CALVINISM IS SIMPLY THE GOSPEL BELIEVED
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Augustin56
Well-Known Member
Well, Jesus didn't write a book (Bible) to spread His truths. He founded a Church. It is the Church that spreads His truth. And, it is the Church that wrote the New Testament and compiled the Bible. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would never prevail over. That means it will never teach doctrinal error. Go to Jesus' Church to find His truths. The Bible is a tool of the Church, and can help you, but only in the context of the Church's interpretation.
Disagree.
It's true that Jesus founded the Church, as seen in Matthew 16:18, where He says, "I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." However, the Church's foundation was not meant to supplant Scripture or place itself above God’s written Word. The Church is indeed the body of believers, and its mission is to proclaim the gospel, but its authority comes from Christ and His Word, not merely its own institutional framework.
Jesus never indicated that the institutional Church would have exclusive authority over truth or that the Bible should only be understood through the lens of the Church.
In fact, He held Scripture in the highest regard, frequently quoting from it to authenticate His ministry (Matthew 4:4, Matthew 5:17-18).
2. Jesus Did Not Write a Book, But He Affirmed the Authority of Scripture
While it’s true that Jesus did not write any portion of the Bible Himself, He constantly affirmed the authority of the Scriptures, often quoting from the Old Testament. Jesus declared, "It is written," to combat Satan’s temptations (Matthew 4:1-11). This shows that Jesus relied on the authority of Scripture as the ultimate truth.
The New Testament was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as 2 Timothy 3:16 teaches that "All Scripture is God-breathed" and profitable for teaching. Therefore, while the early Church was instrumental in preserving and compiling the New Testament, it did not originate Scripture; rather, Scripture came from God through the apostles. This distinguishes the Word of God as supreme and not a subordinate tool of any institution, including the Church.
3. The Church Is Not Infallible in Doctrine
The claim that the Church cannot teach doctrinal error based on Matthew 16:18 (the gates of hell not prevailing against it) misunderstands what Jesus was promising. The verse emphasizes that the Church will endure despite opposition, not that it will never face doctrinal issues. Throughout history, church councils and various denominations have disagreed on major doctrinal matters. The New Testament itself records times when the early church leaders needed correction, such as Peter being rebuked by Paul in Galatians 2:11-14. This shows that even leaders within the Church can err and need the correction of Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
Additionally, Jesus warned about false teachers arising within the Church in Matthew 24:24 and Acts 20:29-30, where Paul warns that "savage wolves" will come from among the believers, teaching false doctrines. This shows that no institutional body is immune from error and must be constantly tested against Scripture (1 John 4:1).
4. The Role of the Bible and Individual Access to God's Truth
Your statement that the Bible is only a tool of the Church, and that it must be interpreted through the Church, diminishes the clear biblical teaching that Scripture is sufficient for guiding believers into truth.
In John 16:13, Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all truth." This guidance is for all believers, not just for Church authorities. The Reformation emphasized the principle of sola scriptura, which teaches that Scripture alone is the final authority in matters of faith and practice, not Church tradition or interpretation.
The Bible encourages individual believers to study and know the Word:
Acts 17:11 commends the Bereans for examining the Scriptures daily to verify what Paul taught.
2 Timothy 2:15 urges believers to "rightly divide the word of truth" and be diligent in handling Scripture.
The idea that one must go to the institutional Church for the true interpretation of Scripture denies the individual's responsibility and privilege of engaging directly with the Word of God, aided by the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).
5. Church Tradition vs. Scriptural Authority
While Church tradition can offer helpful insights, it must always be subjected to Scripture, which is the final authority (Isaiah 8:20, Mark 7:13). There are times when church traditions have contradicted Scripture, such as the selling of indulgences during the medieval period, which led to the Reformation. Tradition is valuable, but it is not infallible. Scripture alone carries that weight, as it is God-breathed.
6. Jesus’ Truths Are Inherent in the Word of God
Jesus Himself declared in John 17:17, "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." The truth of Jesus is not found exclusively in a Church institution, but is fully revealed in the Scriptures, which are the living and active Word of God (Hebrews 4:12). The Holy Spirit works through the Word to teach, rebuke, correct, and train in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
The Bible equips the believer directly, and it is through Scripture that one knows the truth of Jesus Christ, not just through the institution of the Church. While the Church plays a crucial role in teaching and proclaiming the gospel, it is not above or outside of Scripture but subject to it.
Jesus founded the Church, but He did not give it the authority to override or monopolize the interpretation of Scripture.
Scripture is God-breathed and has authority independent of any church tradition.
The Church is not infallible and has faced doctrinal errors throughout history.
Believers are encouraged to study and interpret Scripture for themselves, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus’ truths are embedded in the Word of God, which is accessible to all believers and should be the final authority on matters of faith.
J.
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
The Church founded by Christ PRECEDED the New Testament, and in fact, WROTE the New Testament. The Tradition of the Church is Holy Tradition, aka, Oral Tradition that St. Paul refers to in 2 Thes 2:15. "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." Jesus didn't write a book. He taught orally. And He commanded the Apostles to do likewise. See Matt. 28:20. Eventually, the Apostles and their followers began to write SOME of what was taught orally. And in the late 4th century, the Church at the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage declared that SOME of what was written down was worthy of being called Scripture. That's the New Testament. It is the Church that has Christ's authority, not the individual personally interpreting his translation into the vernacular of his/her Bible. Why would Jesus create a reading and self-interpreting method of spreading HIs truths when the vast majority of humanity would have been excluded because they were illiterate for the first 18 or so centuries of Christianity? Does that make sense to you? No. He founded a Church, gave it His authority to teach and sanctify, and promised that it would never teach doctrinal error (Matt. 16:18).
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Augustin56
Well-Known Member
The Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ. St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch ordained by St. Peter, was captured by the Romans. While they were transporting him to be martyred for the faith, he wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans around 107-110 A.D., referring to the "Catholic Church," not in such a manner as if he were coining the term, but in such a manner in which he fully expected the Smyrnaeans to understand what he was talking about.
It says in paragraph 8, "Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
See the entire letter here: https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Smyrnaeans.pdf
Historically, the Orthodox splintered off from the Catholic Church in 1054 A.D. And Protestantism didn't start until the 16th century. And it has continually spintered into literally tens of thousands of disagreeing denominations (and counting), all based on someone's personal interpretation of Scripture.
Acknowledge the Existence of Oral Tradition, But Emphasize Its Temporary Role
It is true that oral tradition existed in the early days of the Church, as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, where Paul instructs believers to hold fast to the traditions taught both orally and by letter. However, the purpose of oral tradition was temporary, serving the Church until Scripture was fully written and canonized. Once the New Testament writings were completed, the focus shifted from oral tradition to the Scriptures as the final, God-breathed authority. This is why Paul, in his final epistle, emphasizes the centrality of Scripture:
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).
Though Paul acknowledged oral teachings, he never elevated them above Scripture. The early Church, even in its oral phase, was already grounded in the authority of the Old Testament Scriptures, which the New Testament writers later expanded upon.
2. Scripture as the Final Authority
While it’s true that the Church predates the New Testament, the New Testament itself testifies that the ultimate authority is God’s Word, not church tradition.
Isaiah 8:20 declares, “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.”
Jesus Himself, in Matthew 15:6, rebuked the religious leaders for elevating their traditions above Scripture, saying, "Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition." Jesus emphasized the Word of God over man-made traditions, suggesting that tradition must always be subject to Scripture, not its equal.
3. Scripture was Recognized, Not Created by the Church
It is incorrect to say that the Church created the New Testament. The New Testament was written under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21). The role of the early Church councils, such as those of Hippo and Carthage, was not to "declare" these books Scripture but to recognize the canon that was already being used widely by the early Christians. The authority of these writings was inherent because they were God-breathed, not because the Church bestowed authority upon them.
The New Testament writers, including the apostles and their associates, were chosen by God to record His Word (John 14:26). The early Church, as a faithful steward, simply acknowledged the inspired texts, which had already been in circulation and accepted by the believers at large. The process was one of discovery, not invention.
4. Jesus Did Teach Orally, But He Ensured the Preservation of His Word in Writing
Yes, Jesus taught orally, but He also intended for His teachings to be preserved in written form so that future generations could know His truth. This is evident in the Gospel of John:
"These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31). The Apostles, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, wrote down what they had seen and heard, which eventually became the New Testament.
Matthew 28:20 (“teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you”) certainly includes oral teaching, but the Apostles did not rely solely on oral transmission. They wrote letters and Gospels under divine inspiration, ensuring that future believers could access God’s truth in writing. The written Word guarantees that the message remains unchanged over time, whereas oral tradition can be prone to errors and alterations, as even church history demonstrates.
5. The Infallibility of the Church Misinterpreted
The argument that the Church will never teach doctrinal error based on Matthew 16:18 is not supported by the full counsel of Scripture. Matthew 16:18 promises that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, meaning the Church will endure and continue, but this does not guarantee that the Church will never err in its doctrine. In fact, the New Testament warns believers about the rise of false teachers even within the Church:
Acts 20:29-30: Paul warns that savage wolves will come in among the flock, teaching false doctrines.
2 Peter 2:1: Peter warns about false teachers within the Church who will introduce destructive heresies.
History shows that the Church has faced doctrinal corruption and has had to correct its course multiple times. For instance, the sale of indulgences and other practices in the medieval Church led to significant calls for reform. The Scriptures provide the plumb line by which such errors are corrected.
6. The Role of Literacy and Scripture
The claim that a self-interpreting method of spreading truth doesn’t make sense because many people were illiterate for centuries overlooks two important points:
First, while literacy rates were low, the oral reading of Scripture was always central to the life of the Church. Even in the Old Testament, Moses and the prophets commanded that Scripture be read aloud to the people (Deuteronomy 31:11, Nehemiah 8:8). Similarly, the New Testament letters were written to be read aloud to the churches (Colossians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 5:27).
Second, God’s Word is not limited by human literacy rates. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ (Romans 10:17). The early Church spread the gospel through preaching and reading of the Scriptures, ensuring that even those who were illiterate could hear and understand the Word of God.
7. The Holy Spirit as the True Interpreter of Scripture
Finally, the idea that only the Church can properly interpret the Bible is contradicted by Scripture itself. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide believers into all truth (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit teaches individual believers, helping them to understand God’s Word. While the Church plays a role in teaching and preserving the truth, it is ultimately God’s Word that has the final authority, and the Holy Spirit enables all believers to interpret it:
1 John 2:27: "The anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in Him."
This passage emphasizes that the Holy Spirit gives individual believers the ability to understand Scripture.
Oral tradition had its place in the early Church, but Scripture ultimately took precedence as the final, inspired authority.
The Church recognized the canon of Scripture, but did not create it; Scripture’s authority comes from God, not from the Church.
Jesus’ oral teachings were eventually written down to ensure their preservation, and the Holy Spirit aids in the proper interpretation of these writings.
The promise that the Church would not be overcome by the gates of hell does not guarantee that the Church will never err doctrinally; the Bible provides the standard for correction.
The Holy Spirit enables individual believers to understand Scripture, and the truth of God is not limited by literacy but is spread through both oral proclamation and written Scripture.
J.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
The Roman church did not write teh Scriptures but idividual members of the body of Christ called to wqrite them.
There was no "catholic church in the first century. There was the fledgling church which had many divisions in it. I know you like to say "catholic church" as a point to legitimatize Romanism, but it is n't true.
The church is not an organization but an organism. It is comprised of individual believers from all sects. Romanism is not the ultimate authority.
Well I have 60 years of intense study of the Word of God under my belt. So please tell me where I am privately interpreting Scripture.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No the Orthodox split from the Roman Church not the catholic church. You cannot splinter from the catholic (small c) church unless yo0u deny the faith.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Once again you have made yourself a liar! Please cite teh words of Calvin denying the cross and spitting on Gods grace.
As I have told you ad-nauseum, I care not a whit about the totality of Calvins doctrines, I just show why the five points given in answer to Jacob Armenius is biblical.
John 3:16 says nothing about free will or election. it is a simple statement of fact. It doesn't say HOW one becomes born again, it simply says that if anyone does A then B occurs. Instead of listing all throughout history who have been saved He just said whoever does A gets B. Poor understanding of language and syntax on your part.
If you want to use 2 Cor. 5:19 in your defense of a corrupt human nature able to choose, then you must accept all are saved for that verse standing on its own says :
9 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
And we know you do not accept universalism. In truth you believe most people who claim to b e saved are not saved because they still commit sin. So by your own statements on this forum heaven is going to be a mighty empty place.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
But the church you follow does not do this. and no. they did not write the word. come on man. God did. Give God some credit. stop taking it for yourself (your church)
Your right. We should interpret the word by what it says, not what we want it to say. I have been doing this for 45 years now. how about you? Oh wait. You just blindly follow what you are told.. sorry
there is one church. that church is based on one gospel. Now there are many churches that claim to follow that gospel. if they do. they follow God. if they do not. they are a church in name only.
Your faith is also the gift of God.
But this faith when given to you becomes your faith
Faith is one of the fruits of God's Holy Spirit who is at work in you.
Your ability to believe, God has granted to you, which is why you believe, He has given to all believers their measure of faith.
God's grace towards you supplied you with His gift of your faith. You just cannot believe on your own in Christ. The Holy Spirit taught your spirit to believe in Christ
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
And all here means all those who believed in Christ, God taught them that, not that all are taught
Romans 12. faith is a spiritual gift come from God.
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Part of the reformation was the concept the priesthood of all believers, not a separate priesthood of only selected individuals. We do not need a priest to take our needs to God, we are to do that ourselves directly. I don't have an issue of others praying for me either.
Jesus is our priest.
Our Compassionate High Priest
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Hey Behold! where did you go? did the brightness of the Word of God expose that darkness you peddle and hurt the eyes of your soul? Relich the light of the Word of God and be free!!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
this is uncalled for and quite arrogant if you ask me!
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
The Reformation ended up with those who left the Catholic Church losing Apostolic Succession, and, therefore, the heirarichal priesthood. That, in turn, resulted in losting five of the seven Sacraments instituted by Christ.
Christians are priests, but Scripture indicates that there is also a special, ministerial priesthood.
The Church agrees that, by baptism, Christians have a share in Christ’s priesthood (CCC 1141, 1268, 1546; cf. 1174, 1322). This is commonly referred to as “the common priesthood of all the faithful” (CCC 1535). However, certain members of the faithful are ordained to a greater participation in Christ’s priesthood by the sacrament of holy orders. This is known as the ministerial priesthood (CCC 1547). Christ—the source of the common and ministerial priesthoods—is our high priest (CCC 1544). The Church thus understands there to be a threefold structure: the common priesthood of all, the ministerial priesthood of the ordained, and the high priesthood of Christ.
This is what we see in the New Testament. The common priesthood is referred to in 1 Peter 2:9. The ministerial priesthood is referred to in Romans 15:16, where Paul speaks of how he is a minister of Christ “in the priestly service of the gospel of God.” The ministerial priesthood is also referred to in passages that speak of ordained Church leaders known as “elders” (Acts 14:23; 1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14). Finally, the high priesthood of Christ is referred to in passages such as Hebrews 3:1, 4:14–15, 5:5, 6:20, and 9:11.
This was also the pattern in the Old Testament. Peter was quoting from the Septuagint version of Exodus 19:6, where God told the Israelites that, if they kept his covenant, they would be to him “a royal priesthood and a holy nation” (Greek, basileion hierateuma kai ethnos hagion). There was thus a common priesthood of the Israelites, but that did not stop God from also appointing a ministerial priesthood from the sons of Aaron (Exod. 28:1), with Aaron as the high priest (Ezra 7:5). Rather than undermining the idea of a ministerial priesthood, Peter’s citation of Exodus supports it by invoking for the Church the same priestly concepts that applied to Israel.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Behold loves to snipe and throw out lots of opinion but rarely ever cites the Word of God, especially in the discussions on Calvinism! I am challenging him to be one who argues from the word and not hide from it.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
1. there never was apostolic succession. The supposed succession in th efirst three centuries was proven a forgery.
2. The entire church is a priesthood. The "ordained ministers" were never called priests but shepherds, bishops and elders.
3. Jesus instituted only 2 "sacraments" Baptism and the Lords Supper. The others were around in Judaism long before the church was born. Except confimation which supposedly took the place of the bar and bat mitsvahs
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
and man is morally unbale to choose God on his own.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It don't get much plainer than that!!
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Ephesians 1:4-5
King James Version
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Doesn't get much plainer than that!
John 3:16-18
King James Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Romans 9:15-24
King James Version
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Don't get much plainer than that!
The term limited atonement is not specifically found in Scripture but is clearly taught. where many err is that they equat Jesus being the propitiation for the sins of the world as the same as the atonement for sin. They are not equal! Propititation is an accepted sacrifice while atonement is the erasure of sin. If evcery ones sins were erased then universalism is true which it is not.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Don't get plainer than that!
Thge saints do persevere. but here you are having a snit because of a word! It simply means they are eternally secure and will persevere to the end because :
Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
I just did. But I noticed that you did not cite a single Scripture to defend your rebuttal opinion.
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