CALVINISM IS SIMPLY THE GOSPEL BELIEVED

[Eternally Grateful]

You clearly don't know or understand Scripture.

Says the one who takes whatever he is told as gospel truth.

don’t attack my understanding when you do not even have your own understanding..

When Jesus gave Peter the "keys to the kingdom" in Matt. 16:19, He was referring to an office of second-in-command that every first century Jew would have understood. (See Isaiah 22;22 for an example.) Kings back in those days had someone assigned as second-in-command to rule the kingdom in the king's absence (off to war, ill, visiting another kingdom, etc.) The symbol of this office was a large key or two, about 2-3 ft. long, that he carried over his shoulder. When the king returned, he upheld the second-in-commands rulings. This position was dynastic, meaning, if the second-in-command died or was unable to function, another was appointed in his place. This is exactly what Jesus was doing. He knew he would be ascending to heaven and wanted someone on earth to rule His kingdom on earth until He returned. Peter was the first to hold this office.

Nope. This is not true.

Paul went to peter james and John who were heads of the church in Jerusalem

Jesus never sent any of the disciples out on their own. And Paul never went out on his own. There is a reason for this.. The catholic churhc is a great reason, among many other churches who only have one leader which no one can hold accountable..

Your religion is you.

I have no religion. I point to Jesus not my self

You claim authority that was never given to you.

I claim no authority. Dude, You need to stop. Like many catholics, you can not actually discuss scripture so you just attack anyone who does not agree with you.. If thats what you’re going to do. Go back to your church and live in peace.

You hold yourself and your personal interpretation as the highest standard of truth. But as Proverbs 3:5 says, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own intelligence do not rely"

Nope. I test the spirit. If I get it wrong, it’s on me, If I trust a church leader (which i did for many years) and I get it wrong. Its again on me.

God will hold me accountable. Just like he will hold you accountable. You want to follow blindly, feel free. Count me out.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Then please

I did this years ago. I have done it many times over, And in non of my reading do I see biblical support.

Please then, briefly show why each of the five points in unbiblical

T=total depravity- mankind is totally lost
U= unconditional election- man has to perform nothing in order to come to christ
L= limited atonement- only those who are saved receive the removal of their sins from them.
I= irresistible grace- no man can come to Jesus unless drawn to Him by God the Father.
P= perseverance of the saints- once a person is given eternal life, they are forever saved.

Please sho wwhy you think these are not biblical and I will gladly show you from Scripture why they are.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All I see here is your view. You keep saying they are inspired. Where is it inspired. Chapter and verse.. You saying it is the word. And others saying it is not, is not helping. You claim it is, Back your statement

I just gave a brief of the five points in the answer above. Please show why they are not biblical and I will answer.
Also you can look up the thread I made entitled TULIP explained where I gave several verses for each of the five points.
T= total depravity. This does not mean that mankind is as evil as they can be, but all are as lost as they can be. No one is partially saved.
John 3:3, Roman 3:10, Rom. 3:23

U= unconditional election. this simply means that a person does not have to "clean up their act", say X amount of prayers or do X amount of good deeds before they can come to saving faith in Jesus. All that is required is faith in christ. Eph 2:8, Rom.10:9

L= limited atonement. this is a hotly contested item. These simply means that only the elect receive the atonement. The biggest reason for the disagreement I have found is that people confuse the meaning of atonement with propitiation. Jesus is the propitiation for all of mankind. That means He is the acceptable sacrifice for all of mankind, thus making all men savable. However, in the NT , atonement means an erasing of sin, and only the elect have their sins erased.

I = Irresistible grace. This is another hotly debated one. This is the argument between predestination and free will. This does not mean that God makes believers do everything they do every day. This has to do with the Elect being predestined to be saved before God created the world and they will be drawn to jesus.

First th enegative. The unsaved man cannot do anything that pleases God.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Now the positive! The elect will be drawn to God!

Psalm 139:13
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Galatians 1:15
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

P= perseverance of the saints or eternal security! or also known as once saved always saved.

See verses for I above and then also:

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then please

Please then, briefly show why each of the five points in unbiblical

T=total depravity- mankind is totally lost

Thats not what it says, it says man is so lost he would never come

Total depravity asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God, but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to trust God for their salvation and be saved

The last part is not found in scripture

Irrisistable grace - asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith.

This is not found in scripture

U= unconditional election- man has to perform nothing in order to come to christ

unconditional Election asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.[11]

The bolded part is not found in scripture

L= limited atonement- only those who are saved receive the removal of their sins from them.

Limited atonement asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death.

The bolded part is not found in scripture

I= irresistible grace- no man can come to Jesus unless drawn to Him by God the Father.

Irrisistable grace - asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith.

This is not found in scripture

P= perseverance of the saints- once a person is given eternal life, they are forever saved.

Perseverance of the saints. - The saints do not persevere. God keeps them, the term itself is not found in scripture.

Please show why you think these are not biblical and I will gladly show you from Scripture why they are.

There, I puit the actual terms down. you seemed to get A few of them wrong, or were not complete in your definition of them.

Again, Your state they are scriptural. It is up for you to back your statement..

can you?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Total depravity asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God, but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to trust God for their salvation and be saved

1. John 3:27
   John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
2. John 6:44
   No man cancome to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
3. John 6:65
   And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man cancome unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
   4.
   Romans 8:8
   So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
   

   Irrisistable grace - asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith.
   
   This is not found in scripture

   
   John 6:44
   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
   
   
   Ephesians 1:4
   According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
   

   unconditional Election asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.[11]
   
   The bolded part is not found in scripture

   Romans 9:14-24
   
   King James Version
   
   ​

   14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
   15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
   16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
   17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
   18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
   19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
   20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
   21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
   22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
   23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
   24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
   

   Limited atonement asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death.

   1 John 2:2
   And he is the propitiationfor our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
   
   This one takes a little study. propitiation is: "hilasmos" and means the accepted or acceptable sacrifice for sins.
   Atonement is "katallage" which means an exchange. we gice Jesus our sinfulness and he gives us His righteousness. It also connotes an erasure of ones debt. Only the saved have their sin debtr removed! The sacrifice is universal but the erasure is limited.
   

   Perseverance of the saints. - The saints do not persevere. God keeps them, the term itself is not found in scripture.

   Yes it is god who keeps the saint. It simply means eternal security. god will save those forever, who come to Jesus.
4. 
   
5. Don't get hung up on a word to describe, but the description itself.
6. 
   
7. So I just ahowed you all five points are biblical.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I just gave a brief of the five points in the answer above. Please show why they are not biblical and I will answer.
Also you can look up the thread I made entitled TULIP explained where I gave several verses for each of the five points.
T= total depravity. This does not mean that mankind is as evil as they can be, but all are as lost as they can be. No one is partially saved.
John 3:3, Roman 3:10, Rom. 3:23

If this was in total depravity meant, I may be able to agree. But as i showed above, it is more than this..

U= unconditional election. this simply means that a person does not have to "clean up their act", say X amount of prayers or do X amount of good deeds before they can come to saving faith in Jesus. All that is required is faith in christ. Eph 2:8, Rom.10:9

Again, it is not a complete explanation. It olso says God elects some to hell. Without give in them a chance. Neither of the passages you gave support this view.

L= limited atonement. this is a hotly contested item. These simply means that only the elect receive the atonement. The biggest reason for the disagreement I have found is that people confuse the meaning of atonement with propitiation. Jesus is the propitiation for all of mankind. That means He is the acceptable sacrifice for all of mankind, thus making all men savable. However, in the NT , atonement means an erasing of sin, and only the elect have their sins erased.

Again, this is not true, ALL MANNER of blasphemy and sin WILL BE FORGIVEN all men.

Men are not sent to hell because of personal sin, Jesus made atonement for those things.

He did not pay for the sin of unbelief though, thats why he himself said, He died for the whole world. So that whoever IN THAT WORKS believes will never perish but has eternal life. He who believes is not condemned. But he who does not believe is condemned already, not because of their sin, not because Jesus did nto pay for their sin, he did. But because they did not believe.

There is only really one thing a man can do that will seperate him from being a child of God (born again) and not being a child of God. His faith. God. In His grace, offers salvation to everyone, But only those who in fath recieve that gift (see john 1) will be saved, Not because they earn it, they could never earn it. But because Jesus paid it all and offered it to them. If they will recieve it.

I = Irresistible grace. This is another hotly debated one. This is the argument between predestination and free will. This does not mean that God makes believers do everything they do every day. This has to do with the Elect being predestined to be saved before God created the world and they will be drawn to jesus.

It is deeper than this, your not goin deep enough in your explanations. Again, see my response above.

First th enegative. The unsaved man cannot do anything that pleases God.

The tax collecter did do anything that pleased God. He fell on his knees having become poor in spirit and cried out for Gods mercy.

The pharisee on the other hand, refused to repent, refused to see his sin and his condemnation. Even though Jesus showed him almost daily. As the HS has been doing since the begining of time, trying to draw them to himself. And they rejected his grace.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Does not support your view. It only shows what everyone already knows. Without God drawing us, we would never come to him.

which is where the disagreements come. How does God draw us, what does he do. What has to happen..

Now the positive! The elect will be drawn to God!

Psalm 139:13
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Galatians 1:15
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Which here you go. Take a bunch of passages outside of context and do not come to the real conclusion

Yes God predestined us,, But not the way you think.

He did not give me some special power So i can see it And withhold it from others so they will never see it

for this reason. This is not supported in scripture. As I showed you above

P= perseverance of the saints or eternal security! or also known as once saved always saved.

See verses for I above and then also:

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Eternal security Amen

But I do not get this because I persevere. i get it Because God holds me tight and will never let me go.

again,, I can knock holes in all 5 points.. so they can not be biblically sound

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1. John 3:27
   John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
2. John 6:44
   No man cancome to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
3. John 6:65
   And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man cancome unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
   4.
   Romans 8:8
   So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Your Not listening, and I do believe this is why these debates get so tempered, and out of control.

I am not debating that a person can not come to christ on their own. I never have,

so when you come at me with a GOTCHA verses that do not even counter what I said. It is a waste of my time and actually a waste of yours.

These passages do not prove your point in response to the answer that I gave that they are unable to chose to place their faith in God.

You can post them to me 10000 times, it will not prove your point.

A non believe CAN repent and chose to trust God. In fact, HE BETTER, because if he does not. He will die in unbelief and be cast to hell because of it

Granted, God has to help. But not the way you think. Or the way you teach.

1. 
   
   
   John 6:44
   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
   
   
   Ephesians 1:4
   According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

John 6, And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

If the passages you posted were the only verses on the subject, you made have a point. But you left some very important verses out.

Its Gods will that whoever sees and believes, Predestination is based on this fact.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

New birth does not happen UNTIL one believes.

And we have been over john 3 so many times, I lost count. So I do not think I have to go into John 3. In when one is born again, WHEN THEY LOOK TO THE CROSS IN FAITH

so sorry. Your passages do not prove your point..

1. 
   
   

   Romans 9:14-24
   
   King James Version
   ​

   14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
   15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
   16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
   17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
   18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
   19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
   20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
   21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
   22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
   23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
   24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
   
   1 John 2:2
   And he is the propitiationfor our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
   
   This one takes a little study. propitiation is: "hilasmos" and means the accepted or acceptable sacrifice for sins.
   Atonement is "katallage" which means an exchange. we gice Jesus our sinfulness and he gives us His righteousness. It also connotes an erasure of ones debt. Only the saved have their sin debtr removed! The sacrifice is universal but the erasure is limited.
   
   Yes it is god who keeps the saint. It simply means eternal security. god will save those forever, who come to Jesus.
2. 
   
3. Don't get hung up on a word to describe, but the description itself.
4. 
   
5. So I just ahowed you all five points are biblical.

Roman’s 9 does not support your view God did not hate a baby and condemn that baby to hell. There is no evidence in scripture that esau was not even saved. esau also had a relationship with God.

Paul in Roman’s 9 quotes Malichi, and quotes where God loved the nation of Israel because he had a place for them, but hated the nation of edom, because they sinned against him and he swore they would never be a nation again

So sorry. If you’re going to try to use romans 9 to support your view. It will nto work on me.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If this was in total depravity meant, I may be able to agree. But as i showed above, it is more than this..

An unsaved man is morally incapable of choosing God in and of themself.

Again, it is not a complete explanation. It olso says God elects some to hell. Without give in them a chance. Neither of the passages you gave support this view.

But god does not condemn people to hell. People by nature are condemned to hell on their own. God just executes the deserved sentence. Billions of people have lived and died and never had a chance to hear the gospel and be saved! they had no chance at all!

Again, this is not true, ALL MANNER of blasphemy and sin WILL BE FORGIVEN all men.

This is a potential and not actual. If all sins are all forgiven for all men ,then all are saved! but this is only a possibility based on teh requirements of Scripture. Once again jesus is the propitiation of all mens sins, but not all sins are atoned.

Men are not sent to hell because of personal sin, Jesus made atonement for those things.

No! You won't find that in Scripture! He is the propitiation for all sins, but propitiation and atonement are two seperate things.

There is only really one thing a man can do that will seperate him from being a child of God (born again) and not being a child of God. His faith. God. In His grace, offers salvation to everyone, But only those who in fath recieve that gift (see john 1) will be saved, Not because they earn it, they could never earn it. But because Jesus paid it all and offered it to them. If they will recieve it.

Please explain this statement in light of the fact that right now over 3 billion people will live and die and never have a chance to accept Jesus as Savior.

It is deeper than this, your not goin deep enough in your explanations. Again, see my response above.

Not really. YOu answer above is very biblical. God overcomes mans natural rejection of the gospel in the elect.

The tax collecter did do anything that pleased God. He fell on his knees having become poor in spirit and cried out for Gods mercy.

The pharisee on the other hand, refused to repent, refused to see his sin and his condemnation. Even though Jesus showed him almost daily. As the HS has been doing since the begining of time, trying to draw them to himself. And they rejected his grace.

And that repentance of the tax man was given to Him by God ! It is not of ones will

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 9:16

King James Version

​

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Which here you go. Take a bunch of passages outside of context and do not come to the real conclusion

Yes God predestined us,, But not the way you think.

Back this accusation with fact from Scripture. Just saying something without support is saying nothing.

But I do not get this because I persevere. i get it Because God holds me tight and will never let me go.

again,, I can knock holes in all 5 points.. so they can not be biblically sound

Once again you are being anal because of a word and not how they define it. It is God who keeps us saved and that is how the saints persevere. Read what is meant by this.

A non believe CAN repent and chose to trust God. In fact, HE BETTER, because if he does not. He will die in unbelief and be cast to hell because of it

Granted, God has to help. But not the way you think. Or the way you teach.

So tell me the way you think and teach. Just saying this is saying nothing.

John 6, And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

If the passages you posted were the only verses on the subject, you made have a point. But you left some very important verses out.

Its Gods will that whoever sees and believes, Predestination is based on this fact.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

New birth does not happen UNTIL one believes.

And we have been over john 3 so many times, I lost count. So I do not think I have to go into John 3. In when one is born again, WHEN THEY LOOK TO THE CROSS IN FAITH

so sorry. Your passages do not prove your point..

Nor does your verses prove yours.

You post simple aorist verses which are simple statement of facts. They do not teach anything at all about free will or predestination. they are simply saying that whoever does A- then B happens. It does not say How or who or when or why! Those are found elsewhere in Scripture.

Roman’s 9 does not support your view God did not hate a baby and condemn that baby to hell. There is no evidence in scripture that esau was not even saved. esau also had a relationship with God.

Paul in Roman’s 9 quotes Malichi, and quotes where God loved the nation of Israel because he had a place for them, but hated the nation of edom, because they sinned against him and he swore they would never be a nation again

So sorry. If you’re going to try to use romans 9 to support your view. It will nto work on me.

Then that is you problem with god.

Paul concludes the passage with this verse:

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

He is talking people here and not nations or cities.

In order for a person to go to hell, all that man or God has to do is nothing! We are born condemned! God does not send people to hell, we send ourselves by nature!!

But to be saved- God foreordains us and fits us to glory!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

An unsaved man is morally incapable of choosing God in and of themself.

Once again, if this is all it meant, we would agree. But we both know it goes much deeper than this.

But god does not condemn people to hell.

yes he does. It was his justice that demanded a wage of sin. Even worse. He says that in Adam all die. So just by being born of adam, all mankind is judged to hell based on Gods Justice..

People by nature are condemned to hell on their own.

Nope. People can not condemn themselves By nature . Only God can condemn them. And remember, we are born dead, in adam, we must be made alive.. Even they must be made alive, And Jesus tells us when this happens in John 3, and not every one will accept this , in THIS token, they condemn themselve, but more importanlty. Is how the one who is no longer condemned I saved. That is what seperates the two And it in in this that they condemn themselves. Not by nature. Because they know what they are doing. Romans 1 makes this quite clear

God just executes the deserved sentence.

No he just does not execute deserved sentence, if he did this we would all suffer. Because every one of us is guilty. So it has to be more than this, especially since he is fighting satans lie that God is not a god of love, He destroyed satans lie by what he did..

Billions of people have lived and died and never had a chance to hear the gospel and be saved! they had no chance at all!

Actually they have heard the truth, Satan exposes them to the truth. Everyone no matter where you are becomes conscious of the truth. They can respond one way or the other. God has proven time and time again, when people are open, he has got the word to them.

This is a potential and not actual. If all sins are all forgiven for all men ,then all are saved!

That is only true if the sin of unbelief is forgiven. We know by scripture tha unbelief is not forgiven.

but this is only a possibility based on teh requirements of Scripture. Once again jesus is the propitiation of all mens sins, but not all sins are atoned.

Again, not true. He can not propitiate for all sin, unless all sin is Atoned for.

No! You won't find that in Scripture! He is the propitiation for all sins, but propitiation and atonement are two seperate things.

yes, but he still died for the world. Jesus said all manner of sin and blasphemy SHALL (not might) be forgiven all men

you either trust jesus (the one who would pay the debt) or you do not

the choice is yours.

Please explain this statement in light of the fact that right now over 3 billion people will live and die and never have a chance to accept Jesus as Savior.

Oh they had a chance to have faith in God.. If they are not given that Chance, Then God failed..romans 1 says they not only Know God. They know they are condemned by God. The people n the OT were saved, not knowing Jesus name.. You see , I have faith in a fair god that is not a respector of persons.. He told us we must believe, so I believe he gives everyone a chance to believe

Not really. YOu answer above is very biblical. God overcomes mans natural rejection of the gospel in the elect.

lol. He gives everyone a chance, the elect chose to freely recieve him, in faith, and are then made alive,

the lost who remain lost had the same chance but chose to say no. Just like those in Moses day who had gthe same chance to be saved by trusting God and looking to the serpent, but chose instead to say no.. and they died..

God was gorified. Because he offered salvation to them all.. he did nto keep the truth from any of them..

And that repentance of the tax man was given to Him by God ! It is not of ones will

The repentance of the tax man was of his will. It was his will to call on God for mercy.. He did not will himself to salvation, Only God could save him, He just cried out to God

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

yes, this is why they need Gods help. We have been over this

Romans 9:16​

​

King James Version​

​

​

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Back this accusation with fact from Scripture. Just saying something without support is saying nothing.

Once again, Romans 9 does not support you. I will not discuss it with you

Once again you are being anal

Dude should I report you? How dare you use that kind of language because we disagree and I can not come to your view? Unlike you, i will give you a change to repent of these words and say your sorry..

because of a word and not how they define it. It is God who keeps us saved and that is how the saints persevere. Read what is meant by this.

The saints do not persevere, That would be them of their own power.

God keeps them, It is in HIS power.

you scream at people you call arminian by claiming they look to self. Yet in using this terminology, you are looking to self (even though I know you are not) the language says otherwise. So why use the language??

So tell me the way you think and teach. Just saying this is saying nothing.

Because it goes against your belief?

Jesus said he died for the world. That WHOEVER believes will not perish.

that means we must chose to trust him, if he does not give us the opportunity. Then God is at fault not me… and he is a liar.

Nor does your verses prove yours.

Thats fine if you think so. But it does not make your verses support your view

You post simple aorist verses which are simple statement of facts. They do not teach anything at all about free will or predestination. they are simply saying that whoever does A- then B happens. It does not say How or who or when or why! Those are found elsewhere in Scripture.

Jesus told us how when or why in John 3, John 4 John 5 and John 6.

If you do not wish to see this, thats fine, But people do not say we do not see it. We do.

Then that is you problem with god.

I have no problem with God. You do.

Paul concludes the passage with this verse:

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Look again at the ot Passage paul quoted.

All of them

He says what if the thing the Potter was making became tainted or destroyed itself. Does not the potter have the right to tear it down and make it again?

The clay was isreal

It destroyed itself with its sin

God tore it down, and is making it a new vessel, which in the end will glorify him.

It’s not induviduals. You can not quote another person out of Context like you are claiming Paul did. Paul quoted the OT knowing people would look back to the text, or already knew it and would understand immediately what he was talking about.

A calvinist does not do this. He takes pauls words. totally rejects the context of the origional author. And makes paul say something else.

Thats why I refuse to discuss romans 9 with a calvinist. I make the take me other places. You can not make a doctrine on one chapter.

He is talking people here and not nations or cities.

WRONG

In order for a person to go to hell, all that man or God has to do is nothing!

Your right,

But in order to go to heaven, that man also has to do nothing. But trust God and recieve his gift of eternal life.

Actually in order to go to hell. The man has to do something, he has to turn away from Gods gift. And reject it..

We are born condemned! God does not send people to hell, we send ourselves by nature!!

You just proved my point that it is God who condemned us, because he made us born condemned.. We did not make ourselves born condemned

But to be saved- God foreordains us and fits us to glory!

He predestines those who believe to be conformed to his image. Thats what the text says,

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Once again, if this is all it meant, we would agree. But we both know it goes much deeper than this.

You are marvelous at making great broad statements but then fail at defining what you mean.

yes he does. It was his justice that demanded a wage of sin. Even worse. He says that in Adam all die. So just by being born of adam, all mankind is judged to hell based on Gods Justice..

Wrong. God executes the sentence each person deserves. He laid out the parameters and warned of the consequences in the beginning.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It is far more than what you say.

the lost who remain lost had the same chance but chose to say no. Just like those in Moses day who had gthe same chance to be saved by trusting God and looking to the serpent, but chose instead to say no.. and they died..

Tell that to the generastions who lived and died in nations where the name Jesus was never heard by multitudes.

If this was in total depravity meant, I may be able to agree. But as i showed above, it is more than this..

No you haven't showed, you just blurted it is more. Still waiting for you to elucidate what you mean that it is far more.

yes he does. It was his justice that demanded a wage of sin. Even worse. He says that in Adam all die. So just by being born of adam, all mankind is judged to hell based on Gods Justice..

God getsw to make the rules- we do not. We can choose to accept or reject that is how chose to save us.

Nope. People can not condemn themselves By nature . Only God can condemn them. And remember, we are born dead, in adam, we must be made alive.. Even they must be made alive, And Jesus tells us when this happens in John 3, and not every one will accept this , in THIS token, they condemn themselve, but more importanlty. Is how the one who is no longer condemned I saved. That is what seperates the two And it in in this that they condemn themselves. Not by nature. Because they know what they are doing. Romans 1 makes this quite clear

They are condemned by their nature. Man is condemned, God merely sentences what their condemnation deserves.

The saints do not persevere, That would be them of their own power.

If that is what you wish to think- so be it. But the P in tulip says something far different than you rthinking. You cannot see the forest (eternal security) for the tree called perseverance.

No he just does not execute deserved sentence, if he did this we would all suffer. Because every one of us is guilty. So it has to be more than this, especially since he is fighting satans lie that God is not a god of love, He destroyed satans lie by what he did..

Then you do not know the bible well. Yes all men deserve damnation, but because the saved are the elect, because of Jesus we deserve mercy and grace!

That is only true if the sin of unbelief is forgiven. We know by scripture tha unbelief is not forgiven.

Are you saying jesus did not die for all sins then? No sin is forgiven until one trusts Jesus and His death and REsurrection.

Because it goes against your belief?

Jesus said he died for the world. That WHOEVER believes will not perish.

that means we must chose to trust him, if he does not give us the opportunity. Then God is at fault not me… and he is a liar.

No, I am asking you to explain why you disagree and support your own belief. That is the norm for a conversation such as this.

Thats fine if you think so. But it does not make your verses support your view

Still waiting for you to explain why from Scripture.

Jesus told us how when or why in John 3, John 4 John 5 and John 6.

If you do not wish to see this, thats fine, But people do not say we do not see it. We do.

Please show anywhere in the four chapters you listed where free will is demonstrated.

I have no problem with God. You do.

I get along with god just fine thank you. My problem is you make statements then do not support them with Scripture.

Look again at the ot Passage paul quoted.

All of them

He says what if the thing the Potter was making became tainted or destroyed itself. Does not the potter have the right to tear it down and make it again?

The clay was isreal

It destroyed itself with its sin

God tore it down, and is making it a new vessel, which in the end will glorify him.

It’s not induviduals. You can not quote another person out of Context like you are claiming Paul did. Paul quoted the OT knowing people would look back to the text, or already knew it and would understand immediately what he was talking about.

A calvinist does not do this. He takes pauls words. totally rejects the context of the origional author. And makes paul say something else.

Thats why I refuse to discuss romans 9 with a calvinist. I make the take me other places. You can not make a doctrine on one chapter.

Well the five points are made by dozens upon dozens of vewrses.

and Paul was not referring to Israel alone. He mentioned pharoah. then at the end of the passage he speaks of Jews and gentiles.

And you are 100% wrong when you say it becomes tainted or destroys itself. That is a lie!

Here is what it says:

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God raised pharoah up to show His power.
God hardens and has mercy on whom HE wills and not what man does.
vse 21: God makes the vessels to honor or dishonor not man

vse22 the vessels of wrath are made for destruction
vse 23 God prepared the vessels of mercy ahead of time.
and most importantly- Not just Israel but among the gentiles also. Indiviiduals and not nations.

If you disagree with this- show from Scripture why you do.

But in order to go to heaven, that man also has to do nothing. But trust God and recieve his gift of eternal life.

Actually in order to go to hell. The man has to do something, he has to turn away from Gods gift. And reject it..

Oxymoron- if turning away is something then turning to and receiving i ssomething. That is common rules of understanding action in a sentence.

He predestines those who believe to be conformed to his image. Thats what the text says,

That is what teh one verse in romans 8 says.

But we are still the elect, chosen foreknown forordained and predestinated by God and not of our own free will:

As it says in romans 9:

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Still waiting for you to show from Scripture that I am taking verses out of context and having them say something other than Scripture intended.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are marvelous at making great broad statements but then fail at defining what you mean.

Your marvelous of reading what people post. then forgetting or ignoring it.

I wrote it in my first response. You have yet to address what i wrong. you just spoke as if you know it all..

Go back and read my first post. it will explain it to you quite well. Or remain ignorant.

Wrong. God executes the sentence each person deserves.

Each of us deserve hell.

the wage of sin isa death. since each of us have sinned, we all have recieved our just punishment.

Also. just by being in adam, we all were dead.

so we already had our punishment, If it is not removed, or replaced with the gift of life. then we will remain in this state for eternity, and on the last day, be cast with our father, satan, to outer darkness,.

He laid out the parameters and warned of the consequences in the beginning.

Your right, He told Adam, on that day you eat, you will die.
He tells us, we must be born again, why? because we are dead.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Exactly. He KNEW pharoah would do exactly what Pharaoh would do. so he raised him up so that he would be the one in power. And God could use him to show his power.

But that has nothing to do with salvation.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

The word harden literally means to strengthen. God strengthens your own will. making it harder for you to repent.

Thats what he does. he puts truth in your face, and every time you deny that truth, you become weekend or hardened to come to that truth. You believe your false truth even more, witch strengthens you to remain in your own false belief.

This is basic Christianity 101, I am amazed they do not teach you this basic fact.

A great example I like to use is a person who in rebellions swears 2 + 2 = 5, even though he knows it is not true, the more he gets shown 2 + 2 = 4 and the more he resists, the more hardened or strenthened he comes to not believe that 2 + 2 = 4 and that it really equals 5. he will eventually come to the point, no matter how much evidence you show him, he will never believe 2 + 2 e 4..

Thats why God said, show them the truth so that hearin gthey may not hear and seeing they may not see.

again, basic christianity.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Jer 18:
3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the ]wheel. 4 And the vessel that he [b]made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.


5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”

I will say one thing about you calvinists. You are the hardest people (with the exception of maybe a caholic) that I have ever met.

Read the OT passage, as the romans would have done, to get context.

what did God say here

I make you (israel) as a potter makes clay. If a potter is making clay and that clay becomes marred in the potters hand, Is it not the potters option to destroy it and reform it?

Thats context.. anything outside of this is just willful thinking

I told you to get away from romans 9. I will not tell you again, You want to keep pushing a passage you do not understand, then we are done conversing, Your pride is too deep.

It is far more than what you say.

Tell that to the generastions who lived and died in nations where the name Jesus was never heard by multitudes.

lol.. How about I listen to the many missionaries I have heard who went into uncharted territory and when they got there, the people told them that God said they were sending them, and to look for them.

Again, I have faith God will keep his word. why do you not have faith?? what is so wrong with God that you doubt him?

No you haven't showed, you just blurted it is more. Still waiting for you to elucidate what you mean that it is far more.

God getsw to make the rules- we do not. We can choose to accept or reject that is how chose to save us.

Yep, and he told us in his won words.

WHoever believes is not condemned,

whoever does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed.

Your argument is with Jesus, Not me,

They are condemned by their nature. Man is condemned, God merely sentences what their condemnation deserves.

They are condemned because they do not believe, JESUS WORDS> NOT MINE!!

If that is what you wish to think- so be it. But the P in tulip says something far different than you rthinking. You cannot see the forest (eternal security) for the tree called perseverance.

This shows your hard heart.

You can not even see the logic in what I said, because your to proud..

the wording (perseverance of the saints) Is misleading, because it states a saint must persevere.

no you and I both know whats not what it means, But I am talking about the laymen..

Then you do not know the bible well. Yes all men deserve damnation, but because the saved are the elect, because of Jesus we deserve mercy and grace!

I teach grace, grace is freely given freely recieved. it is not earned.

so your point is rejected. and you are a false accuser.

Are you saying jesus did not die for all sins then? No sin is forgiven until one trusts Jesus and His death and Resurrection.

Jesus said otherwise. But you can't hear. you know I am done trying to explain it to you that all manner of sin WILL BE (not might be ) forgive all men, and that the sin of unbelief is what condemns a person. Your sadly still trying to fight Catholicism or arminianism or something, that you can not see beyond that . I am not even reading the rest, of your not going to take the time and give respect enough to read and keep making the same accusations over and over. I am done.,

 

[Ronald Nolette]

lol.. How about I listen to the many missionaries I have heard who went into uncharted territory and when they got there, the people told them that God said they were sending them, and to look for them.

Again, I have faith God will keep his word. why do you not have faith?? what is so wrong with God that you doubt him?

That does not equate to them hearing the gospel and having an opportunity to be saved.

Your marvelous of reading what people post. then forgetting or ignoring it.

I wrote it in my first response. You have yet to address what i wrong. you just spoke as if you know it all..

Go back and read my first post. it will explain it to you quite well. Or remain ignorant.

I went back and looked at all your posts , from you first (#8) to the first post to respond to me. Youi offered lots of conjecture and opinion and claims against me and others but only 7 bible verses in all your numerous responses. That is not supporting your claims and showing your accusations against me and others bear any weight or reality.

Yep, and he told us in his won words.

WHoever believes is not condemned,

whoever does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed.

Your argument is with Jesus, Not me,

No, my argument is with you. YOu make a simple statement of fact and twist it into some doctrine of free will of the unsaved.

This shows your hard heart.

You can not even see the logic in what I said, because your to proud..

the wording (perseverance of the saints) Is misleading, because it states a saint must persevere.

no you and I both know whats not what it means, But I am talking about the laymen..

Wow! You really suck at knowing peoples hearts! I told you to read how they define the P and yet you stubbornly cling to your own perception. Once again , you can't see the twig in someone elses eye for the log in your own.

Have the last word. If you are not willing to defend your accusations and claims against others with Scripture (and you haven't) , I do not wish to fight your own belief system.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That does not equate to them hearing the gospel and having an opportunity to be saved.

Again, Unlike you I have faith in God.

He can talk to them.. And they can hear and understand

I went back and looked at all your posts , from you first (#8) to the first post to respond to me. Youi offered lots of conjecture and opinion and claims against me and others but only 7 bible verses in all your numerous responses. That is not supporting your claims and showing your accusations against me and others bear any weight or reality.

I was refuting your points, I want not trying to share mine..

I did not accuse. I showed proof..

No, my argument is with you. YOu make a simple statement of fact and twist it into some doctrine of free will of the unsaved.

Yawn, Dude get over yourself.

You said you could prove the 5 points with scripture.

You failed miserably. unless YOU make a simple statement of fact and then twist it to some doctrinal point

And oh by the way, The saved do have free will. If they don't No one will be saved, you me, no one..John 3 is all the support you need to prove this, But I have more passages.

Wow! You really suck at knowing peoples hearts! I told you to read how they define the P

No, You told me how YOU and YOURS define the p. You did not tell me how everyone else will define it..

I showed you how myself define it by using its own definition, and many other people I know define it

and yet you stubbornly cling to your own perception.

Well you have not given me any reason to change it.

Once again , you can't see the twig in someone elses eye for the log in your own.

lol. You cant see the log in your eye..

Have the last word. If you are not willing to defend your accusations and claims against others with Scripture (and you haven't) , I do not wish to fight your own belief system.

Your not fighting mine, Your fighting yours

once again this conversation started when you said YOU could defend the 5 points of tulip with scripture.

we were never discussing my view.

But see what you did, You could not defend your own stance, so you attack mine, when we were not even talking about mine.

lol. What a joke.

and before you keep trying to hide. here is the beginning of this discussion

Straining at gnats while swallowing camels. You are so hung up on teh labels you cannot see the truth behind the five points because of a mere label.

God inspired the five points as Scripture elucidates them

Jesus inspired the apostles to write the verses from which the five points are derived


The NT liatsa teh verses from which the five points are drawn.

You lose every time.
Paul the Apostle was used by god to write down what Calvin would organize from Scripture as the five points

This was the discussion, thgat YOU could prove the 5 points via scripture.

1. You failed
2. My view was never part of the actual discussion.

so it is YOU who lost this time..

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I was refuting your points, I want not trying to share mine..

I did not accuse. I showed proof..

No you just gave you ropinion. to refute my points requires Scripture which you lack in your posts.

This was the discussion, thgat YOU could prove the 5 points via scripture.

1. You failed
2. My view was never part of the actual discussion.

so it is YOU who lost this time..

I have in this thread and many others. I have given numerous Scriptures that prove the 5 points are biblical. all you do is say no they are not and then refuse to support your answer with Scripture. Y9u have not refuted the five points in any posts here with anything other than conjecture and opinion.

 

[GodsGrace]

"as it is written: 'There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God.'" (Rom 3:10-11)

"You were dead through the trespasses and sins...But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:1, 4-5)

"Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes." (John 5:21)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love." (Eph 1:3-4)

"God, who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2Tim 1:9)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13)

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8)

"Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son." (Acts 20:28)

"And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation," (Rev 5:9)

"Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father" (Gal 1:4)

"...for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:13)

"A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul." (Acts 16:14)

"...and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom 9:23-24)

"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)

"Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God." (Rom 5:9)

"For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 8:38-39)

"But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one." (2Thess 3:3)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1Pet 1:3-5)

If you sincerely and honestly believe those Scriptures, you ARE a Calvinist! If you deny those clear statements of Scripture, what are you?
When you hear/read people use "all", "every" & "world" etc. to say it means all individuals: ask them to show why those words mean that in the context. Look the words up in a dictionary and see if that is automatically the meaning of those words.

Arthur,
In Calvinism THERE IS NO GOSPEL.

If you THINK there is, then please explain to us WHAT THE GOOD NEWS IS....

Thanks.

 

[Behold]

I have in this thread and many others. I have given numerous Scriptures that prove the 5 points are biblical.

Deceived Calvinists believe Calvinism.

Christians who understand John 3:16 and 2 Corinthians 5:19 have another view, that favors God, whereas Calvin denies The Cross and spits on God's Grace, who is JESUS Himself.

Keep in mind that Calvin Denies John 3:16, and that Calvinism teaches that Jesus didnt ""die for the sin of the world, or for sinners",, as Calvin teaches that Jesus The Christ only died for what Calvin defines as His demonic idea of : "the elect".

 

[GISMYS_7]

Calvinism=Great error ---ALL are called but only the people that believe and answer are Chosen

 

[Behold]

God chose the born again "IN Christ"..

This does not mean that God chooses us to become "in Christ", .. .and we have no choice.

It means that before you were born... God knew who is going to TRUST IN CHRIST.... after Jesus was RISEN from Dead....to then become "IN CHRIST". "by FAITH".

So, this "Fore-knowing".... that is God's Foreknowledge, is to KNOW who is going to be "IN CHRIST", which is why they are called the "chosen".

John the devil Calvin, and the TULIP Heads, have twisted God's Foreknowledge, into God pre-destined, and that is the core ROT of Satanic Calvinism Theology.

Reader, CHRISTianity is built on FAITH.

Faith that God is Real.
Faith that Christ is Risen.

And God does not cause you to BELIEVE in those....>>He requires that you do.. or else you are under the Wrath of God... for your UNBELIEF.......that is YOURS..........not God's.

Hell is filled with people who went there, not because God didnt pre-destine them to believe, but because they had all their LIFE to believe, and wouldn't. = UNBELIEVERS... and that is on THEM.. as they chose it.

"for is we sin WILLFULLY, there remains no more SACRIFICE"..

See that? That means if you chose to DIE in unbelief, then you chose WILLFULLY to reject the only SACRIFICE for your SIN, who is JESUS.

You will die and go to HELL for that FREE WILL choice., = and thousands did today.

Dont be one of them, waiting to go, reader.

John 3:36

Calvin, and the fools who Idolize Him... changed God's Requirement of FAITH in Christ..... into God "pre-destined you", as if you have no FREE WILL to BELIEVE.

Reader,
do not READ John Calvin's Teachings, or the later revisions...... as these "doctrines of devils'... will take over your mind and blind it for life, against the Grace of God, and the correct understanding of The Cross of Christ....and Real FAITH.., So, do not listen to those who have the Galatians 1:8 curse on them, = that is a mental issue, and what the NT refers to as a "STRONGHOLD"...mental issue that Calvin causes in his DISCIPLES.
He'll do it to you, Reader, if you give Calvin or His Disciples your Open Mind.
Do NOT do it. !

 

[Augustin56]

Says the one who takes whatever he is told as gospel truth.

don’t attack my understanding when you do not even have your own understanding..

Nope. This is not true.

Paul went to peter james and John who were heads of the church in Jerusalem

Jesus never sent any of the disciples out on their own. And Paul never went out on his own. There is a reason for this.. The catholic churhc is a great reason, among many other churches who only have one leader which no one can hold accountable..


I have no religion. I point to Jesus not my self

I claim no authority. Dude, You need to stop. Like many catholics, you can not actually discuss scripture so you just attack anyone who does not agree with you.. If thats what you’re going to do. Go back to your church and live in peace.

Nope. I test the spirit. If I get it wrong, it’s on me, If I trust a church leader (which i did for many years) and I get it wrong. Its again on me.

God will hold me accountable. Just like he will hold you accountable. You want to follow blindly, feel free. Count me out.

I don't need my own personal interpretation of Scripture. I use the interpretation of the Church that wrote the New Testament and compiled the Bible to tell me. Scripture itself warns against personal interpretation. See 2 Peter 1:20 - "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation" And, yet, this is what all Protestantism is based upon. Some individual's personal interpretation of Scripture. If there were any credibilty to this approach, besides Scripture saying there isn't, there would be ONE Protestant denomination with everyone interpreting Scripture exactly the same. Not tens of thousands of man-made, doctrinally contradicting denominations. Jesus didn't write a book to spread His truths. He founded a (ONE) Church to do so. Historically, there was but one Church for the first 1000 years of Christianity, the Catholic Church. The Orthodox splintered off in 1054 A.D. and Protestantism didn't begin until 1517 A.D., WAY long after the fact. And it has continually splintered ever since.

 

[Augustin56]

No you just gave you ropinion. to refute my points requires Scripture which you lack in your posts.

I have in this thread and many others. I have given numerous Scriptures that prove the 5 points are biblical. all you do is say no they are not and then refuse to support your answer with Scripture. Y9u have not refuted the five points in any posts here with anything other than conjecture and opinion.

Roland, you clearly haven't read nearly enough Scripture. 2 Peter 1:20 warns against personal interpretation of Scripture. 2 Peter 1:20 "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation" The only authoritative interpretation of Scripture is by the Catholic Church, which wrote the New Testament and compiled the Bible. Authority is given, not taken. Christ gave His Church the authority to teach and preach.