Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

[IndianaRob]

There is something often overlooked when formulating doctrine. It's usually assumed that the things Jesus said in the Gospels have a direct connection and application to the Christian church. But is that really the case? Let the scriptures speak for themselves:

Matt 15:24,

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.​

​

Jesus was not sent "to" the church. Nothing he said was spoken "to" the church. He came for and spoke to Israel. In fact Jesus knew nothing about the church. When Jesus was here, the church was still a mystery (better translated as "secret") hidden with God. That secret remained hidden until it was revealed to Paul, which of course was some time after Jesus was here.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

​

Col 1:26-27,

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now (not before, when Jesus was here) is made manifest to his saints:​

​

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

The church has everything to do with the secret. That secret is that the church is composed of neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28), who have been made into one new creation (Gal 6:15) , one body (Eph 2:16, 4:4). All of that and more is precisely what the secret was all about. It is God's plan for the church. His plan for the Jews and the Gentiles are completely separate and different.

Now, does all of that mean I ignore the Gospels? No! It just means I put them in their proper place. There is not one word in the scriptures I ignore. I may not understand all of them, but I never ignore them. As I said, I keep them in their proper place. I don't mix up what God said to the Jews with the things He says to the church. Doing so causes no end of confusion and false doctrrine.

Sorry but I can’t agree with any of that.

 

[IndianaRob]

What's puzzling about this to me is that @WPM liked your post #255, yet I was under the impression he interpreted Mat 24:32 like I do, not like Preterists do. I was thinking he took it mean the end of this age was near and not something still involving the first century instead. I don't care if he liked your post, yet it doesn't make sense to if he is not interpreting Mat 24:32 in the same manner as you are. IOW, he would be contradicting his interpretation of Mat 24:32 by agreeing with your interpretation.

I am 100% not a preterist and I beleive preterism is just as wrong as futurism.

I believe that all has been fulfilled but I believe it was fulfilled at the cross, the resurrection and the ascension which is not what a preterist believes.

I don’t think WPM believes any of that so I don’t know why he likes it.

 

[Rich R]

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Those verses describe the legal terms, conditions, and characteristics, aka jurisprudence, of a Will and Testament.

Those in Christ are heirs of the promises of the New Will and Testament.

But not those who do not believe such, and demand to opt out.


If you read Hebrews 8:6-13, most of which is an essentially verbatim quote from Jeremiah 31, it is obvious that it has all come to pass.

It begins with:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

It ends with:
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Notice the tenses. They are exclusively past and present. Not one future tense to be seen.

That's complete fulfillment.

Again, I'll point out the problem of reading someone else's mail and applying it to themselves. Hebrews 1:1 is clear that it was meant for the Jews. Now remember, God, also speaking to the Jews, said He'd make a New Covenant with them in Jeremiah 31:31. So we're not dealing with the church here. We're dealing with Israel.

Where does it say in Hebrews 8 that the New Covenant has actually come to pass? With one minor caveat (v 13) which I'll address in a moment, It doesn't. It just says that Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant with Israel. Which covenant would that be? Well given that outside of Hebrews 8, the only other verse that talks about a New Covenant it Jeremiah. Draw your own conclusion, but it's pretty clear to me that Hebrews is referring back to Jeremiah 31:31. Now, even the most casual perusal of Jeremiah 31 ought to make it clear that it has in now wise come to pass.

OK, now for verse 13:

The English translation does not align with the original much older Greek texts. I suspect the translators had a preconceived idea and were hell bent on promulgating it. Admittedly, that is just speculation. Why they did it is beside the point anyway. But, setting possible motives, the fact is they did mistranslated the tenses of several verbs.

Heb 8:13,

In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.​

The words "hath made," "decayeth," and "waxeth" are all in the Greek present perfect tense. Essentially what that means is that none of them indicate a completed action in the past. Instead they indicate something that has begun and is continuing to happen. That is not at all the same as saying they were completed in the past. They are in fact saying the New Covenant (with Israel) is in the process of coming, but its not yet here. But look at the last phrase, "ready to vanish away." That doesn't say the Old is gone. It says it is still around, but that at some point it will be gone.

There is nothing in Hebrews that doesn't fit perfectly with Jeremiah 31 as well as many sections in Isaiah, Ezekiel, and the other prophets.

 

[rwb]

Sorry but I can’t agree with any of that.

I agree! That's because it's without doubt totally absurd!

 

[Rich R]

Sorry but I can’t agree with any of that.

No problem my friend. There are many who don't agree with me. I suspect the same holds for you. We're still members of the one body of Christ. All differences will be set aside when Jesus comes back. I have no doubt we'll all find we were wrong about one thing or another. After all, we all see through a dark glass in this life. But when Jesus makes his next appearance, we'll all see ourselves as God sees us now. Something to look forward to!

 

[IndianaRob]

I agree! That's because it's without doubt totally absurd!

So what we do is treat him with respect and continue sharing our views so that maybe one of us will say something that will cause him to question what he believes.

 

[IndianaRob]

No problem my friend. There are many who don't agree with me. I suspect the same holds for you. We're still members of the one body of Christ. All differences will be set aside when Jesus comes back. I have no doubt we'll all find we were wrong about one thing or another. After all, we all see through a dark glass in this life. But when Jesus makes his next appearance, we'll all see ourselves as God sees us now. Something to look forward to!

Amen brother!

 

[rwb]

Again, I'll point out the problem of reading someone else's mail and applying it to themselves. Hebrews 1:1 is clear that it was meant for the Jews. Now remember, God, also speaking to the Jews, said He'd make a New Covenant with them in Jeremiah 31:31. So we're not dealing with the church here. We're dealing with Israel.

Israel of Old, those wandering in the wilderness are the church of Old, that was led by Moses.

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1577. ἐκκλησία ekklesia (ekklēsía)
Search for G1577 in KJVSL; in KJV.
ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah
from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.
feminine noun

 

[covenantee]

We're dealing with Israel.

True.

And Israel from its birth and throughout its history was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

God was not and is not a racist.

Nor can He be contorted into one.

 

[rwb]

So what we do is treat him with respect and continue sharing our views so that maybe one of us will say something that will cause him to question what he believes.

Yes, I agree!

 

[TribulationSigns]

It must either be an ancient battle, or else it is a modern symbolic battle. What it definitely isn’t is a literal modern battle as most Premils argue.

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).

In short, I believe this battle has been fulfilled.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree.

This is "THE" battle of Scripture of which God spoke of through His ancient prophets:

Eze 38:17
(17) Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

This battle is a battle spoken of and prophesied of throughout the Holy Scriptures and not merely in these two chapters of Ezekiel. Any believer that keeps an open mind and has shed the “traditions of men” in favor of allowing the Holy Spirit to speak from Scripture, should conclude - once he or she has diligently studied these two chapters and everything that branches out from them - that this is indeed the Battle of Armageddon. This means we need to examine with the New Testament books and the book of Revelation. For example:

Rev 20:7-8
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 11:7-8
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

As I have stated many times on other thread, Satan is to be loosed at the end of the Church Age when God's True Church (Two Witnesses) has finished their testimony (Revelation 11:7) for the purpose of sealing (salvation) all of God's Elect (Revelation 7:1-4). This proves that the battle of Gog and Magog will take place AFTER the testimony of Two Witnesses. Period! The purpose of loosening of Satan is to silence the Truthful witnessing of God's Word in God's congregations all over the world, like the Red Horse of Revelation 6 which its purpose is to remove peace (salvation) from the Earth (that's a subject to be discussed later). Anyway, it is when God allows Satan to trample the True Gospel of Salvation as a judgment upon the apostate and unbelieving church. So the true enemy of Two Witnesses is actually the army of Gog and Magog! They are the ones who will wage spiritual war against Two Witnesses, and to overcome them. So we need to find out exactly who are the army of Gog and Magog? Of course, it is not Russia and Iran. It is not even the "ancient" enemy of Israel in the Old Testament. Let's find out who the army of Gog and Magog.

We need to remember that our warfare is NOT after the flesh (or any countries or empires), as in physical wars with arrows, guns, missile, horses, etc. No, the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal, 2nd Corinthians 10:4. Rather, we, True Christians, are to put on the complete or whole armor of God:

Eph 6:11-17
(11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
(12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
(15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
(16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
(17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Armour, breastplate, shield, helmet, sword...

They are the true weapons that God has given to every true believer and worshipper in Jesus Christ! Our weapons are totally and unequivocally SPIRITUAL in nature!. So are Satan's army! Consider wisely:
Eze 38:4-6
(4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
(5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
(6) Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

Armour, bucklers, shields, swords and helmet!

Satan's army of Gog and Magog will MIMIC Christ and Christ's True Church to such a convincing degree that "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" Matthew 24:24. They are the FALSE PROPHETS AND CHRISTS that pretends to have the same weapons that God gave to His True Witnesses. The buckles, shields, and swords are the SPIRITUAL WEAPONS that Satan's army possesses as well, but they are COUNTERFIET in TRUTH, yet they are posing as the True Gospel of Christ! Therefore Gog and Magog (those from among the nations of the world) are IMPOSTERS of Christ (Transformed into ministers of righteousness) and their weapons are FALSE weapons that are designed to spiritually deceive the countless souls in the court which is OUTSIDE the temple and its worshippers, Revelation 11:1-2. They are now all over the congregations of God as a judgment to test the faithfulness of the church (aka Babylon the Great).

Enough for now. Think about it.

 

[WPM]

Sorry, I respectfully disagree.

This is "THE" battle of Scripture of which God spoke of through His ancient prophets:

Eze 38:17
(17) Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

This battle is a battle spoken of and prophesied of throughout the Holy Scriptures and not merely in these two chapters of Ezekiel. Any believer that keeps an open mind and has shed the “traditions of men” in favor of allowing the Holy Spirit to speak from Scripture, should conclude - once he or she has diligently studied these two chapters and everything that branches out from them - that this is indeed the Battle of Armageddon. This means we need to examine with the New Testament books and the book of Revelation. For example:

Rev 20:7-8
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 11:7-8
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

As I have stated many times on other thread, Satan is to be loosed at the end of the Church Age when God's True Church (Two Witnesses) has finished their testimony (Revelation 11:7) for the purpose of sealing (salvation) all of God's Elect (Revelation 7:1-4). This proves that the battle of Gog and Magog will take place AFTER the testimony of Two Witnesses. Period! The purpose of loosening of Satan is to silence the Truthful witnessing of God's Word in God's congregations all over the world, like the Red Horse of Revelation 6 which its purpose is to remove peace (salvation) from the Earth (that's a subject to be discussed later). Anyway, it is when God allows Satan to trample the True Gospel of Salvation as a judgment upon the apostate and unbelieving church. So the true enemy of Two Witnesses is actually the army of Gog and Magog! They are the ones who will wage spiritual war against Two Witnesses, and to overcome them. So we need to find out exactly who are the army of Gog and Magog? Of course, it is not Russia and Iran. It is not even the "ancient" enemy of Israel in the Old Testament. Let's find out who the army of Gog and Magog.

We need to remember that our warfare is NOT after the flesh (or any countries or empires), as in physical wars with arrows, guns, missile, horses, etc. No, the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal, 2nd Corinthians 10:4. Rather, we, True Christians, are to put on the complete or whole armor of God:

Eph 6:11-17
(11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
(12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
(15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
(16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
(17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Armour, breastplate, shield, helmet, sword...

They are the true weapons that God has given to every true believer and worshipper in Jesus Christ! Our weapons are totally and unequivocally SPIRITUAL in nature!. So are Satan's army! Consider wisely:
Eze 38:4-6
(4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
(5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
(6) Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

Armour, bucklers, shields, swords and helmet!

Satan's army of Gog and Magog will MIMIC Christ and Christ's True Church to such a convincing degree that "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" Matthew 24:24. They are the FALSE PROPHETS AND CHRISTS that pretends to have the same weapons that God gave to His True Witnesses. The buckles, shields, and swords are the SPIRITUAL WEAPONS that Satan's army possesses as well, but they are COUNTERFIET in TRUTH, yet they are posing as the True Gospel of Christ! Therefore Gog and Magog (those from among the nations of the world) are IMPOSTERS of Christ (Transformed into ministers of righteousness) and their weapons are FALSE weapons that are designed to spiritually deceive the countless souls in the court which is OUTSIDE the temple and its worshippers, Revelation 11:1-2. They are now all over the congregations of God as a judgment to test the faithfulness of the church (aka Babylon the Great).

Enough for now. Think about it.

Did you read what I wrote in the first line?

 

[Rich R]

How do you reconcile saving all Israel (ethnic Jews) with Romans 9 where Paul clearly says otherwise (only the remnant shall be saved)! Because only Israel of faith shall be saved. Salvation is not about ethnicity, all Israel is saved, according to Paul, when the fullness of Gentiles are grafted into the same good olive tree of faith with them. How can "all Israel" be ethnic Jews since Gentiles complete Israel?

Now there's a good question. I don't know for sure about that. I do know that Rom 11:26 says all of Israel will be saved. Somehow the two have to fit. Sure can't have contradictions in God's word.

I do see that Romans 9 is talking about events in the past (quoting Isaiah) whereas Romans 11 is talking about the future. That may have something to do with the question. I would need more study to come to a final conclusion though. I'd be interested in any insight you may have that may clear up the "appearant" contradiction between Romans 9 an 11.

 

[Rich R]

Israel of Old, those wandering in the wilderness are the church of Old, that was led by Moses.

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1577. ἐκκλησία ekklesia (ekklēsía)
Search for G1577 in KJVSL; in KJV.
ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah
from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.
feminine noun

You are right about the meaning of "church." I've been throwing around the word "church" for some time now. Perhaps I should have defined what a "church" actually is. It's really nothing more than a gathering of people for some specific purpose. In acts 19:32 a mob is called and "ekklesia."

When Israel met, it was an assembly of Jews. When Christians meet, it is an assembly of Christians. When protesters gather, it is an assembly of protesters.

In many ways, translating "ekklesia" as "church" is misleading. Many today think of a church as nothing more than a building. Not even close to what an ekklesia is!

Anyway, good point.

 

[IndianaRob]

Now there's a good question. I don't know for sure about that. I do know that Rom 11:26 says all of Israel will be saved. Somehow the two have to fit. Sure can't have contradictions in God's word.

I do see that Romans 9 is talking about events in the past (quoting Isaiah) whereas Romans 11 is talking about the future. That may have something to do with the question. I would need more study to come to a final conclusion though. I'd be interested in any insight you may have that may clear up the "appearant" contradiction between Romans 9 an 11.

Rich the reason Paul says that all Israel shall be saved is because there are two Israel’s in the Bible as seen in this verse.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel (spiritual Israel), which are of Israel (earthly Israel):

The first Israel in that verse is the Israel of God (those who love and serve God (spiritual Israel) no matter what race they are, Jew and Gentile) the second Israel is the literal flesh descendants of Israel.

So when Paul says “all Israel shall be saved” he’s saying that saved Jews (spiritual Israel) and saved Gentiles (also spiritual Israel) shall be saved.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Did you read what I wrote in the first line?

Yes, yet you believe it has been "fulfilled?" Which I may disagree. When did you think the battle of Gog and Magog fulfilled? When did Satan come out of bottomless pit, exactly?

Rev 20:7-8
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And who did Gog and Magog battle against after Satan was loosed?

Rev 20:9
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Obviously, the camp of the Saints and the Beloved City are NOT located in the Middle East, but the "breadth of the Earth" which means ALL OVER THE EARTH where the congregations of the Saints are! Selah.

 

[Rich R]

True.

And Israel from its birth and throughout its history was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

God was not and is not a racist.

Nor can He be contorted into one.

That, though very true, is a whole other discussion.

No, God is not a racist. Maybe He could be called a "believerist" () given that all He really ever wanted was for people to believe, to trust Him

What was the context of me saying, "We're dealing with Israel?

 

[Douggg]

Christ-rejecting Jews are blind to God's truth. If their eyes were open, they would be Christians.

Gog/Magog has not taken place yet. In the middle of the 7 years that follow, the Jews will turn to Jesus and the gospel of Salvation.

Nothing in the NT says that Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 has taken place either.

 

[Rich R]

Rich the reason Paul says that all Israel shall be saved is because there are two Israel’s in the Bible as seen in this verse.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel (spiritual Israel), which are of Israel (earthly Israel):

The first Israel in that verse is the Israel of God (those who love and serve God (spiritual Israel) no matter what race they are, Jew and Gentile) the second Israel is the literal flesh descendants of Israel.

So when Paul says “all Israel shall be saved” he’s saying that saved Jews (spiritual Israel) and saved Gentiles (also spiritual Israel) shall be saved.

I'm thinking it may be somewhat of a leap to add "spiritual" to the word "Israel." As far as I know, such a phrase is not anywhere in the scriptures.

Given that it would have very huge implications regarding doctrine, I'd think God would have somewhere used the phrase "spiritual Israel" if He wanted to tell us there was such a thing. I'd be hesitant to introduce such a profound doctrine changing concept where it really doesn't belong. I'd think it better to build one's doctrine based on what's actually in the scriptures. But that's just me.

 

[Rich R]

Are you really unaware that the Gospel of Jesus Christ; the message about Him preached on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) epitomizes the New Covenant in His blood?

Well, I'll repeat what I said before:

"Where do you see anything about a New Covenant anywhere in Acts?"​

Notice the question mark. If you have a good answer, I may well change my mind.

But as things stand now, the only place I see anything about a New Covenant is in Jeremiah 31:31 where a it is promised to Israel. I also see it in Hebrews 8 which I aver refers back to Jeremiah. Still don't see anywhere that God made a covenant with the Christian church. That of course would include Acts.