That NT ekklesia was alive and kicking after the cross. But it was empowered at Pentecost to fulfill the great commission.
Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.
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Exactly, no unbelieving Jew believes that Christ is the promised Messiah that was to come. Yet you look to them to help you understand New Covenant biblical truths???
Wrong! Some 'professing' Christians deny the New Covenant is not yet fulfilled by isolating the Old Covenant prophecies from how they are fulfilled in Christ according to the New Testament writers. It is the New that makes plain what is written of Old in shadows and signs.
As for the remainder of your reply, I have NOT a clue what you're talking about???
"Why then, assuming Ezekiel 38-39 was fulfilled before Christ was born, and that unbelieving Jews know that, would they then be trying to hide this fact? For what reason? Common sense says they are not trying to hide anything, they simply know that nothing involving their history in the past fits Ezekiel 38-39. So what if they are unbelieving Jews, they are still God's ppl unless some of you want to insist God lied to us in Ezekiel 38-39 when God clearly said they are His people."
Yes, it's clear how desperately dispensationalists try to prove what the prophets of Old have written without learning anything at all (it would seem) from the New Testament of fulfillment of what they prophesied concerning the Messiah who was to come.
Summer is nigh at some point every single year since the beginning of time. Therefore, not seeing how what He said there is meaning Amos 8 was being fulfilled before their eyes. When He said summer is nigh, what passage in the Gospels are you specifically meaning?
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Where do you see anything about a New Covenant anywhere in Acts?
As far as Matthew goes, Jesus just said it was the cup of the New Covenant. Which New Covenant? Well, there are very few verses that actually talk about a New Covenant. There are 4 to be precise and all of them are with the Jews. Jesus came for the Jews (Matt 15:24, et. al.)
Had the Jews accepted Jesus at his first appearance, the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31, and Matthew 26:26-27 would have come to pass. But the rejected him, so the New Covenant still remains unfulfilled. It's happen when Jesus comes back again.
I understand that for thousands of years orthodox doctrine says we are in the New Testament, making it very difficult to imagine anything other than that. However, the scriptures have also been around for thousands of years. They've always said that the New Covenant will be made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The scriptures themselves are silent regarding a any covenant God made or will make with the church. That's just what's in the book. We just have to decide between tradition and truth. Before deciding, consider something Jesus said to the Pharisees:
Mark 7:13,
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
A rather stark statement in my opinion.Amos gives the timing. It happens when many dead bodies are cast forth in silence and when the sun was darkened at noon.
Obviously it’s talking about the events that happened at the cross.
The parable of the fig tree.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Rich R
Well-Known Member
True. But in the end, they will be saved.
Rom 11:26,
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
The whole 11th chapter is well worth a careful study. Verse 25 of that chapter tells exactly when verse 26 will come to pass.Rom 11:25,
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
I don't think the fulness of the Gentiles occured at Pentecost, nor anytime since. It's still future. Could it be that the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31 will be fulfilled when Romans 11:25-26 comes to pass? Sure seems to fit like a hand in a glove to me.Are you really unaware that the Gospel of Jesus Christ; the message about Him preached on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) epitomizes the New Covenant in His blood?
It figures, the fact you are apparently a Preterist, and that you would be taking that to be involving the first century while some of the rest of us would be taking it to involve the end of this age, that Jesus was meaning that the end of this age was near, at the doors even. Therefore, I can't accept that that is involving Amos 8 being fulfilled.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Becausae it isn't. If you followed the prophecies of the OT you would know it is not. And also the order of events in REv. 19-22 would also inform you they are not the same.
Then you call God and the bible a lie! the earthly kingdom is written about in enormous passages in the OT same with Mattthew and REvelation.
From the bible! Rev. 12:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
You have to do a lot of allegorical reinterpretation to get this to fit with the fact Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven.
It is sad y90u do not read teh rest of Revelation 12 to see the rest of the the things that take place after Satan is kicked out of heaven. Cast out and fall are two different things.
YOu have Satan cast out before Jesus shed His blood to secure salvation.
Well you argue against premillennialism with out knowledge so I guess that makes us equal. I have studied several viewpoints of amillennialsim, chiefly Lorraine Boettners text
I’m just showing you what Amos 8 said I’m not telling you what to believe.
Futurist always throw out verses and change word meanings that don’t line up with their beliefs.
It must either be an ancient battle, or else it is a modern symbolic battle. What it definitely isn’t is a literal modern battle as most Premils argue.
The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).
In short, I believe this battle has been fulfilled.
He isn't even Amil. He is Postmil. No wonder you do not understand Amillennialism.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
There is something often overlooked when formulating doctrine. It's usually assumed that the things Jesus said in the Gospels have a direct connection and application to the Christian church. But is that really the case? Let the scriptures speak for themselves:
Matt 15:24,
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus was not sent "to" the church. Nothing he said was spoken "to" the church. He came for and spoke to Israel. In fact Jesus knew nothing about the church. When Jesus was here, the church was still a mystery (better translated as "secret") hidden with God. That secret remained hidden until it was revealed to Paul, which of course was some time after Jesus was here.Rom 16:25,
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Col 1:26-27,26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now (not before, when Jesus was here) is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
The church has everything to do with the secret. That secret is that the church is composed of neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28), who have been made into one new creation (Gal 6:15) , one body (Eph 2:16, 4:4). All of that and more is precisely what the secret was all about. It is God's plan for the church. His plan for the Jews and the Gentiles are completely separate and different.
Now, does all of that mean I ignore the Gospels? No! It just means I put them in their proper place. There is not one word in the scriptures I ignore. I may not understand all of them, but I never ignore them. As I said, I keep them in their proper place. I don't mix up what God said to the Jews with the things He says to the church. Doing so causes no end of confusion and false doctrrine.
What's puzzling about this to me is that @WPM liked your post #255, yet I was under the impression he interpreted Mat 24:32 like I do, not like Preterists do. I was thinking he took it mean the end of this age was near and not something still involving the first century instead. I don't care if he liked your post, yet it doesn't make sense to if he is not interpreting Mat 24:32 in the same manner as you are. IOW, he would be contradicting his interpretation of Mat 24:32 by agreeing with your interpretation.
You seem to have missed something rather important.
Matthew 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Which of your four claimed covenants were in His Blood, shed for the remission of sins?
How do you reconcile saving all Israel (ethnic Jews) with Romans 9 where Paul clearly says otherwise (only the remnant shall be saved)! Because only Israel of faith shall be saved. Salvation is not about ethnicity, all Israel is saved, according to Paul, when the fullness of Gentiles are grafted into the same good olive tree of faith with them. How can "all Israel" be ethnic Jews since Gentiles complete Israel?
Romans 11:12 (KJV) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Romans 11:25-27 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Israel in unbelief shall remain in unbelief UNTIL the fullness of Gentiles come in. Paul doesn't say then all Israel in unbelief shall be saved. How could he? Since the mystery that had been hidden, is made known through the coming of Christ, when the last trumpet sounds time given this earth whereby men might be saved, shall be no longer. The mystery hidden that Jews of faith with Gentiles of faith shall complete the spiritual Kingdom of God. Once the last Gentile has been saved, there won't be another one thousand years for unfaithful Israel to turn to Christ for everlasting life. Time is NOW for being saved. When the final trumpet begins to sound it will be too late for anyone who remains in unbelief.
Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Of course, unbelieving Jews believe it hasn't! They are still waiting for the promised Messiah to come! It's kind of like using the writings of the Jewish historian, Josephus to prove that which applies to Christ. While Josephus can shed much light on Jewish history, he lived and died never believing in Christ.
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