Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

[covenantee]

I just reread Acts 2 to make sure there was nothing there about a New Covenant. I still didn't see it. So taking the text for what it says, nobody experienced a New Covenant.

Read all of Jeremiah 31 where it talks about the New Covenant with Israel and with Judah. It's pretty obvious none of that came to pass on the day of Pentecost nor has come to pass as of the moment I'm writing. It's still future.

So 3,000 received Christ, but not one of them received His New Covenant??

Then why did He bother to give His New Covenant to His disciples? Matthew 26:27-28

 

[Douggg]

Have you asked them all?

I have discussed with the Jews at their sites. Gog/Magog is still unfulfilled in their view.

 

[Douggg]

Where in Ezekiel 39 does it mention a rapture of the church before a tribulation period?
Where does it mention the Church?
Where does it mentioned a rapture?
Where does it mention a tribulation period
Where does it mention a 3rd coming?

You are attempting to change the topic.

Ezekiel 39 is about the Gog/Magog event. And the things that take place in Israel following the Gog/Magog event. Including the 7 years, and then Armageddon, and Jesus's Second Coming to begin his 1000 years rule upon this earth from Jerusalem in Israel.

 

[IndianaRob]

You are attempting to change the topic.

Ezekiel 39 is about the Gog/Magog event. And the things that take place in Israel following the Gog/Magog event. Including the 7 years, and then Armageddon, and Jesus's Second Coming to begin his 1000 years rule upon this earth from Jerusalem in Israel.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 happened PROIR TO the day of Pentecost.

Ezk 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

This isn’t even debatable because the book of Acts tells us that Ezekiel 39:29 was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[covenantee]

I never saw anything about spiritual jurisprudence regarding Wills and Testaments in the scriptures.

Notice to whom Hebrews is written:

Heb 1:1,

On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets.​

​

The fathers are Jews and God never spoke through the prophets to the Gentiles and the church wasn't even around then.

The only other place that mentions a New Covenant is Jeremiah, another book written to Israel. Could it be that Hebrews, a book written to Jews is referring to Jeremiah, another book written to Jews? Furthermore, if you read all of Jeremiah 31 it is obvious none of it has come to pass.

All the other verses mentioned promises, but a promise is not a covenant.

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Those verses describe the legal terms, conditions, and characteristics, aka jurisprudence, of a Will and Testament.

Those in Christ are heirs of the promises of the New Will and Testament.

But not those who do not believe such, and demand to opt out.


If you read Hebrews 8:6-13, most of which is an essentially verbatim quote from Jeremiah 31, it is obvious that it has all come to pass.

It begins with:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

It ends with:
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Notice the tenses. They are exclusively past and present. Not one future tense to be seen.

That's complete fulfillment.

 

[WPM]

I have discussed with the Jews at their sites. Gog/Magog is still unfulfilled in their view.

Christ-rejecting Jews are blind to God's truth. If their eyes were open, they would be Christians.

 

[WPM]

You are attempting to change the topic.

Ezekiel 39 is about the Gog/Magog event. And the things that take place in Israel following the Gog/Magog event. Including the 7 years, and then Armageddon, and Jesus's Second Coming to begin his 1000 years rule upon this earth from Jerusalem in Israel.

LOL. Because this is not talking about any of that. You are butchering Scripture.

 

[Davidpt]

I have discussed with the Jews at their sites. Gog/Magog is still unfulfilled in their view.

And if anyone should know about things like that, you would think the Jews would know. After all, it does involve them.

It's probably the most preposterous thing I have ever heard of, and I have heard a lot of preposterous things in my time, that God has already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude and that they are long dead and buried. Who cares if the last days can't even begin until Christ was born first, right? We'll just ignore that fact.

And from the time Christ was born through now, and the fact God hasn't executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude thus far, what should that tell any reasonble thinking person? That God is simply a liar, that He is never going to execute His judgment on Gog and his multitude? Or that God is not a liar, He indeed is going to execute His judgment on Gog and his multitude, He just hasn't gotten around to it yet, as in, it's not yet the right time to fulfill this at this point?

 

[covenantee]

The church wasn’t born on Pentecost, Christ was in the church in the wilderness. The church has always existed but it is hidden in the Old Testament writings. Joel 2 tells us when the church was revealed.

Jol 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

That also tells us when the day of the Lord WAS.

Yes, I agree that the Church was in the OT within Israel. Acts 7:38.

But the inauguration of the New Covenant at Calvary necessitated a New Covenant Church to carry its gospel message to the world.

That Church was born at Pentecost.

 

[rwb]

And if anyone should know about things like that, you would think the Jews would know. After all, it does involve them.

It's probably the most preposterous thing I have ever heard of, and I have heard a lot of preposterous things in my time, that God has already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude and that they are long dead and buried. Who cares if the last days can't even begin until Christ was born first, right? We'll just ignore that fact.

And from the time Christ was born through now, and the fact God hasn't executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude thus far, what should that tell any reasonble thinking person? That God is simply a liar, that He is never going to execute His judgment on Gog and his multitude? Or that God is not a liar, He indeed is going to execute His judgment on Gog and his multitude, He just hasn't gotten around to it yet, as in, it's not yet the right time to fulfill this at this point?

Seriously? Do you really think those practicing Orthodox Judaism (deniers of Christ) know better how to understand the New Testament Scriptures than Messianic (Christian) Jews?

 

[Rich R]

You do not have eyes to see here. Truth is by revelation, not mere knowledge (or what you have been taught).

What truth from Jeremiah am I missing? What revelation do get from reading it? Did God reveal to you that Jeremiah 31:31 was talking about the church instead of Israel and Judah?

You might want to check out how many times the word "knowledge" is used in the Bible. I think you'd see that it's a good thing.

 

[rwb]

Christ-rejecting Jews are blind to God's truth. If their eyes were open, they would be Christians.

Amen!

 

[Davidpt]

LOL. Because this is not talking about any of that. You are butchering Scripture.

In your mind then, though Ezekiel 38-39 undeniably involves the last days, this means we are all wrong that the last days can't begin until Christ was born first, that it already began maybe thousands of years before Christ was born? If that's not worthy of a ROTFL I don't know what is?

 

[Rich R]

What is this new covenant you believe will be in the future for Israel and Judah that the Covenant through the blood of Christ apparently lacks for them?

Well the new covenant is the one in Jeremiah 31:31 which was made with Israel and Judah. Read the whole chapter and you should see none of it has happened to date. You may also notice that it says nothing about the blood of Christ. That's something else altogether different. We ought not to read one part of scripture into another when it's unwarranted.

 

[IndianaRob]

In your mind then, though Ezekiel 38-39 undeniably involves the last days, this means we are all wrong that the last days can't begin until Christ was born first, that it already began maybe thousands of years before Christ was born? If that's not worthy of a ROTFL I don't know what is?

The last days were the last days of Israel. God is done with the nation of Israel forever as prophesied by Amos.

Amo 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.

Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

When Jesus said “summer is nigh” he was telling the Jews that Amos 8 was being fulfilled right in front of their eyes.

 

[Davidpt]

Amen!

None of these unbelieving Jews are going to think Ezekiel 38-39 involves Christ to begin with. Even some Christians don't believe it will be involving Christ if they have Ezekiel 38-39 fulfilled and already in the past before Christ was born. Why then, assuming Ezekiel 38-39 was fulfilled before Christ was born, and that unbelieving Jews know that, would they then be trying to hide this fact? For what reason? Common sense says they are not trying to hide anything, they simply know that nothing involving their history in the past fits Ezekiel 38-39. So what if they are unbelieving Jews, they are still God's ppl unless some of you want to insist God lied to us in Ezekiel 38-39 when God clearly said they are His people.

 

[Davidpt]

Seriously? Do you really think those practicing Orthodox Judaism (deniers of Christ) know better how to understand the New Testament Scriptures than Messianic (Christian) Jews?

In this case we're discussing the OT not the NT. We're discussing Ezekiel 38-39, remember?

 

[rwb]

Well the new covenant is the one in Jeremiah 31:31 which was made with Israel and Judah. Read the whole chapter and you should see none of it has happened to date. You may also notice that it says nothing about the blood of Christ. That's something else altogether different. We ought not to read one part of scripture into another when it's unwarranted.

The Covenant to them was fulfilled through Christ. You must isolate the Old Covenant prophets from what is plainly explained in the New to continue to hang on to your dispensational doctrine that is not biblical knowledge but knowledge from the minds of man.

 

[Rich R]

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? When this new covenant for Israel and Judah comes will Paul have to revert back to the Old Law that is done away in Christ to be saved?

Not sure why all the question marks. I didn't say anything that complicated. But if you didn't get it, no problem. I'll try to elaborate just a bit.

Galatians 3:28 says in the most simple terms possible that Christians are neither Jew nor Gentile. Here's another verse that says the same thing:

Col 3:11,

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.​

Ephesians 3:6 says that Gentiles and Jews are now one body.

None of these verses (and others like them) say Christians are still a Jew or a Gentile, nor will they ever revert back to being a Jew or a Gentile.

Have you read all of Jeremiah as I suggested? If so, what are your thoughts?

 

[Davidpt]

The last days were the last days of Israel. God is done with the nation of Israel forever as prophesied by Amos.

Amo 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.

Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

When Jesus said “summer is nigh” he was telling the Jews that Amos 8 was being fulfilled right in front of their eyes.

What period of time are you applying that to in Amos 8? until I know that first, I can't make sense of your post in the meantime.