The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

[WPM]

Already been down this road several times. Always excuses. Never any accountability.

Your doctrine is bankrupt. Why not admit it? You have zero biblical evidence to bring to the table. All Pretribs have is silliness and avoidance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Already been down this road several times. Always excuses. Never any accountability.

You've never explained why he would supposedly be deceptive about that verse when there's no reason to be. Luke 21:33-36 clearly supports Amil because it has His wrath coming down in one day (the day He returns) and not over the course of a year as you falsely believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly. They are incapable of rebutting anything we write. Their posts are bereft of substance. They lack Scripture and they lack exegesis.

They are describing themselves In their charges. They are so angry and frustrated - thus all the ad hominem. That is all they have. It is projection every time.

If only they would just humble themselves and reconsider what they believe after it is pointed out how weak their arguments are and how they are unable to exegete scripture and provide coherent arguments even after repeatedly being asked to do so. Instead, they just get frustrated that they can't back up what they want to believe with scripture and they lash out in frustration.

 

[Keraz]

Hello @Keraz,

The 1,000 year reign is the reign of the Overcomers with Christ (Rev.20:6; 6:9, 12:11) as a reward for faithfulness: but His reign continues after that period ends surely.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The Millennium reign of King Jesus on earth, will end when He hands the Kingdom back to God. 1 Corinthians 15:24

Then comes Eternity, with a Spiritual new heaven and earth. Revelation 21:1-7
Those who believe that happens at the glorious Return are mistaken, because Gods Promise to Jesus must be fulfilled. Psalms 2:8, Micah 5:2-5a

When does this happen?

Can't help yourself, can you.
The belief that we are in the Millennium and Jesus is ruling the world now, is simply illogical and evidently wrong. The AMill belief, is a direct contradiction of scripture. Making plain Words, like a thousand years, to be 'highly symbolic', is wrong, unjustified and constitutes a taking away and adding to the Book of Revelation.

 

[WPM]

The Millennium reign of King Jesus on earth, will end when He hands the Kingdom back to God. 1 Corinthians 15:24

Then comes Eternity, with a Spiritual new heaven and earth. Revelation 21:1-7
Those who believe that happens at the glorious Return are mistaken, because Gods Promise to Jesus must be fulfilled. Psalms 2:8, Micah 5:2-5a

Can't help yourself, can you.
The belief that we are in the Millennium and Jesus is ruling the world now, is simply illogical and evidently wrong. The AMill belief, is a direct contradiction of scripture. Making plain Words, like a thousand years, to be 'highly symbolic', is wrong, unjustified and constitutes a taking away and adding to the Book of Revelation.

Does antichrist only reign for 60 minutes in Revelation?

 

[Keraz]

Does antichrist only reign for 60 minutes in Revelation?

What Bible version are you using?

Revelation 20:3.....after that he must be let loose for a little while. Revised English Bible
.....loosed for a little season. KJV
.....set free for a short time. NIV
.....released for a little while. ESV
Anyway, there is no law stopping the scriptures using allegory here and literal Words elsewhere.

 

[WPM]

What Bible version are you using?

Revelation 20:3.....after that he must be let loose for a little while. Revised English Bible
.....loosed for a little season. KJV
.....set free for a short time. NIV
.....released for a little while. ESV
Anyway, there is no law stopping the scriptures using allegory here and literal Words elsewhere.

If you are adamant in interpreting a thousand years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

 

[TribulationSigns]

how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

Of course not. But let's see what hyper-literalist, Keraz, say about this:

Rev 8:1
(1) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Will Keraz say it will be about 30 minutes of silence in heaven? Since when do we hear a noise in heaven anyway?

 

[WPM]

Of course not. But let's see what hyper-literalist, Keraz, say about this:

Rev 8:1
(1) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Will Keraz say it will be about 30 minutes of silence in heaven? Since when do we hear a noise in heaven anyway?

Exactly bro.

 

[Rich R]

I for one am very grateful to WPM for setting the record straight. It was badly needed because some people having an unbiblical doctrine to defend, use the ECF in a dishonorable way.

I don't think I used the EFC in any way, let alone dishonorably

No, I won't go back over the discussions we've had in this thread to show you where you have forced contradictions. It would be a waste of my time because you've already proven through your replies in this thread that contradictions aren't a problem for you, even though you say there can be no contradictions in the Word of God. That's the difference between Premillennialists like yourself, and Amillennialism. Amil doctrine does not force contradictions, rather it proves how there can be none. OTOH when Premillennialists are shown their contradictions, they ignore them and change the subject, or the favored ploy accuse and attack.

God clearly promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob a land that could be seen with their eyes, where there would fruit tree, houses, jobs, animals, etc. How does saying those promises were fulfilled by the church in a heavenly kingdom and that there is no future inheritance for Israel not contradict what God told Israel about the kingdom? That is a glaring contradiction.

On the other hand, to say that Jesus is currently reigning in heaven over the church now and that he will reign over Israel on the earth in the future does not fit the definition of a contradiction.

 

[WPM]

The Millennium reign of King Jesus on earth, will end when He hands the Kingdom back to God. 1 Corinthians 15:24

Then comes Eternity, with a Spiritual new heaven and earth. Revelation 21:1-7
Those who believe that happens at the glorious Return are mistaken, because Gods Promise to Jesus must be fulfilled. Psalms 2:8, Micah 5:2-5a

Can't help yourself, can you.
The belief that we are in the Millennium and Jesus is ruling the world now, is simply illogical and evidently wrong. The AMill belief, is a direct contradiction of scripture. Making plain Words, like a thousand years, to be 'highly symbolic', is wrong, unjustified and constitutes a taking away and adding to the Book of Revelation.

I wasn't talking to you. Why are you so paranoid?

 

[IndianaRob]

If you are adamant in interpreting a thousand years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

Why isn’t that hour the most famous hour in the Bible?

Jhn 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Which is this hour.

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I’m not saying for sure that it is but that hour was the same hour Mystery Babylon was judged.

 

[WPM]

I don't think I used the EFC in any way, let alone dishonorably

God clearly promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob a land that could be seen with their eyes, where there would fruit tree, houses, jobs, animals, etc. How does saying those promises were fulfilled by the church in a heavenly kingdom and that there is no future inheritance for Israel not contradict what God told Israel about the kingdom? That is a glaring contradiction.

On the other hand, to say that Jesus is currently reigning in heaven over the church now and that he will reign over Israel on the earth in the future does not fit the definition of a contradiction.

By the way, we have moved into the new covenant. There is absolutely no land promises attached to that. Show me in the New Testament where there are any land promises to israel.

 

[Rich R]

By the way, we have moved into the new covenant. There is absolutely no land promises attached to that. Show me in the New Testament where there are any land promises to israel.

You are assuming we are living in the New Covenant that was promised in Isaiah 31:31. If you'd read the whole of Jeremiah 31 (and other prophets talking about the same thing) it ought to be glaringly obvious that none of that has come to pass, thus the New Covenant is future.

There is nowhere to be found in the scriptures that says anything about God making a covenant with the church. The few mentions of a New Covenant that appear in the Gospel and Paul's letters all refer back to Jeremiah 31:31.

It's tradition that we are under a New Covenant. It doesn't matter if the tradition is 2,000 years old. So are the scriptures.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Now that someone brings up the verse:

Rev 8:1
(1) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

What does the half an hour refers to? It's symbolic of the first half of the judgment of God upon His people who spiritually become as Babylon, which judgment is spoken of as coming in "one hour." There is silence first, and then God pours out His judgment upon them. Again, much like with Old Testament Israel where there was 400 (signifying testing) years of silence before the first coming of Christ and His judgment upon them as a representative of God's Kingdom.

Rev 18:8-10
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
(9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

This hour of Judgment of the New Testament congregation of Israel is broken down between the witnesses being killed and their call by God to come out of Babylon. Thus the half an hour represents the first half of that hour of trial. We are either faithful and kept from succumbing to it, or refuse to receive truth and remain to be judged of God over that hour period of time. We will either be partaker with her in her sins, or come out of her that we won't be.

Revelation 3:10

• "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Revelation 14:7-8

• "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
• And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

Revelation 18:4-5

• "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
• For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities."

Revelation 18:10

• "Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."

This one hour where the Lord judges that unfaithful city (the church) compasses the first half hour where the Sealed Elect are within her, and the last half hour where they have come out and she is left desolate until Christ returns.

Hope that helps.

 

[IndianaRob]

Now that someone brings up the verse:

Rev 8:1
(1) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

So exactly what is the space of half an hour? What hour is this?

I believe that silence in heaven of Revelation Chapter 8 represents the silence that shall be on earth at this time. As for example when Christ told Peter (and the church in general), that whatsoever he bound on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatsoever he looses on earth shall have been loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:18). Your "translation" may say shall be, but the actual wording of scripture is "having been" or "shall have been." It illustrates what was already ordained in heaven is worked out on earth through His church. Likewise when Revelation 8 says that at the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven half an hour, it illustrates there was ordained silence on earth. In other words, at this time there will be no testimony of the Word of God. If the Two Witnesses are killed (silenced) so that they no longer preach the gospel of peace, God is not talking at this time. This is what the silence in heaven referred to. The silence of the Kingdom of heaven on earth before God pours out this judgment. It is a time of a great famine in the earth, but not of literal bread and water.

Amos 8:9-10

• "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
• And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day."

Just as in the end of Old Testament Israel, there shall be this same famine in the New Testament congregation, a silence where the Word of God will not be heard in the churches. I believe that this prophecy runs parallel to God's declaration that the saints are killed (Revelation chapter 11) where their testimony (the Word of God) is finished or no longer heard! Selah! Their testimony or witness being finished is equivalent to their silence, as they lie spiritually as 'dead' in the street of the holy city. Killed by those who hated their testimony which was as torment to them. That is a prelude to God's final judgment.

Revelation 8:1

• "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

Whatsoever we shall bind on earth shall "have been" bound in heaven: and whatsoever we shall loose on earth shall "have been" loosed in heaven. Often in Revelation, heaven is the representation of the Kingdom of God going forth on earth, as seen in the portraits of Revelation chapter 12.

I believe that this is the revelation of the judgment of God, which was written in the book, being revealed to the elect by the Lamb of God. Incorporated under this seventh seal is the final trumpet judgments, which the children of God (the watchmen) had been warning against. The number seven signifies the completeness or totality. The Lord has built His church and at this time it is complete, thus the long prophesied judgment can commence.

Revelation 7:3

• " Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

When all God's people are sealed (Ephesians 4:30) or saved that are going to be saved, it is then that God will bring His judgment upon the earth. But not until. Where God has set His church as a watchmen to speak and not remain silent (Isaiah 62:6-8), at this time there is silence in the external covenanted Kingdom of heaven on earth. Judgment 'having been' bound in heaven, was bound in earth, but here the corporate church, which is spiritually the holy city Jerusalem, is about to fall. The silence is a synonym for the inability of the people to preach the Word of God 'because' God has removed His Spirit from them (2nd Thessalonians 2:7). Because God who had bound Satan, is He who will also loose Satan because of their sins. There will be no Word of truth going forth in the Kingdom of God on earth (the corporate churches) because of their unfaithfulness. This is a symbolism 'signifying' a time of trouble when the church becoming spiritually as Babylon, will fal, as Babylon did.

So, Revelation 8:1 is the prelude to the judgment upon the Church. Silence in heaven signifies that there is an absence of the true Word of God being preached in the congregations, an apostasy, a famine of hearing the Word of God as judgment is upon them. The word is "not heard" in the churches (the earthly representation of the kingdom of heaven) and that ushers in these trumpets incorporated under that seventh seal of the book. Without their knowledge, the Spirit of truth is passed away from them, and the Word is become ineffective as they have adulterated it. See the like-symbols God used in Jeremiah when speaking of his people forsaking Him.

Jeremiah 8:13-15

• "I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.
• Why do we sit still? assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD.
• We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble!"

They say Peace, peace, but there is no peace, there is no faithful Word, there is no reconciliation with God in salvation, though they looked for it (Revelation 9:3-6) There came trouble and adversity with God as they were and are deceived. Likewise, the Church is still saying "Peace, Peace when in reality there is trouble." God will remove Himself from the unfaithful Church that there is silence within it's walls. While the Elect will "see" the true signs by this Revelation, having been sealed by the Spirit of truth beforehand (Revelation 7), there is only lying signs and empty visions for those who have the spirit that refuses to receive truth. It is a time of great mourning, where the prophets in God's house are false and are teaching abominations in the name of Christ. The sinful man ruling God's house as if he were God.

Therefore, God has made the prophets silent, where they have no vision or revelation from the Lord. In bringing judgment upon this great city Jerusalem which once was used of God to restrain iniquity by His Spirit, He has removed His Spirit from the midst of it. Without the Spirit of God there is no more vision or word from God. It was because of their lawlessness and abominations that this judgment came upon His people. This is the silence in the congregation of God, a mirror image of God's silence (not speaking) to them in the churches.

There are many different symbols portraying this, such as, "Sacrifice and offering ceasing", "the two witnesses being killed," "the daily (or continual) taken away," or that "the saints have been overcome." God in this silence will turn their feasts or festivals into mourning, and all their songs into lamentations. What is bound in heaven, is bound in earth. And as Babylon fell, so the Church will fall. All of these are part of the silence for about half an hour BEFORE the hour of full judgment (wrath of God) upon His unfaithful congregation will take place. This is when we, Elect, need to flee from her to avoid partaking in her plagues.

Enough for now.

In case you didn’t know, Amos 8 was about the end Israel and the sun going down at noon was fulfilled here:

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In case you didn’t know, Amos 8 was about the end Israel and the sun going down at noon was fulfilled here:

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

Please read what I wrote carefully:

"Just as in the end of Israel, there shall be this same famine in the New Testament congregation, a silence where the Word of God will not be heard in the churches. I believe that this prophecy runs parallel to God's declaration that the saints are killed (Revelation chapter 11) where their testimony (the Word of God) is finished or no longer heard. Their testimony or witness being finished is equivalent to their silence, as they lie spiritually as 'dead' in the street of the holy city. Killed by those who hated their testimony which was as torment to them. That is a prelude to God's final judgment."​

​

The half an hour of Revelation 8 has NOTHING to do with National Israel in the first century. It applies to the New Testament congregation of Israel, the Church, prior to the Second Coming.

 

[IndianaRob]

Please read what I wrote carefully:

"Just as in the end of Israel, there shall be this same famine in the New Testament congregation, a silence where the Word of God will not be heard in the churches. I believe that this prophecy runs parallel to God's declaration that the saints are killed (Revelation chapter 11) where their testimony (the Word of God) is finished or no longer heard. Their testimony or witness being finished is equivalent to their silence, as they lie spiritually as 'dead' in the street of the holy city. Killed by those who hated their testimony which was as torment to them. That is a prelude to God's final judgment."​

​

The half an hour of Revelation 8 has NOTHING to do with National Israel in the first century. It applies to the New Testament congregation of Israel, the Church, prior to the Second Coming.

Sorry my bad.

 

[Keraz]

If you are adamant in interpreting a thousand years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

Rev 17:12.....the ten kings who have not yet begun to reign, but who; for a brief hour will share authority with the 'beast'. REBible
....one brief moment. NLT
Other versions do say: one hour. However, as per verse 14; they go to make war with the Lamb, so the 'hour' simply denotes a relatively short period of time. Maybe just a few months.

Why are you so paranoid?

My aim and object is to promote the Biblical truths. I oppose any false teachings.
Those who have to use words like 'hyper literal', are doing so to support a wrong theory.

 

[WPM]

Rev 17:12.....the ten kings who have not yet begun to reign, but who; for a brief hour will share authority with the 'beast'. REBible
....one brief moment. NLT
Other versions do say: one hour. However, as per verse 14; they go to make war with the Lamb, so the 'hour' simply denotes a relatively short period of time. Maybe just a few months.

My aim and object is to promote the Biblical truths. I oppose any false teachings.
Those who have to use words like 'hyper literal', are doing so to support a wrong theory.

Oh, really? How convenient. Lol. This is typical Premil double standards. There is absolutely no consistency in their hermeneutics. The goal posts are quickly moved when it suits. That is hypocrisy.

At least Amillennialist recognize the symbolic context of the Book of Revelation and the apocalyptic genre. They are consistent in their approach seeing the "thousand years" as a long period of time and the "one hour" as a short period of time.