CALVINISM IS SIMPLY THE GOSPEL BELIEVED

[Arthur81]

My OP gave the answer to this argument of what church is authentic and true. Stick to the stated beliefs and practice given to us in the New Covenant Scriptures.

"Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (1Cor 4:6 ERV)

Jesus...."teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." (Matt 28:20 ERV)

Do you see the doctrine or practice explicitly directed in the Scripture, or is it read into it?
Does it agree in detail to how Jesus' Apostles taught the New Covenant doctrines?

Sticking to that keeps you safe from man's imaginative ideas and inventions that can be soul damning!

 

[BlessedPeace]

If Calvin had the interpretation intended by the authors, he would have remained Catholic and held to the interpretation intended by those authors. The fact that he changed the interpretation indicates that he was holding to his own personal interpretation, not that of the authors of Scripture. The Bible is Catholic book, and was so long, long before Protestantism arose.

And the reason Protest arose is because the Catholic Church for so long, had misconstrued the truth of God in Christ.

Putting men in offices of reverence. Inventing rites Yeshua never taught, and necromancy included. Because Yeshua never said to harvest body parts of the dead,nor preserve under glass the full body of their dead,and Revere them as "holy relics".

Thank you GOD! For that time and place when your Holy Spirit led Martin Luther to stand against falsehood.

And here we are.

In yet another thread in the same vein as those before,doing it again.

When I was a member of a different forum the pop-up ads were ridiculous. Banner ad's, block ad's. From the homepage and onward,they were impossible to escape.

There, the Moderators had sock accounts so to participate in discussions without members feeling insecure in sharing a personal opinion with a moderator who posts under that title.

When the new owner arrived,those socks would open and further hot topic threads for the express purpose of generating advertising revenue from banner, pop-up and block ad's.

Conflict paid! Big!

Here,hot topic threads cost.
We repeat ourselves constantly hoping to penetrate obstinence.
That's silly.

God said so there too.

The eternal Gospel of Eternal Life Salvation is simple and irrevocable.
God said so.
Beware those who invoke his name while contradicting his clear words.

Synopsis:

Yeshua-God said:
No one comes to Him unless He,the Father,calls them. And of all He calls he shall in no wise cast out and shall lose no one.

We are not Saved but by the free irrevocable grace of God. We do not save ourselves,so we cannot boast that we do.

The Elect of God,those whom He chose before the foundation,creation,of the world,have our names already written in God's Lambs Book of life that was written before the creation, foundation,of the world.

Those whose names are not found there shall be thrown in the lake of fire.

We do not work to keep what God blessed us with. Our good works,deeds,behaviors,are a result,the fruit,of His irrevocable gift of Salvation.

Elected by God to receive His irrevocable free ,because Yeshuas blood paid our sin debt, grace filled gift of eternal life through Salvation.

That's Good News.
That's God's covenant.


Don't let non-elect,or Trolls,cost us more time arguing against what else Yeshua-God told us.

These things? Are,as we read here among many,are foolishness to those natural minds. That only change so to understand the things of God once God,Holy Spirit,enters into us and opens our consciousness so to understand the things of God.

We won't change minds that are narrow ,worldly,and in error.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

(Slight aside: It's "You're" not "Your." "Your" is a possessive pronoun. "You're" is a cotraction for "You are.")

You cannot follow God unless you follow the Church He founded. Otherwise, you are making yourself your own god, doing what you want and what you want to believe vs. what He wants and wants you to believe. You shut yourself out of five of the seven Sacraments Christ gave us to help us get to heaven, the most important of which is the Eucharist, which is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, Himself. Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink." John 6:53-55.

Since Protestantism has lost the sacrament of Holy Orders, it has no priests. Having no priests who can consecrate the Eucharist means they have no Eucharist. No Eucharist, no compliance with John 6:53-55.

All you have is personal interpretation of Scripture, which St. Peter warns against in 2 Peter 1:20-21.

Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

The Jews made the same argument t. Those who followed then are lost

If I was you. I would open your eyes and seek truth

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, it's not legalistic. Faith includes works, as James said.
James 2.20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

If you read my post you would see I agreed with this. It includes works. My rejection is that works are part of salvation saying it is is legalism

Legalism is the attempt to be good apart from God's Word, to get Saved apart from Christ and his Word.

No. Legalism is trying to earn salvation apart from God through your own works. The Jews and circumcision many in the church and baptism. Any work of righteousness which you do doing it to earn and or maintain your saved state is legalism

I'm suggesting that false faith puts itself out there as a mind-set, instead of as an active choice to participate with and partner with God's Word via the embrace of Christ's atonement.

It is a minset

If I trust god and receive his gift as the tax collector did I will go him justified forever

If I pump my chest like the tax collector praising god for all my works while judging the tax collector who trusted in God. Then I will not

1st, we embrace Christ, which is the total will of God, providing us with Eternal Salvation.

Yea in doing this we are eternal saved. Born again made a child of God sealed by the spirit and we have not yet done one work (nor could we up till this time)

And then, having done that we follow up by exercising our faith in God's Word, which is what Christ died to give us eternally.

This is called sanctification. Which has no bearing on our eternal salvation

Just "belief" does not save.

No it is faith that saves. I agree mere belief does not save

It is the object of our faith, which is Christ's Word, that saves us and enables us to do good, be good, and have our good deeds follow us.

Yes but our good deeds will not save us or keep us saved. That’s legalism as many embrace

Faith is only the opposite of Works if we are talking about empty, unspiritual faith that does not have Christ and his Word as its object. Faith and Works are integrally related in God's Kingdom.

James said that faith does not exist it’s dead. It’s a claimed faith only and will never save because it does not trust it is not assured. It believes there is one God. Great. That will never save you

False Faith does *not* Save! True Faith determines to obtain Christ and to display Christ. In Hebrews 11, the faithful all display in their Works the Faith that is properly centered on God's Word.

They worked because they were saved not to get saved

If we adopt Protestantism as purely a dogmatism, an orthodoxy, with its own unique formula, creed, and litmus test, we will miss out on the excesses that are involved in its push without inspiration. If we wish to push a true orthodoxy, we have to do so in a spiritual way, and not as if it is a form of political activism. Think through your responses before you respond.

Protestantism, orthodoxy more Catholicism will save

Faith in those isms is
Not faith in God

"Faith" is not a thing that obtains for us Salvation apart from God's Word, apart from Christ. It is not the thing that Saves you.

Then Paul is a liar

It is Christ who died for you, who Saves you. Our Faith is the means of receiving that truth

Here you go amen

and operating in that truth. It is Works of Faith that operate properly in God's Kingdom, and not Works apart from God's Word. And it most certainly is *not* no Works at all!

Now has any true child if god said it us

Faith alone saved. But faith (true) is never alone

 

[Augustin56]

The Jews made the same argument t. Those who followed then are lost

If I was you. I would open your eyes and seek truth

If I were you (not "was"), I would take a class or two in philosophy and history. Although, to be honest, I'm not sure in this day where you can get your money's worth. Historically, there was but one Church for the first 1000 years of Christianity. The Catholic Church. The Orthodox splintered off in 1054 A.D. in the Great Schism, but they retained Apostolic Succession, and, therefore, all seven Sacraments instituted by Christ. Protestantism came along in the 16th century and has continually splintered into differing, contradictory denominations ever since. And you're claiming that Protestantism is the way to go? If so, which of the tens of thousands of man-made denominations do you claim has it right? And why? (If you answer because it agrees with your personal interpretation of Scripture, I'll have to mark that answer as wrong.)

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you read my post you would see I agreed with this. It includes works. My rejection is that works are part of salvation saying it is is legalism

I'm sorry if I don't understand your post. You would have to rephrase things.

But yes, Legalism is the attempt to Self-atone, or to obtain Salvation apart from Christ. But I personally use the term "Legalism" to describe not just "works to obtain Salvation for ourselves," but also any work we do in the name of God that is not truly of God.

"Do not take the Lord's name in vain." This is not "cussing," but rather, misrepresenting God in our words and deeds.

Many would claim they are doing things in the name of Christ, but if they are only doing their works nominally and not spiritually, then it isn't really being done through Christ and is a form of Legalism.

No. Legalism is trying to earn salvation apart from God through your own works. The Jews and circumcision many in the church and baptism.

I don't understand this statement??

Any work of righteousness which you do doing it to earn and or maintain your saved state is legalism

You don't think trying to do good apart from God's Word is Legalism? God's Word is the vehicle by which Christ *spiritually* enables us to be virtuous and do good!

I'm not here talking about God's Word in the sense of Scriptures, but rather, about God's impartation of Grace to enable us to cooperate with His will through our obedience. It is God's Word that enables us to do the things He asks of us.

Deut 30.11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Yea in doing this we are eternal saved. Born again made a child of God sealed by the spirit and we have not yet done one work (nor could we up till this time)

As I said, we cannot Self-atone. We cannot ourselves do the work of atoning for our own sins.

On the other hand, this does not mean that anything we choose to do by our will has been so contaminated that we cannot participate in obtaining Salvation by choosing to accept it and choosing to live by Christ, which clearly involves opting for the works of Christ. Clearly, people are excluded from the Kingdom of God when they choose to do works contrary to the works of Christ.

Rev 22.14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Just as those who reject Christ choose to do wicked works so those who choose Christ simultaneously are choosing to do the works of Christ.

This is called sanctification. Which has no bearing on our eternal salvation

As I just said, choosing Christ for Salvation is tantamount to choosing to do the works of Christ. So Salvation and Sanctification are two aspects of the same Salvation. Our Sanctification saves us through Grace just as our Salvation saves us through Grace. In both cases we are choosing to follow Christ, to do good works, while depending on the Grace of Christ to save us.

No it is faith that saves. I agree mere belief does not save

Faith that does not transform our lives is not true faith. So thank you--I agree. Mere belief does not save. Neither does belief in Christ save when it does not result in a transformed life. That would be what I call "Nominal Christianity."

Does our imperfect Christian Works save us? No--it is our choice to trust in Christ's Grace at the same time we choose to live in him that saves us. It does no good to just believe that he saved us if we do not simultaneously choose to live transformed lives.

Yes but our good deeds will not save us or keep us saved. That’s legalism as many embrace

James said that faith does not exist it’s dead. It’s a claimed faith only and will never save because it does not trust it is not assured. It believes there is one God. Great. That will never save you

They worked because they were saved not to get saved

Protestantism, orthodoxy more Catholicism will save

Faith in those isms is
Not faith in God

I don't understand some of what you're saying here, but yes--"Isms" won't save. Orthodoxies can be mere belief in or assent to propositions without putting yourself on the line, not having any real skin in the game.

Then Paul is a liar

Here you go amen

Now has any true child if god said it us

Faith alone saved. But faith (true) is never alone

I have a difficult time understanding you. But yes, I agree--true Faith is never alone. It must be accompanied by Deeds, as James said in his letter. The deeds do not save us, but the choice to do them while embracing Christ and his Grace does save us, by putting our dependency on Christ who alone saved us, or atoned for our sins.

A lot of the problem here is semantics. When we "get saved" by our choice, we are merely accepting Salvation, and not atoning for our own sins or bypassing Christ's Grace.

Christ is the one who atoned for our sins who we choose to embrace in our lives. So though we may "get Saved" by embracing Christ, it it ultimately Christ who alone "saved us."

Our will is an active participant in our Salvation in terms of obedience, but only a passive participant in terms of enabling us to obey. We are an active participant in terms of using our Will to accept Salvation, but only a passive participant in putting Christ's atonement into effect in our lives.

We are enabled by means of our creation to obey God's Word, or to exercise our will in response to God's Word. This is what we were made to do, to live in God's image, and to respond to God's word of command.

But it is God's Word that enables us to obey. Only he could forgive our sins. And even then only he can give us commands to enable us to do good works as a result of renewing his relationship with us by Grace. Oh my--difficult to say without sounding like a heretic! ;)

 

[BlessedPeace]

He still died for the WORLD.. that whoever in faith looks up to the cross. will never perish, but will live forever.

For it is by grace we have been saved THROUGH FAITH

Those are gods sovereign words and his will

when we change the words. ignore the words or add to the words. we remove Gods soverign will.. and make a mockery of him

I didn't change His words. Nor add to them.
You simply don't understand what is written in His word when it is right in front of you.

You change His words.You add too. And why?
You think someone can change God's Sovereign will!

Proving you also don't know what Sovereign means.

Your argument above makes no sense.
You can't see that.
And I told you why.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm sorry if I don't understand your post. You would have to rephrase things.

rephrase what

we are saved by faith alone, But faith is never alone. Its not that difficult.

But yes, Legalism is the attempt to Self-atone, or to obtain Salvation apart from Christ. But I personally use the term "Legalism" to describe not just "works to obtain Salvation for ourselves," but also any work we do in the name of God that is not truly of God.

I call that religion, Hey God, look at me, look how Great I am, or phariseeism

"Do not take the Lord's name in vain." This is not "cussing," but rather, misrepresenting God in our words and deeds.

Many would claim they are doing things in the name of Christ, but if they are only doing their works nominally and not spiritually, then it isn't really being done through Christ and is a form of Legalism.

I call this just sin.

I don't understand this statement??

You do not understand?

Maybe Paul will help

Romans 4:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

If you recieve salvation as a wage (something you work for) then you are not receiving it by Grace, but by works..

You work for a reward or a wage. A gift is already paid in full by the giver, we just recieve it (or reject it)

You don't think trying to do good apart from God's Word is Legalism?

Why would it be legalism? Unless I am trying to obey a set of rules of law (hence the term legalism)

God's Word is the vehicle by which Christ *spiritually* enables us to be virtuous and do good!

Actually, it is his Holy Spirit. His making us a new creation. and his loving us when enables us to love others and bear fruit.
Yes the word of God helps. But it does not enable us.

I'm not here talking about God's Word in the sense of Scriptures, but rather, about God's impartation of Grace to enable us to cooperate with His will through our obedience. It is God's Word that enables us to do the things He asks of us.

This is great, Unless your doing it to get saved, Stay saved or keep from losing salvation

Then it is legalism

Deut 30.11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

As I said, we cannot Self-atone. We cannot ourselves do the work of atoning for our own sins.

The cross is the only means of atonement

On the other hand, this does not mean that anything we choose to do by our will has been so contaminated that we cannot participate in obtaining Salvation by choosing to accept it and choosing to live by Christ,

This will not cause God to forgive one sin. This again is legalism.

which clearly involves opting for the works of Christ. Clearly, people are excluded from the Kingdom of God when they choose to do works contrary to the works of Christ.

Once again, This is legalism, Your trying to earn your salvation and forgiveness of sin by works. They denying you are doing it.. This is the danger of religious thinking. It does not even realise what it is doing. it states one thing, then contradicts this, by saying another. and stating both are true

Rev 22.14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Just as those who reject Christ choose to do wicked works so those who choose Christ simultaneously are choosing to do the works of Christ.

We do them because we ARE saved. not to stay saved

As I just said, choosing Christ for Salvation is tantamount to choosing to do the works of Christ.

No. This is law. You want to put yourself under law. You better be perfect..

So Salvation and Sanctification are two aspects of the same Salvation.

Wrong

Justification is salvation, while yes. God sets us apart as being in Christ.

But the rest of our lives will be God sanctifying us.. Not everyone will reach the same level of sanctification. Even Paul called the Corinthian church babes, new born. who should have grown up. believes are members of the body of Christ.

Our Sanctification saves us through Grace just as our Salvation saves us through Grace.

Nope. that is trying to add works and grace, and as I proved by the words of Paul. this is not true, it is not even possible.

Paul also in Galations 3. called people fools for thinking they start in the spirit (faith) and complete it in the flesh (works)

Again, You need to study the word.. Your trying to save yourself.. Let God save you.

In both cases we are choosing to follow Christ, to do good works, while depending on the Grace of Christ to save us.

But the works will never save you, Never make you more saved, Never make you less saved.

If it is if grace it is no longer works, otherwise Grace is no longer grace.

look at it this way, Grace and works are like oil and water, you can not mix them.

Faith that does not transform our lives is not true faith. So thank you--I agree. Mere belief does not save. Neither does belief in Christ save when it does not result in a transformed life. That would be what I call "Nominal Christianity."

I call this fake Christianity, because they are not even real Christians.

Does our imperfect Christian Works save us? No--it is our choice to trust in Christ's Grace at the same time we choose to live in him that saves us. It does no good to just believe that he saved us if we do not simultaneously choose to live transformed lives.

Your focused on works. Stop focusing on self and focus on God.
When you TRUST God with your eternity. because you have experienced his love. You will focus on God for other things as well. An in doing so. You will live changed lives

we love because he first loved us,,

I believe like Paul said, Being Confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you WILL COMPLETE it until the day of Christ.

I am dumbfounded at the amount of people who are not confident, who think that they must complete that work themselves or they will not ever make it..

I don't understand some of what you're saying here, but yes--"Isms" won't save. Orthodoxies can be mere belief in or assent to propositions without putting yourself on the line, not having any real skin in the game.

I have a difficult time understanding you. But yes, I agree--true Faith is never alone. It must be accompanied by Deeds,

Here your legalistic mindset is showing

Take the word MUST out (this points to you)

replace it with the word WILL (this points to Christ)

When you point to self. your taking your eye off of God.. that is the problem with religion. It points to self.

to long so have to split up

 

[Eternally Grateful]

as James said in his letter. The deeds do not save us, but the choice to do them while embracing Christ and his Grace does save us, by putting our dependency on Christ who alone saved us, or atoned for our sins.

No, James did not say this, He said we prove to our self that our faith is real by our actions.
James tells us to test our faith. He tells us to make sure our faith is real. He challenges us. If we CLAIM to have faith but have no work. can THAT CLAIMED FAITH save us.

the answer is no

how do WE know we have real faith? He used Abraham as an example.. I can not look to you and test your faith. I do not know if your works are of God or if they are of self. And if you do not appear to be working, I can not test to see if you have no works at all. Only YTou can do this.

James did not contradict paul in Romans 4..

A lot of the problem here is semantics. When we "get saved" by our choice, we are merely accepting Salvation, and not atoning for our own sins or bypassing Christ's Grace.

This is called justification.

All who call on the name of the lord will be saved.

the tax collector. unable to even look up. cried out to God.

Those people go home justified. totally saved. every sin past present and future is paid. Jesus said It is finished "tetelesti" literally Paid in full"

SInce those people are no longer dogs, they do nto go back to their vomit. they hopefully in the future will have a great faith like those of abraham and the others in the faith hall of faith.. and produce much fruit..

But their salvation is not based on how much fruit they produce.. I am sure many will be standing looking at all their works burnt up as ash, yet still be saved, even as through fire. (1 cor 13)

Christ is the one who atoned for our sins who we choose to embrace in our lives. So though we may "get Saved" by embracing Christ, it it ultimately Christ who alone "saved us."

Yes. If you just stop here. You will get it.

Our will is an active participant in our Salvation in terms of obedience,

But you don;t. You contradict yourself by trying to add your own works to the work of God..

but only a passive participant in terms of enabling us to obey. We are an active participant in terms of using our Will to accept Salvation, but only a passive participant in putting Christ's atonement into effect in our lives.

We are enabled by means of our creation to obey God's Word, or to exercise our will in response to God's Word. This is what we were made to do, to live in God's image, and to respond to God's word of command.

But it is God's Word that enables us to obey. Only he could forgive our sins. And even then only he can give us commands to enable us to do good works as a result of renewing his relationship with us by Grace. Oh my--difficult to say without sounding like a heretic! ;)

I pray you search deep inside.. You have to much self thinking and not enough God thinking

I am confident of this one thing, that he who began a good work in me WILL complete that work..

I pray you find that confidence.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn't change His words. Nor add to them.
You simply don't understand what is written in His word when it is right in front of you.

I understand them quote clearly. Sadly, You do not understand them, You change the meaning of them, or add to the word.

Again, I explained what it meant in John 3, using the serpent and how it was able to save everyone there. But only those who trusted God and looked were saved. the rest had salvation in their grasp. but they rejected it in unbelief.

In the same token, Jesus would be hung on a pole. that WHOSOEVER believes (looks) will be saved whoever does not will remain condemned.

Its all basic really.. The simplicity that is found in Christ. sadly so simple. people reject it. because it is too simple. that is why it is called a stumbling block

You change His words.You add too. And why?
You think someone can change God's Sovereign will!

No. I did no such thing,

Proving you also don't know what Sovereign means.

I know exactly what it means. I also know what love means, It appears you do not..

Your argument above makes no sense.
You can't see that.
And I told you why.

It does not make sens because you are looking at them through fatalistic eyes. You can only see what you want to see.. and for this reason, you will continue to accuse (and falsly accuse at that) based on what you see.

Jesus rose a man from the dead. and the blind jews claimed he did it by the power of Satan, When your stuck in religious thinking, You can not see the truth when it stairs you in the face.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If I were you (not "was"), I would take a class or two in philosophy and history.

why, so I could make the same mistake the jew made?

Although, to be honest, I'm not sure in this day where you can get your money's worth. Historically, there was but one Church for the first 1000 years of Christianity. The Catholic Church. The Orthodox splintered off in 1054 A.D. in the Great Schism, but they retained Apostolic Succession, and, therefore, all seven Sacraments instituted by Christ. Protestantism came along in the 16th century and has continually splintered into differing, contradictory denominations ever since. And you're claiming that Protestantism is the way to go? If so, which of the tens of thousands of man-made denominations do you claim has it right? And why? (If you answer because it agrees with your personal interpretation of Scripture, I'll have to mark that answer as wrong.)

lol

I already explained. There COULD BE NO OTHER CHURCH. the power of rome forbade it.

Read your own history. It even states this..

Just like the true believers were pretty much hidden in the Jewish period. while the religious jew (priesthood and other religious functions which became known as Judaism) used its power and influence to knock down anything that did not agree with their region.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, James did not say this, He said we prove to our self that our faith is real by our actions.

I understand that this is *your version* of what James actually said. Here it is again, and I'll let the reader decide...

James 2.
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

But you don;t. You contradict yourself by trying to add your own works to the work of God..

As I said, we don't "self-atone" to get saved. We accept both Christ as the object of our faith and the requirements that is involved in that faith, which is the choice to live in him. One cannot separate faith in Christ from the choice to live in Christ. You don't seem to get that? Salvation cannot exclude the choice to *live in Christ!*

I'll leave it there since you apparently have no intention of trying to understand or accept this simple statement of truth. And James is plainly saying that, as any reader will recognize, if he or she is alert to it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

rephrase what
we are saved by faith alone, But faith is never alone. Its not that difficult.

What you wrote did not make sense to me because it lacked proper sentence construction. You said, "My rejection is that works are part of salvation saying it is is legalism." I do see it now. What you meant to say is, "My rejection is that works are part of salvation. Saying it is is legalism."

I've gone to lengths to say I do not believe we play any role in our own atonement. But Salvation requires both that we commit to Christ by faith and that we commit to live in him. If you deny that, you deny the Bible. In particular, you should read 1 John, where John goes to lengths to explain that Christianity is not just a nominal commitment, but much more, a commitment to *live in Christ.*

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

You can argue all you want how only Christ could atone for our sins. But you will not be able to get around this requirement from the Apostle John that we must also choose to *live in Christ.* The choice to live in Christ is not participating in the work of atonement that only Christ could do. It is a necessary part of faith, which is a true commitment to embrace Christ's atonement as well as the choice to live in him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I understand that this is *your version* of what James actually said. Here it is again, and I'll let the reader decide...

James 2.
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

thanks, you just proved my point, this is what I said.

CAN THIS FAITH SAVE THEM

15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

again why would you want James to contradict paul. Using your interpretation f this passage causes james and paul to be at Odds (romans 4)

As I said, we don't "self-atone" to get saved. We accept both Christ as the object of our faith and the requirements that is involved in that faith, which is the choice to live in him.

Then you are self atoning by choosing to live.

I am confused as to why you can not see this. you are doing something of your own to receive atonement, this is the very definition of self atoning

One cannot separate faith in Christ from the choice to live in Christ.

Paul did

If it is of grace it is no longer of works. otherwise Grace is no longer grace

if it is of works (how we live or things we do) then it is no longer of grace, otherwise works are no longer works.

You don't seem to get that? Salvation cannot exclude the choice to *live in Christ!*

I was saved because I repented and called out. I did not promise God anything, I could not offer him anything to even get him to think of forging me, I had to in humility call out. like the tax collector.

Once he saved me, He gave me the will and the opportunity and the ability to live in him..

You have the cart before the horse.

I'll leave it there since you apparently have no intention of trying to understand or accept this simple statement of truth.

Thats because it is not truth. It no different than a jew saying yes, paul is right, we have to come in faith, But you also have to be circumcised. and here the Gods law. you have to do all these things also..

And James is plainly saying that, as any reader will recognize, if he or she is alert to it.

But Jame did nto say it..

And as is typical of a self righteous person. You totally ignored paul 4.

when we only want to focus on one passage, then attack someone for being unlearned or whatever you want to call it. You are hurting yourself. Your not going to convince anyone to come to your side when you do this.

 

[Johann]

again why would you want James to contradict paul. Using your interpretation f this passage causes james and paul to be at Odds (romans 4)

This is where @Randy Kluth comes from, and I am in agreement with him--we are going to be judged by what we have done, in words, thoughts and DEEDS--

The question of whether "faith alone" is a dead faith touches on a significant theological debate, particularly between different Christian traditions. The concept of "faith alone" (sola fide) is central to Protestant theology, especially in the context of the Reformation, while the idea of "dead faith" comes from the Epistle of James in the New Testament. To understand this fully, it's important to explore the relevant biblical passages and the theological interpretations associated with them.

James on "Dead Faith":
The Epistle of James famously addresses the relationship between faith and works:

James 2:14-17 (NIV):

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
James 2:24 (NIV):

"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."
Interpretation:
James argues that faith without works is "dead." He contends that genuine faith naturally produces good works, and if it doesn't, that faith is not alive—it is ineffective or "dead." James emphasizes that works are the evidence of a living faith, not the means of salvation, but rather the fruit of a true, saving faith.

Paul on "Faith Alone":
The Apostle Paul, particularly in his letters to the Romans and Galatians, strongly advocates for the doctrine of justification by faith alone, apart from works of the law:

Romans 3:28 (NIV):

"For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV):

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
Interpretation:
Paul emphasizes that salvation is a gift of God's grace received through faith, not something earned by human effort or works. For Paul, faith alone is sufficient for justification, meaning that believers are declared righteous before God solely on the basis of their faith in Jesus Christ.

Harmonizing James and Paul:
While at first glance, James and Paul might appear to be in conflict, many theologians argue that their teachings are complementary rather than contradictory:

Contextual Differences:

Paul is addressing a context where people might believe they could earn salvation through works of the law (such as circumcision, dietary laws, etc.). He insists that salvation is through faith alone in Christ, not by observing the law.
James is addressing a different problem: people who claim to have faith but show no evidence of it in their lives. He stresses that genuine faith must produce works, as true faith is transformative.
The Role of Works:

Paul does not dismiss the importance of good works; he simply asserts that they are the result of salvation, not the cause of it. For example, in Ephesians 2:10, Paul writes, "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

James argues that works are the visible proof of faith. If someone claims to have faith but lives a life that shows no change, James would question whether that faith is real.
Conclusion:
From a biblical and theological perspective, faith without works is indeed considered "dead" by James, meaning it is not a genuine, living faith. However, Paul’s doctrine of "faith alone" does not advocate for a faith devoid of works; rather, it asserts that works are not the basis of our salvation, but the necessary fruit of a saving faith.

In essence, genuine faith is never alone; it is always accompanied by works. True faith is transformative, leading to a life that reflects the love and righteousness of God. This is the consensus view in much of Christian theology, which seeks to harmonize the teachings of James and Paul.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What you wrote did not make sense to me because it lacked proper sentence construction. You said, "My rejection is that works are part of salvation saying it is is legalism." I do see it now. What you meant to say is, "My rejection is that works are part of salvation. Saying it is is legalism."

I've gone to lengths to say I do not believe we play any role in our own atonement. But Salvation requires both that we commit to Christ by faith and that we commit to live in him.

Ok, Here is my beef. and why I do not see and can not see what you are saying as true.

first you say this
I've gone to lengths to say I do not believe we play any role in our own atonement.

But then you say this

Salvation requires both that we commit to Christ by faith and that we commit to live in him.

These are contradictory statements You can not say you have any role. then in the next breath say you have a role (living in him)

I pray now that I have called this out. you see the contradictory statement..

If you deny that, you deny the Bible.

No. I deny your interpretation..

The bible does not contradict. Paul did not contradict James, james did not contradict paul. They are in agreement

Paul says statement of fact.

1. eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

See what he said?
1. We were saved by Grace
2. No works were included in our salvation, it is not of ourselves. it is a GIFT of God.
3. Those saved will work.

James said in essence, if you claim you have the faith paul said we have in Eph 2. Or Jesus said we needed in John 3, but if you don;t have the workd paul said you will have, can that "dead" or "lifeless" faith save you?

You see, it is not that faith did not include works that was the problem

it was the fact that they never had faith that was the problem

Those who have true faith, will have works

those who do not. (if they are hears of the word and not doers) have true faith, will never work, because they did not trust God to begin with.

You also have to insert the legalist. who believes it is their faith plus works which save them, They have all kinds of works. but their faith is in their works, Not in God.. so they have a belief in God. but they do not really trust him.

Both licentiousness (the ones James spoke to) and legalists (the ones paul spoke to ) have a problem. the problem is true faith.. One things they are righteous because they obey, the other thinks they said a pray and magically they are saved and can live however they want.

They are both lost.

In particular, you should read 1 John, where John goes to lengths to explain that Christianity is not just a nominal commitment, but much more, a commitment to *live in Christ.*

I never denied it.

Like most legalists, You also think I believe something I do not..

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

You can argue all you want how only Christ could atone for our sins.

Well yeah, Thats what the word of God says

the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is life.

You can't pay for your sins by your works, You will either recieve the gift of God. and his recieve his death for your sins,
or you will die in your sins.

But you will not be able to get around this requirement from the Apostle John that we must also choose to *live in Christ.* The choice to live in Christ is not participating in the work of atonement that only Christ could do. It is a necessary part of faith, which is a true commitment to embrace Christ's atonement as well as the choice to live in him.

Well I could be like the jews who crucified christ. The roman catholics who follow in their footsteps. and every other religious legalistic pharisee gospel.

or I could do like Jesus said, Look to the cross in faith, If I do this, i will never perish, and I will live forever.

If you want to earn your gift. then deny your trying to earn it, and live in denial. Thats up to you.

I will pray for you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is where @Randy Kluth comes from, and I am in agreement with him--we are going to be judged by what we have done, in words, thoughts and DEEDS--

Your eternal destination will not be based on this.

Those who are saved will be rewarded for their works.

Those who are not saved will recieve no reward., only death

in fact. they will both go to different judgments

(the first to the Bema Seat the second to the great white throne

The question of whether "faith alone" is a dead faith touches on a significant theological debate, particularly between different Christian traditions. The concept of "faith alone" (sola fide) is central to Protestant theology, especially in the context of the Reformation, while the idea of "dead faith" comes from the Epistle of James in the New Testament. To understand this fully, it's important to explore the relevant biblical passages and the theological interpretations associated with them.

James on "Dead Faith":
The Epistle of James famously addresses the relationship between faith and works:

James 2:14-17 (NIV):

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
James 2:24 (NIV):

"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."
Interpretation:
James argues that faith without works is "dead." He contends that genuine faith naturally produces good works, and if it doesn't, that faith is not alive—it is ineffective or "dead." James emphasizes that works are the evidence of a living faith, not the means of salvation, but rather the fruit of a true, saving faith.

we agree, in fact this is what IO have been saying. If you read randy's take. He would differ in what he thinks it means

Paul on "Faith Alone":
The Apostle Paul, particularly in his letters to the Romans and Galatians, strongly advocates for the doctrine of justification by faith alone, apart from works of the law:

Romans 3:28 (NIV):

"For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV):

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
Interpretation:
Paul emphasizes that salvation is a gift of God's grace received through faith, not something earned by human effort or works. For Paul, faith alone is sufficient for justification, meaning that believers are declared righteous before God solely on the basis of their faith in Jesus Christ.

Harmonizing James and Paul:
While at first glance, James and Paul might appear to be in conflict, many theologians argue that their teachings are complementary rather than contradictory:

Yes Again I agree.

Paul is saying our justification is by faith

James said if we do not have this faith (proven by the fact we have no works) we are not justified..

So in essense. our faith is tested and proven by works, and by our works we justify (to ourselves) that our faith is real..

God does not need us to prove our faith. He knows when someone actually trusts him, and when someone is just repeating words, but has no faith. remember, He called Judas out in John 6. Long before Judas proved his faith was dead.

Contextual Differences:

Paul is addressing a context where people might believe they could earn salvation through works of the law (such as circumcision, dietary laws, etc.). He insists that salvation is through faith alone in Christ, not by observing the law.
James is addressing a different problem: people who claim to have faith but show no evidence of it in their lives. He stresses that genuine faith must produce works, as true faith is transformative.

I disagree in part. He is not telling them they MUST have works.

He is telling them to test their own faith.. If it is not producing work, then re-evaluate their faith. because it is not a living faith. can that faith save? No.. Thats also why it produces no works.

The Role of Works:

Paul does not dismiss the importance of good works; he simply asserts that they are the result of salvation, not the cause of it. For example, in Ephesians 2:10, Paul writes, "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

James argues that works are the visible proof of faith. If someone claims to have faith but lives a life that shows no change, James would question whether that faith is real.

Agree, But not to help everyone be fruit inspectors.. or to say you have no works, so you must not be saved. But James once again is telling us to test our own faith.

Conclusion:
From a biblical and theological perspective, faith without works is indeed considered "dead" by James, meaning it is not a genuine, living faith. However, Paul’s doctrine of "faith alone" does not advocate for a faith devoid of works; rather, it asserts that works are not the basis of our salvation, but the necessary fruit of a saving faith.

Take the word necessary out

Paul is saying works are a byproduct of true living faith. When we say they MUST be done, or they are necessary, it is taking away from what really is happening, and puts focus back on self.

any time we do this, we are in serious trouble

In essence, genuine faith is never alone; it is always accompanied by works. True faith is transformative, leading to a life that reflects the love and righteousness of God. This is the consensus view in much of Christian theology, which seeks to harmonize the teachings of James and Paul.

Agreed

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ok, Here is my beef. and why I do not see and can not see what you are saying as true.

first you say this
I've gone to lengths to say I do not believe we play any role in our own atonement.

But then you say this

Salvation requires both that we commit to Christ by faith and that we commit to live in him.

These are contradictory statements You can not say you have any role. then in the next breath say you have a role (living in him)

I pray now that I have called this out. you see the contradictory statement..

You should pray for yourself! The Apostle John said precisely what I'm saying, and would you "pray for him and for his contradictions?"

No, you've intellectually limited yourself for the sake of furthering your Protestant indoctrination, upholding like a soldier the idea that "we are not saved by works," all the while ignoring that Paul was talking about "uninspired Works," or "Works done apart from Christ!"

1. eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I've addressed this repeatedly. Paul is talking about our need for redemption. We cannot be saved by Works alone *apart from Christ's redemption!*

This is not a statement denying Works are part of our choice to accept Christ as our Redeemer! John said plainly that those who claim to have Christ must also do what Christ said. Those Works are part of living in Christ, and do not stand apart from Christ, which were the "Works" Paul was speaking of.

Of course you never address 1 John 2! And that's why you go on saying the same things with me, because you can't face the hopeless contradiction in your position that those who accept Christ by faith can't ignore what he has told them to do. That is not Salvation!

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is where @Randy Kluth comes from, and I am in agreement with him--we are going to be judged by what we have done, in words, thoughts and DEEDS--

The question of whether "faith alone" is a dead faith touches on a significant theological debate, particularly between different Christian traditions. The concept of "faith alone" (sola fide) is central to Protestant theology, especially in the context of the Reformation, while the idea of "dead faith" comes from the Epistle of James in the New Testament. To understand this fully, it's important to explore the relevant biblical passages and the theological interpretations associated with them.

James on "Dead Faith":
The Epistle of James famously addresses the relationship between faith and works:

James 2:14-17 (NIV):

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
James 2:24 (NIV):

"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."
Interpretation:
James argues that faith without works is "dead." He contends that genuine faith naturally produces good works, and if it doesn't, that faith is not alive—it is ineffective or "dead." James emphasizes that works are the evidence of a living faith, not the means of salvation, but rather the fruit of a true, saving faith.

Paul on "Faith Alone":
The Apostle Paul, particularly in his letters to the Romans and Galatians, strongly advocates for the doctrine of justification by faith alone, apart from works of the law:

Romans 3:28 (NIV):

"For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV):

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
Interpretation:
Paul emphasizes that salvation is a gift of God's grace received through faith, not something earned by human effort or works. For Paul, faith alone is sufficient for justification, meaning that believers are declared righteous before God solely on the basis of their faith in Jesus Christ.

Harmonizing James and Paul:
While at first glance, James and Paul might appear to be in conflict, many theologians argue that their teachings are complementary rather than contradictory:

Contextual Differences:

Paul is addressing a context where people might believe they could earn salvation through works of the law (such as circumcision, dietary laws, etc.). He insists that salvation is through faith alone in Christ, not by observing the law.
James is addressing a different problem: people who claim to have faith but show no evidence of it in their lives. He stresses that genuine faith must produce works, as true faith is transformative.
The Role of Works:

Paul does not dismiss the importance of good works; he simply asserts that they are the result of salvation, not the cause of it. For example, in Ephesians 2:10, Paul writes, "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

James argues that works are the visible proof of faith. If someone claims to have faith but lives a life that shows no change, James would question whether that faith is real.
Conclusion:
From a biblical and theological perspective, faith without works is indeed considered "dead" by James, meaning it is not a genuine, living faith. However, Paul’s doctrine of "faith alone" does not advocate for a faith devoid of works; rather, it asserts that works are not the basis of our salvation, but the necessary fruit of a saving faith.

In essence, genuine faith is never alone; it is always accompanied by works. True faith is transformative, leading to a life that reflects the love and righteousness of God. This is the consensus view in much of Christian theology, which seeks to harmonize the teachings of James and Paul.

Yes, Paul argued that only temporary justification was made available by the Law, and that Eternal Life comes exclusively by the redemption of Christ. Eternal Justification comes by faith in Christ's atonement, and does not exclude the Works he died to enable us to do.

The Law was not anti-Works. It was replete with the need to do Works of Faith, although that Faith fell short of final Justification. Justification was deliberately left, by the Law, until Christ came and provided a satisfactory atonement--one that lasts forever. The Law was just a temporary fill-in until Final Justification could come by Faith in Christ.

So this anti-Works thing has gotten out of hand in Protestant circles, and we need to circle back to original Christianity which John declared in 1 John 2. If we claim to be in Christ we must live in Christ. As James said, both Faith and Deeds. Thanks brother! :)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You should pray for yourself!

I should? Because your contradicting yourself. I should pray for myself? Thats kind of arrogant to say my friend

The Apostle John said precisely what I'm saying, and would you "pray for him and for his contradictions?"

No, Because John did not say what you claim, The apostle john wrote John 3, John 4, John 5 John 6, 1 John 2 and 1 John 3,. which totally contradicts what you said.. did he contradict himself also?

No, you've intellectually limited yourself for the sake of furthering your Protestant indoctrination,

lol. dude, I follow no church, I am not a follower of man. I am a follower of God.

upholding like a soldier the idea that "we are not saved by works," all the while ignoring that Paul was talking about "uninspired Works," or "Works done apart from Christ!"

Well those terms mean nothing,, Because in no case did paul say we are saved by any waorks. evern works of righteousness

Ttius 3: 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his MERCY HE SAVED US.

I was saved,, EVidently you have no confidence in god.. which would explain why you have alot of confidence in your flesh.

I've addressed this repeatedly. Paul is talking about our need for redemption. We cannot be saved by Works alone *apart from Christ's redemption!*

We are ONLY saved by faith alone alone, through the redemption found in christ jesus See how you twist his words. He said faith apart from works

faith minus works equals faith alone

This is not a statement denying Works are part of our choice to accept Christ as our Redeemer!

Well he never said what you claimed he said, so this is nonsensical

John said plainly that those who claim to have Christ must also do what Christ said. Those Works are part of living in Christ, and do not stand apart from Christ, which were the "Works" Paul was speaking of.

Yes, woprks of sanctification.

But we are already justified.

In your orthodox or catholic blindness you think works are required.

The wage of sin is death

the wage of sin is not your death plus your works.

Of course you never address 1 John 2! And that's why you go on saying the same things with me, because you can't face the hopeless contradiction in your position that those who accept Christ by faith can't ignore what he has told them to do. That is not Salvation!

Yawn

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Amen, I agree 100%

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

I agree, We SHOULD (not must) walk just as he walked. But how many of us have ever done this in reality?


9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

Again I agree.

But it does not support your theory.

This same John said he wrote things so we can KNOW we have eternal life

as a catholic you believe you can still die. hence yuo do not know you have eternal life. hence you do not trust John any more than you do paul

walk away from your church, and study to shew yourself approved. learn to think for yourself. and maybe you will see 1 The contradiction in your own words, and 2, how your belief causes the apostles of God to contradict themselves and each other