enough, those are the times it translated correctly as "assembly." The other 109 times it's used KJV translates it as "church" which really has caused some confusion to the modern Western Christian.
I'm not sure why I bother telling you this. I have little doubt but that, instead of a cogent reply, I'll just get something like I am a heretic, or I have trouble comprehending things, blah, blah. Quite boring really.
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Some required reading by the Messianic Jews for Jesus.
They understand the New Covenant.
Who do you think "they" are?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You're missing that Hebrews 11:8-16 says that Abraham was in the promised land and considered it "a strange country" and he later desired "a better country, that is an heavenly" instead. Why are you acting as if the inferior "strange country", is the one he will inherit when it says Abraham, Isaac and Jacob desired "a better country" than the "strange country" that you think they will inherit? Do you somehow know better than them what they should have desired and looked forward to? Why are your expectations lower than the expectations that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob themselves had in regards to their inheritance?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What about the fact that God can keep things hidden in the OT and then reveal those hidden things in the NT? You know, such as the fact that Gentile believers are fellowheirs of the promises He made to Abraham and his seed, which is Jesus Christ and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:16,29)? Why can't you accept that the inheritance God promised to Abraham expanded beyond just the promised land that Abraham called "a strange country" while desiring "a better country, that is an heavenly"?
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Abraham and his seed were promised to be "the heir of the world", not just a piece of land. Why can't you just accept this instead of not allowing the NT to interpret the OT for you?
It appears to me Rich that it is yourself that has no clue as to what church is. Even after showing us how church is defined, you still don't understand! Just because a confused angry mob is assembled together does not negate the FACT the Church existed during the days of Moses when he led the full assembly/congregation/popular meeting/Jewish synagogue/or Christian community of members on earth/or saints in heaven or both. How the word "ekklēsía" is defined in Scripture is only confusing for those with an unbiblical preconceived doctrine to promote and defend. There seems to be some hope for you! At least you acknowledge others might think because of your unbiblical doctrines that you have trouble comprehending things!
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I see now. Well if the Messianic Jews for Jesus say it, it has to be true? Where do the scriptures fit in?
The beginning of their discourse cites:
"Reference: Jeremiah 31:31–34
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 7:22, 8:6–13, 9:15, 10:14-18, 12:24"
Obviously they affirm that those Scriptures fit in.
If you don't believe that those Scriptures fit in, you should contact Jews for Jesus directly. I've no doubt that they would be eager to answer your questions.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
The only one is the one made with Israel in Jeremiah 31:31. All the times a New Testament is mentioned in the gospels and Paul's letters refer back to that one. Setting aside tradition, there is nowhere in the Bible that says God made a covenant with Christians.
Of course we spiritualize Israel, making them into Christians, then anybody can say whatever they want about God's plan. I suppose there could be as many covenants as one could imagine.
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