CALVINISM IS SIMPLY THE GOSPEL BELIEVED

[Arthur81]

"as it is written: 'There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God.'" (Rom 3:10-11)

"You were dead through the trespasses and sins...But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:1, 4-5)

"Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes." (John 5:21)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love." (Eph 1:3-4)

"God, who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2Tim 1:9)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13)

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8)

"Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son." (Acts 20:28)

"And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation," (Rev 5:9)

"Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father" (Gal 1:4)

"...for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:13)

"A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul." (Acts 16:14)

"...and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom 9:23-24)

"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)

"Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God." (Rom 5:9)

"For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 8:38-39)

"But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one." (2Thess 3:3)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1Pet 1:3-5)

If you sincerely and honestly believe those Scriptures, you ARE a Calvinist! If you deny those clear statements of Scripture, what are you?
When you hear/read people use "all", "every" & "world" etc. to say it means all individuals: ask them to show why those words mean that in the context. Look the words up in a dictionary and see if that is automatically the meaning of those words.

 

[Augustin56]

Calvinism is just Calvin's personal interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Arthur81]

Calvinism is just Calvin's personal interpretation of Scripture.

And that is just your personal opinion.... everyone has one...

 

[Augustin56]

And that is just your personal opinion.... everyone has one...

True. But there are two choices, as I see it. One can either believe what the writers of the Bible, inspired by God, believe it means, or one can believe whatever one personally wants it to mean. Anything that varies from the original interpretation of God's Word is personal interpretation. St. Peter in 2 Peter 1:20-21 warns against personal interpretation. Personal interpretation is the reason why we have tens of thousands of doctrinally contradicting, man-made Protestant denominations today...and counting. That cannot be the grounding of the complete truths that Christ gave mankind.

 

[Arthur81]

True. But there are two choices, as I see it. One can either believe what the writers of the Bible, inspired by God, believe it means, or one can believe whatever one personally wants it to mean. Anything that varies from the original interpretation of God's Word is personal interpretation. St. Peter in 2 Peter 1:20-21 warns against personal interpretation. Personal interpretation is the reason why we have tens of thousands of doctrinally contradicting, man-made Protestant denominations today...and counting. That cannot be the grounding of the complete truths that Christ gave mankind.

"Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (1Cor 4:6 ERV)

"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." (1Cor 4:6 KJV)

In my OP, did I give anything more than the Scriptures? Did I interpret or make a comment other than the pointing out various statements in the verses?

I did not go beyond the Scriptures, and I did not think of ANY man above the Scriptures.

 

[Randy Kluth]

"as it is written: 'There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God.'" (Rom 3:10-11)

"You were dead through the trespasses and sins...But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:1, 4-5)

"Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes." (John 5:21)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love." (Eph 1:3-4)

"God, who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2Tim 1:9)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13)

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8)

"Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son." (Acts 20:28)

"And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation," (Rev 5:9)

"Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father" (Gal 1:4)

"...for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:13)

"A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul." (Acts 16:14)

"...and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom 9:23-24)

"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)

"Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God." (Rom 5:9)

"For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 8:38-39)

"But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one." (2Thess 3:3)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1Pet 1:3-5)

If you sincerely and honestly believe those Scriptures, you ARE a Calvinist! If you deny those clear statements of Scripture, what are you?
When you hear/read people use "all", "every" & "world" etc. to say it means all individuals: ask them to show why those words mean that in the context. Look the words up in a dictionary and see if that is automatically the meaning of those words.

Thank you brother. I may or may not believe exactly as you, but I'm definitely more on the side of Calvin than against him. However, I will briefly explain how I'm more on the side of Free Will than he is, just as I think Melanchthon was more on the side of Free Will than Luther was.

The idea that we were called to Salvation and to righteousness before the foundation of the world is simply a statement that Christ preexisted the world as the Word of God and was the original blueprint for human righteousness. He was the original calling of God for men to obtain Eternal Life. He was the Image of God in which and for which Man was created.

And so, the fact God had a blueprint for human righteousness even before he was created simply means that God's plan prior to creation was to create mankind in His image and likeness. Christ was the preexistent Word of God for which Man was to exist.

But having departed from the path of this fulfillment God determined, in advance, certain consequences as a result of Man's Fall. The things men chose to do outside of the Word of God would produce children of rebellion, who cling to their independence from God and determine to do things of their own will, contrary to God's will. They inevitably produce more rebellion, conceiving people who naturally are drawn to the very rebellion that conceived them.

Others are the product of Grace, indicating that even in their rebellion Mankind did not fully depart from God's Word, and would wish to be forgiven for their error. They inevitably produce people who long for mercy and choose to succeed in following after God's Word, contrary to their own fallen nature.

What children follow after their rebellious nature and what children seek after mercy is an ongoing process since people continue to live out their lives, whether obeying God's Word or rebelling against it. One thing is certain: God has determined that what people choose to do in rebellion will result in children who pursue that rebellion, whereas God cannot be defeated--there will always be children to fulfill God's original intention of having children who follow after Him and His ways.

 

[Arthur81]

Thank you brother. I may or may not believe exactly as you, but I'm definitely more on the side of Calvin than against him. However, I will briefly explain how I'm more on the side of Free Will than he is, just as I think Melanchthon was more on the side of Free Will than Luther was.

The idea that we were called to Salvation and to righteousness before the foundation of the world is simply a statement that Christ preexisted the world as the Word of God and was the original blueprint for human righteousness. He was the original calling of God for men to obtain Eternal Life. He was the Image of God in which and for which Man was created.

And so, the fact God had a blueprint for human righteousness even before he was created simply means that God's plan prior to creation was to create mankind in His image and likeness. Christ was the preexistent Word of God for which Man was to exist.

But having departed from the path of this fulfillment God determined, in advance, certain consequences as a result of Man's Fall. The things men chose to do outside of the Word of God would produce children of rebellion, who cling to their independence from God and determine to do things of their own will, contrary to God's will. They inevitably produce more rebellion, conceiving people who naturally are drawn to the very rebellion that conceived them.

Others are the product of Grace, indicating that even in their rebellion Mankind did not fully depart from God's Word, and would wish to be forgiven for their error. They inevitably produce people who long for mercy and choose to succeed in following after God's Word, contrary to their own fallen nature.

What children follow after their rebellious nature and what children seek after mercy is an ongoing process since people continue to live out their lives, whether obeying God's Word or rebelling against it. One thing is certain: God has determined that what people choose to do in rebellion will result in children who pursue that rebellion, whereas God cannot be defeated--there will always be children to fulfill God's original intention of having children who follow after Him and His ways.

I do not get into the mystical or philosophical discussions which try to read the mind of God.

"O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?'” (Rom 11:33-34 NRSV)

I find trying to read God's mind is like the fruitless discussions about supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism. I take the words of God seriously in His statement:

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law." (Deut 29:29 NRSV)

I just take the word of God as it is written and limit and content myself with that. This is one reason I began to move away from systematic theology into a more Bible theology.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

lol

Calvin has almost a true gospel.

they believe in eternal security amen.

however. they boast that God chose them, and not others, while telling anyone who does not agree with them, they are boasting of saving themselves.

Even in your own passages.

We who were dead, have been made alive, by grace we have been saved.

Just one example of one passage taken out of context which taken by itself. would likely support calvinism.

but then, what does it mean to be saved by grace.

eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

See, Grace is the means of salvation, Amen, Calvin is correct here

But it is only THROUGH FAITH that this grace is applied. Calvin is dead wrong here

Calvin also states our faith is our work. but not here, Paul seperates faith from works..

so calvinism may be close. but no cigar.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I do not get into the mystical or philosophical discussions which try to read the mind of God.

"O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?'” (Rom 11:33-34 NRSV)

I find trying to read God's mind is like the fruitless discussions about supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism. I take the words of God seriously in His statement:

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law." (Deut 29:29 NRSV)

I just take the word of God as it is written and limit and content myself with that. This is one reason I began to move away from systematic theology into a more Bible theology.

Yes, actually that is what I'm doing. I'm treating the incomprehensible mysteries of God with what the word of God says, that He has anticipated both the falling and those being saved--they are Predestined! And it is the result of bad trees bearing bad fruit, and sheep begetting sheep. Thank you--it is a mystery, but I can't help thinking about it. :)

 

[Arthur81]

lol

Calvin has almost a true gospel.

they believe in eternal security amen.

however. they boast that God chose them, and not others, while telling anyone who does not agree with them, they are boasting of saving themselves.

Even in your own passages.

We who were dead, have been made alive, by grace we have been saved.

Just one example of one passage taken out of context which taken by itself. would likely support calvinism.

but then, what does it mean to be saved by grace.

eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

See, Grace is the means of salvation, Amen, Calvin is correct here

But it is only THROUGH FAITH that this grace is applied. Calvin is dead wrong here

Calvin also states our faith is our work. but not here, Paul seperates faith from works..

so calvinism may be close. but no cigar.

"The sincere Calvinists in the pew that I've known do not boast over their sovereign election by God. We are greatly humbled, and in deep reflection are so very conscious of our own sinfulness, why would God choose me? I feel so undeserving of God's love that I understand David's thinking of himself as a 'worm', and I feel the same."

EG, you wrote: "Calvin has almost a true gospel", "Calvin is correct here", "Calvin also states our faith is our work". Please give those references out of the writings of Calvin so we know what you are talking about. When you attribute thoughts or words to Calvin, give us the reference, please.

John Calvin in his commentary on Ephesians 2:8 -

"8.For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

Ought we not then to be silent about free-will, and good intentions, and fancied preparations, and merits, and satisfactions? There is none of these which does not claim a share of praise in the salvation of men; so that the praise of grace would not, as Paul shews, remain undiminished. When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation."

Ephesians 2 - Calvin's Commentary on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Ephesians 2, Calvin's Commentary on the Bible, John Calvin's Commentaries offer Christians profound insights by blending careful analysis of original texts with historical context.

www.studylight.org

Yes, Paul makes clear in distinguishing faith from works. But in another context Jesus said:

"Then they said to him, 'What must we do to perform the works of God?' Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.'” (John 6:28-29 NRSV)

The question is about man performing works. Jesus replies that "this is the work of God, that you believe..."

Has Jesus said that man works by believing? Or does He mean that our very believing is a gift and work of God?

 

[Randy Kluth]

"The sincere Calvinists in the pew that I've known do not boast over their sovereign election by God. We are greatly humbled, and in deep reflection are so very conscious of our own sinfulness, why would God choose me? I feel so undeserving of God's love that I understand David's thinking of himself as a 'worm', and I feel the same."

EG, you wrote: "Calvin has almost a true gospel", "Calvin is correct here", "Calvin also states our faith is our work". Please give those references out of the writings of Calvin so we know what you are talking about. When you attribute thoughts or words to Calvin, give us the reference, please.

John Calvin in his commentary on Ephesians 2:8 -

"8.For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

Ought we not then to be silent about free-will, and good intentions, and fancied preparations, and merits, and satisfactions? There is none of these which does not claim a share of praise in the salvation of men; so that the praise of grace would not, as Paul shews, remain undiminished. When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation."

Faith is simply attributing to God His necessary role in our Salvation. It is not, however, the denial of any human work in the act of opting for it.

Our "work" should not be defined only as "earning Salvation." Rather, work is the part that Man plays in choosing to operate with God so that his atonement applies to us by our choice to accept it.

It is ludicrous to say that Man's role is purely to "believe." Clearly, we are told that belief involves operating together with God's Grace so that even though He provided the atonement we enable it to operate through our will and action.

Ephesians 2 - Calvin's Commentary on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Ephesians 2, Calvin's Commentary on the Bible, John Calvin's Commentaries offer Christians profound insights by blending careful analysis of original texts with historical context.

www.studylight.org

Yes, Paul makes clear in distinguishing faith from works. But in another context Jesus said:

"Then they said to him, 'What must we do to perform the works of God?' Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.'” (John 6:28-29 NRSV)

The question is about man performing works. Jesus replies that "this is the work of God, that you believe..."

Has Jesus said that man works by believing? Or does He mean that our very believing is a gift and work of God?

God made Man with a will, having the notion that Man choose to operate by His Word. The Fall does not preclude Man from continuing to operate his will, and he can still choose to accept God's Word as the basis for his good works.

Good works without God's Word, on the other hand, is impossible. It is essential whether a man believes in it or not, whether he knows it or not. Even unsaved people can do good when they unconsciously work together with the word of God in their conscience.

Good works that last for eternity is impossible without Christ's atonement. We should understand both the need for our will and for our dependency on God's Word in order to obtain Eternal Life. We must choose to accept Christ, and in doing so, we choose to live by Christ.

 

[BlessedPeace]

"as it is written: 'There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God.'" (Rom 3:10-11)

"You were dead through the trespasses and sins...But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:1, 4-5)

"Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes." (John 5:21)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love." (Eph 1:3-4)

"God, who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2Tim 1:9)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13)

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8)

"Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son." (Acts 20:28)

"And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation," (Rev 5:9)

"Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father" (Gal 1:4)

"...for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:13)

"A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul." (Acts 16:14)

"...and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom 9:23-24)

"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)

"Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God." (Rom 5:9)

"For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 8:38-39)

"But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one." (2Thess 3:3)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1Pet 1:3-5)

If you sincerely and honestly believe those Scriptures, you ARE a Calvinist! If you deny those clear statements of Scripture, what are you?
When you hear/read people use "all", "every" & "world" etc. to say it means all individuals: ask them to show why those words mean that in the context. Look the words up in a dictionary and see if that is automatically the meaning of those words.

There are those who insist God is Omniscient, Sovereign, Omnipresent,and the Bible is His infallible word.

Until it isn't.

Now,it's up to us who do know the Gospel of Yeshua to realize it is we who must face the truth in His word.

God is The Word.

God tells us what we witness in these forums. And they will say this of us too of course. However, the Gospel proves eternal. Opinion doesn't change it.

God says the natural mind can't understand the things of God.
His Word.

Only when His Holy Spirit enters us by His will and choice are we able to understand the things of God.

The natural mind can't save us. It's foolishness to the natural mind to think we need saving.

No one
Comes to
Christ,Salvation,
Unless God/Christ calls them

And of those He calls, He shall lose none. No one will leave His grace, Salvation.
Because He called whom He chose to Save.


Before the foundation of the world.


That's not Calvinism,or all those men who taught the same thing long before.


That's God.

God is Sovereign and Omniscient but he doesn't predestine the world?

Please!

58 Bible verses about Predestination

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

Romans 8.

 

[Arthur81]

Yes, actually that is what I'm doing. I'm treating the incomprehensible mysteries of God with what the word of God says, that He has anticipated both the falling and those being saved--they are Predestined! And it is the result of bad trees bearing bad fruit, and sheep begetting sheep. Thank you--it is a mystery, but I can't help thinking about it. :)

Randy, maybe it is just my IQ level, but your writings come across as convoluted rambling. For instance, you mention "the incomprehensible mysteries of God" and connect that to "what the word of God says". What word of God? What particular verses and statements of scripture do you mean? Without the "word of God" that you are referring to, I have no idea what you mean by the following:

"...that He has anticipated both the falling and those being saved--they are Predestined!..."

"anticipated"??? Then do you mean "double predestination", both the falling and those being saved?

What are you talking about "sheep begetting sheep"? Are you talking about Paul's statement:

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." (1Cor 7:14 KJV)

I don't believe it is profitable to anyone for me to continue in an attempt answering your writings.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, maybe it is just my IQ level, but your writings come across as convoluted rambling.

;) I have no problem with your "IQ level!" You just want to define the questions being asked so that the answers match the questions.

For instance, you mention "the incomprehensible mysteries of God" and connect that to "what the word of God says". What word of God? What particular verses and statements of scripture do you mean?

I thought I was being pretty clear about what "kinds" of verses I meant by the [written] "Word of God." I gave you a couple of abbreviated Scripture quotations, involving "good trees" (Matt 7) and "sheep" (John 10).

Without the "word of God" that you are referring to, I have no idea what you mean by the following:

"...that He has anticipated both the falling and those being saved--they are Predestined!..."

Yes, I would've gone into more depth except that you seemed disinclined to pursue the "mysteries of God." But if you wish to pursue it I can explain in more detail?

What is being Predestined is not exclusive of the role Man plays out in his existence. The "Predestined" part comes with the blueprint that preceded Creation. In that plan, God constructed an image of Himself by which Man was to be created. As such, "God created Man in His image, after His own likeness."

So the blueprint for Man's ability to work with the Word of God and in the Spirit of God was there before he was even created. It was Predestined from the foundation of the world, and even before.

None of this has a thing to do with excluding Man's ability to work with God's Word to do good or to accept the redemption Christ bought him.

The work we cannot do, however, is the work of atonement--we can only receive it. The terms of accepting that redemption, however, means that a man freely chooses to accept the proper conditions for working, which is to always cooperate with God's Word.

This is not just the written word of God, but more, the spoken word of God. God always speaks to our conscience because He created us in His image, after His likeness. This is the Word of God I refer to.

"anticipated"??? Then do you mean "double predestination", both the falling and those being saved?

The problem I have with double predestination is that it is nebulous and involving the very "mysteries" you wish to avoid. Does God predetermine that Man should choose to Fall or to reject Salvation? Absolutely not. But He did predetermine the program by which a chain of consequences follow, in which God foresees who will choose to cooperate with His Word and who will not.

That is where things become sketchy. What is the basis of human choice? I think it involves the chain of rebellious choices. God knew Esau would be born to choose against His word.

What are you talking about "sheep begetting sheep"? Are you talking about Paul's statement:

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." (1Cor 7:14 KJV)

No, these are different passages. For the sake of the children, a person should live in Christ. If he or she is married to a pagan upon conversion, an opportunity for Salvation should be extended for the pagan spouse. Anything less may be a poor witness of God's love to the children. And it may not be the loving thing to do as a witness to the spouse.

Jesus said a good tree bears good fruit. Similarly, sheep beget sheep. And sheep were likened by Christ to the Saved, as I see it.

I don't believe it is profitable to anyone for me to continue in an attempt answering your writings.

You know what's best for you. Thanks for indulging me. I find the subject interesting and always have.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There are those who insist God is Omniscient, Sovereign, Omnipresent,and the Bible is His infallible word.

Until it isn't.

Now,it's up to us who do know the Gospel of Yeshua to realize it is we who must face the truth in His word.

God is The Word.

God tells us what we witness in these forums. And they will say this of us too of course. However, the Gospel proves eternal. Opinion doesn't change it.

God says the natural mind can't understand the things of God.
His Word.

Only when His Holy Spirit enters us by His will and choice are we able to understand the things of God.

The natural mind can't save us. It's foolishness to the natural mind to think we need saving.

No one
Comes to
Christ,Salvation,
Unless God/Christ calls them

And if those He calls, He shall lose none. No one will leave His grace, Salvation.
Because He called whom He chose to Save.


Before the foundation of the world.


That's not Calvinism,or all those men who taught the same thing long before.


That's God.

God is Sovereign and Omniscient but he doesn't predestine the world?

Please!

58 Bible verses about Predestination

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

Romans 8.

He still died for the WORLD.. that whoever in faith looks up to the cross. will never perish, but will live forever.

For it is by grace we have been saved THROUGH FAITH

Those are gods sovereign words and his will

when we change the words. ignore the words or add to the words. we remove Gods soverign will.. and make a mockery of him

 

[Randy Kluth]

I constantly hear that Salvation comes by "faith" alone, when there is no real definition of "faith." So by default the listener or reader falls back on a definition of "faith" that simply means "belief."

But belief in what? Belief that God exists?

Well here is the problem. Biblical faith involves much more than simply believing God exists. James made that clear when he said even devils believe God exists. That is not the question!

So faith in what? It always fall back upon belief in God's word, whether written or spoken to our conscience. It is belief in God's promises, etc., which are not vague but clearly given with oaths attached just for clarity.

When we are saved by faith, we are saved because we believe in God's formula for Salvation, which is acceptance, through Christ, of living by the word of God. We cannot do this in terms of Eternal Life unless it is done by acknowledgement of Christ because accepting him is accepting the whole counsel of God in the matter of our Eternal Salvation.

Accepting him is accepting God's basis for Salvation, which involves not just righteousness but *exclusively* God's righteousness, and nothing from ourselves. Accepting Christ is accepting the reality of anything we do apart from God's word was put to death on the cross. What we do in Christ is able to rise from the dead, or never die.

So faith is not an entity in itself, as if some kind of vague "faith in something" saves. No, it is the operation of our deeds, willfully, in accordance with God's word by accepting Christ as the basis for this.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So faith is not an entity in itself, as if some kind of vague "faith in something" saves. No, it is the operation of our deeds, willfully, in accordance with God's word by accepting Christ as the basis for this.

This is legalistic, it looks to self and not God.

what is faith?

Faith is an assurance of a trust that the person who we trust is trustworthy, that he will do what he says.

In the gospel. Faith is an assurance that God will save us eternally based on his sons sacrifice. And that we who trust him actually trust that he will keep his word. Not based on us, but on him.

Now, Like we are shown with Abraham, Faith works in other areas also. Abraham was assured, or trusted that God would raise his son from the dead (Because God made a promise he would have children and a nation would come from that child) and his faith caused him to work.

True faith causes us to work, it is not the result of work.

 

[Augustin56]

And that is just your personal opinion.... everyone has one...

If Calvin had the interpretation intended by the authors, he would have remained Catholic and held to the interpretation intended by those authors. The fact that he changed the interpretation indicates that he was holding to his own personal interpretation, not that of the authors of Scripture. The Bible is Catholic book, and was so long, long before Protestantism arose.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If Calvin had the interpretation intended by the authors, he would have remained Catholic and held to the interpretation intended by those authors. The fact that he changed the interpretation indicates that he was holding to his own personal interpretation, not that of the authors of Scripture. The Bible is Catholic book, and was so long, long before Protestantism arose.

lol

The bible is the word of God. Not a catholic book

what is it about Catholics that they boast so much of their church. made by the hands of men.

They do not even follow the bible. I have been to many a catholic mass, and hear very little bible. and when I hear the bible. I just heard it read. Not discussed.

 

[Augustin56]

lol

The bible is the word of God. Not a catholic book

what is it about Catholics that they boast so much of their church. made by the hands of men.

They do not even follow the bible. I have been to many a catholic mass, and hear very little bible. and when I hear the bible. I just heard it read. Not discussed.

LOL The New Testament was written by Catholics. All the Apostles and the Early Church were Catholic. There was no other Church. The Orthodox splintered off in 1054 A.D. and Protestantism didn't begin until the 16th century, begun by rogue Catholics. It was the Catholic Church that decided definitively what books belonged in the New Testament when they compiled it in the late 4th century. Before that, there was no Bible with Old and New Testament under one cover.