CALVINISM IS SIMPLY THE GOSPEL BELIEVED

[Eternally Grateful]

Why don't we try to make this a *respectful* conversation, rather than a "gotcha" contest? We're here to discuss the issues, and the matters just get clouded with an atmosphere of personal attack.

I don't have a pope.

If you're having a bad day, start over.

I am having a great day.. Maybe you need to start over?

I humble myself before God--not before those who accuse me.

I proposed you explain 1 John 2 and James 2 in light of my argument.

And I did. And you say you humbled yourself?

1 John 2 and James 2 suggest that those who put their faith in Christ as our Redeemer simultaneously commit to living in him as our Redeemer. This means we choose to produce Works in him at the moment we choose his Salvation.

No. It says we will do works. It does not say anything like you are proposing.

The tax collector called out for Gods mercy. He did not make any promise back to God.

So you're done with this? You don't think you have to do any Christian Works when you choose Christ as Savior?

I don't HAVE TO, I do WILLINGLY, when you say you HAVE to. Your making it a prerequisite.. or your saying God gave you a down payment, now demands you pay what you owe him.

Do you know how a bartering system works?

1. You pay in full. then receive
2. You receive, and promise to pay in full after you receive, failure to pay means you have to return the item..

In both cases, you are working to earn what it is you are receiving.

Salvation is a gift. It can not be earned.. Before during or after you receive it. Jesus paid it all.

You don't have to answer. Your temperature has to come down.

My temperature is fine.

But you need to learn to understand things. and not think you know it all. then falsly accuse based on the fact of you are not listening. or understanding what is being told to you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well the five points are vastly validated by numerous Scriptures so it is not his opinion, but him putting together the necessary verses to show why the five points are true!

There is a huge difference between offering ones opinion and one stating facts and showing them from Scripture.

but the 5 points are not true

the 1st is only partially true, and not in context of fatalism,
the next 3 are not true at all
the final ones puts the onus on the believer to persevere, not on God to keep those who are his, so this in essence is wrong also.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, did you take Galatians 1:8 out of your Bible?

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! Gal. 1:8

Yep

Anyone,

Including YOUR CHURCH. MY CHURCH. OR ANY OTHER CHURCH.

so what is the theme paul is trying to get across.

don;t follow men, Follow God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Straining at gnats while swallowing camels. You are so hung up on teh labels you cannot see the truth behind the five points because of a mere label.

God inspired the five points as Scripture elucidates them

um, no he did not.

The 5 points are not in scripture.. Now you may be able to come up with the 5 points by using scripture (like the trinity) but the 5 points are not in scripture.

Jesus inspired the apostles to write the verses from which the five points are derived

But they did not right in the context that supports those points

You lose every time.

This is rude my friend

Paul the Apostle was used by god to write down what Calvin would organize from Scripture as the five points

And Calvin got it wrong.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well as all 5 points were taught by Jesus and the Apostles, we are on safe ground.

um, no they were not. and neither are you

Remember Scripture is not open to interpretation. God inspired the very words used. God knew what He was doing.

But I can say the same for your remarks. All you are doing is giving you ropinions and interpretations.

And jsut to make sure, what do you mean by "Christ's Church".

But the 5 points come from an interpretation of scripture. be careful what you say

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If the 5 points were taught by Jesus and the Apostles, they would be part of Catholic doctrine. There were no Protestants until the 16th century, and no 5 points.

STOP FOLLOWING MEN!
Your as bad as he is. You both follow men..

Start following God. This response to him is nothign but arrogant pride in your church..

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. It says we will do works. It does not say anything like you are proposing.

I don't HAVE TO, I do WILLINGLY, when you say you HAVE to. Your making it a prerequisite.. or your saying God gave you a down payment, now demands you pay what you owe him.

Yes, we *have to.* That's what James 2 and 1 John 2 make clear, no matter what you say.

In both cases, you are working to earn what it is you are receiving.

I never said that we self-atone, or earn our own Salvation. I said the opposite. The need to opt to live in Christ is not "earning Salvation!" Accepting Christ is a prerequisite for Salvation. And accepting Christ *requires* that we accept *living in Christ.* Otherwise, we have not really accepted Christ at all! We *have to* accept Christ to be saved!

Salvation is a gift. It can not be earned.. Before during or after you receive it. Jesus paid it all.

Yes, so we must accept Christ for Salvation. And accepting him is accepting the need to live in him.

My temperature is fine.

Go back and read what you wrote. Your temperature was *not* fine!

If you can't be honest about how you feel, how can you be honest about what Scriptures say? Read James 2 and 1 John 2 again, and give me a real answer next time.

I've never said we "earn our Salvation." I've never said we "self-atone." Comprendes?

 

[Augustin56]

Yep

Anyone,

Including YOUR CHURCH. MY CHURCH. OR ANY OTHER CHURCH.

so what is the theme paul is trying to get across.

don;t follow men, Follow God

So, how does one follow God, should be the question. Does one ignore the Church established by Jesus (God) to decide for him-/herself what is right and wrong and what Jesus taught? (like the serpent tempting Eve, telling her that if she eats the forbidden fruit, she surely will not die as God promised, but would become like God, choosing for herself what is true or not) Does one found one's own church apart from the one Jesus established, because they think they know better? Jesus established a Church with a heirarchy of men He called to lead the Church. Jesus said, "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” Luke 10:16 So, you either listen to the men He called in His Church, or you don't.

Jesus identifies as one with His Church. That's why He asked Saul (Paul by his Hebrew name), "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" rather than "...why do you persecute My Church?" which he was actually doing. Persecute Christ's Church, and you persecute Christ.

 

[Augustin56]

STOP FOLLOWING MEN!
Your as bad as he is. You both follow men..

Start following God. This response to him is nothign but arrogant pride in your church..

So, Jesus put Peter in charge of His Church to lead and sanctify His Church after He ascended to heaven for no reason? He trained Apostles for no reason?

The real issue is authority. Since Jesus knew He was ascending back to heaven, he needed someone down here to spread His truths. He didn't write a book. He established a Church. It wasn't a democracy, either, where everyone could vote on what they believed. He called certain men to lead and teach mankind through His Church.

Authority is given, not taken. Christ clearly gave His authority to His Church and promised that His Church would never teach doctrinal error. See Matt. 16:18 where Jesus promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church. If His Church ever changed one doctine of His, then the gates of hell would certainly have prevailed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, we *have to.* That's what James 2 and 1 John 2 make clear, no matter what you say.

But neither said we had to.

James was speaking to hears of the word not doers. And he asked them to prove their faith by their works (to which they had non) and said their faith was dead.

A dead faith never received salvation. Because it was never received in faith. Jesus did nto accept their lack of faith and never giave them his gift, because he knew their hearts.

I never said that we self-atone, or earn our own Salvation.

You say it all the time, No matter what you say (using your own words)

I said the opposite. The need to opt to live in Christ is not "earning Salvation!" Accepting Christ is a prerequisite for Salvation. And accepting Christ *requires* that we accept *living in Christ.* Otherwise, we have not really accepted Christ at all! We *have to* accept Christ to be saved!

Yes, so we must accept Christ for Salvation. And accepting him is accepting the need to live in him.

lol. See you just did it again

It is what CHrist did and what we promise we will do. Its not just faith in Jesus, its faith in yourself.

lol.. Sorry, I have to laugh that you keep repeating this, but cannot see what your doing.

Go back and read what you wrote. Your temperature was *not* fine!

Yawn. I was being falslyu accused. Maybe you did not like the way I called you out. But my temperature was fine.

this is the internet my friend, You can not read peoples moods.

If you can't be honest about how you feel, how can you be honest about what Scriptures say? Read James 2 and 1 John 2 again, and give me a real answer next time.

I gave t to you already, so see, once again you are falsly accusing me

how about this. You go back and find my answers to you. and them you repost them and explain to me how I got it wrong? Can you humble yourself enough to do this, or just falsly accuse? (and no I am not mad. I am just calling you out.. Take it however you want)

I've never said we "earn our Salvation." I've never said we "self-atone." Comprendes?

No

Because you continue to say you earn your salvation by your works. and the things you claim YOU must do

Then deny your saying it.

Like I said, you contradict yourself. then get mad at me. because I am trying my best to show you what you will doing so prayerfully you can see it yourself. Like people had to do to me about 15 years ago

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, how does one follow God, should be the question.

1. Study to show yourself approved, a workman who needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth 2 tim 2: 15
2. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 john 4: 1

don't blindly follow any man or any church, but test what they are saying, study yourself. so if they are a false prophet. they can not deceive you.

Does one ignore the Church established by Jesus (God) to decide for him-/herself what is right and wrong and what Jesus taught?

One can not determine which church is right, unless they do the 2 things I pointed out above.

Again, Do not trust anyone

(like the serpent tempting Eve, telling her that if she eats the forbidden fruit, she surely will not die as God promised, but would become like God, choosing for herself what is true or not) Does one found one's own church apart from the one Jesus established, because they think they know better? Jesus established a Church with a heirarchy of men He called to lead the Church. Jesus said, "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” Luke 10:16 So, you either listen to the men He called in His Church, or you don't.

Jesus identifies as one with His Church. That's why He asked Saul (Paul by his Hebrew name), "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" rather than "...why do you persecute My Church?" which he was actually doing. Persecute Christ's Church, and you persecute Christ.

again, You want to follow men, Go ahead.

Eternity is to long for me to make the same mistake the jews made. But if you are comfortable in believing what you believe, feel free.. I am sure the Jews were comfortable also

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, Jesus put Peter in charge of His Church to lead and sanctify His Church after He ascended to heaven for no reason? He trained Apostles for no reason?

No he did not put peter in charge

Peter james and John were in charge of the church in jerusalem.

Paul was given authority to the churches in the gentile nations..

The real issue is authority. Since Jesus knew He was ascending back to heaven, he needed someone down here to spread His truths. He didn't write a book. He established a Church. It wasn't a democracy, either, where everyone could vote on what they believed. He called certain men to lead and teach mankind through His Church.

Authority is given, not taken. Christ clearly gave His authority to His Church and promised that His Church would never teach doctrinal error. See Matt. 16:18 where Jesus promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church. If His Church ever changed one doctine of His, then the gates of hell would certainly have prevailed.

lol. Your stuck on religion. you can not even get this right.

 

[Augustin56]

1. Study to show yourself approved, a workman who needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth 2 tim 2: 15
2. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 john 4: 1

don't blindly follow any man or any church, but test what they are saying, study yourself. so if they are a false prophet. they can not deceive you.




One can not determine which church is right, unless they do the 2 things I pointed out above.

Again, Do not trust anyone

again, You want to follow men, Go ahead.

Eternity is to long for me to make the same mistake the jews made. But if you are comfortable in believing what you believe, feel free.. I am sure the Jews were comfortable also

I follow Christ by following the men HE called to lead me in HIS Church. Nowhere does Christ say we're on our own and we have to figure it all out ourselves.

In fact, Jesus told the ones He called, "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” Luke 10:16

Paul says that it is the CHURCH that is the "pillar and foundation of truth." 1 Tim 3:15 Not some individual personally interpreting Scripture on his/her own.

Anytime you quote Scripture on your own, unless you are taking the interpretation given mankind by the same Church that wrote the New Testament, then you are personally interpreting Scripture and open to error. St. Peter warned against such an approach in 2 Peter 1:20, that says, "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation."

 

[Augustin56]

No he did not put peter in charge

Peter james and John were in charge of the church in jerusalem.

Paul was given authority to the churches in the gentile nations..

lol. Your stuck on religion. you can not even get this right.

You clearly don't know or understand Scripture. When Jesus gave Peter the "keys to the kingdom" in Matt. 16:19, He was referring to an office of second-in-command that every first century Jew would have understood. (See Isaiah 22;22 for an example.) Kings back in those days had someone assigned as second-in-command to rule the kingdom in the king's absence (off to war, ill, visiting another kingdom, etc.) The symbol of this office was a large key or two, about 2-3 ft. long, that he carried over his shoulder. When the king returned, he upheld the second-in-commands rulings. This position was dynastic, meaning, if the second-in-command died or was unable to function, another was appointed in his place. This is exactly what Jesus was doing. He knew he would be ascending to heaven and wanted someone on earth to rule His kingdom on earth until He returned. Peter was the first to hold this office.

Your religion is you. You claim authority that was never given to you. You hold yourself and your personal interpretation as the highest standard of truth. But as Proverbs 3:5 says, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own intelligence do not rely"

 

[Ronald Nolette]

but the 5 points are not true

the 1st is only partially true, and not in context of fatalism,
the next 3 are not true at all
the final ones puts the onus on the believer to persevere, not on God to keep those who are his, so this in essence is wrong also.

They are biblical. Very much so.

YOu need to read in detail teh five points and not just the one line sentence that defines each letter of TULIP

 

[Ronald Nolette]

But they did not right in the context that supports those points

Yes they did.

um, no he did not.

The 5 points are not in scripture.. Now you may be able to come up with the 5 points by using scripture (like the trinity) but the 5 points are not in scripture.

But they most certainly are.

This is rude my friend

truth can be at times when one will not yield to it.

And Calvin got it wrong.

Easy to say, why don't you do better than th ephony behold and show from Scripture why the five points are not biblical.

um, no they were not. and neither are you

Waiting for you to show why they are not taught. Rebut the five points instead of just saying no they are not biblical.

But the 5 points come from an interpretation of scripture. be careful what you say

No they are not interpreted. But the points are established by accept9ing the words inspired at their face value and their normal, common usage. I am very careful in what I say. I have backed up my stand by Scripture (see teh thread TULIP explained). Waiting for you to back up you rstance with more than just your say so.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You clearly don't know or understand Scripture. When Jesus gave Peter the "keys to the kingdom" in Matt. 16:19, He was referring to an office of second-in-command that every first century Jew would have understood. (See Isaiah 22;22 for an example.) Kings back in those days had someone assigned as second-in-command to rule the kingdom in the king's absence (off to war, ill, visiting another kingdom, etc.) The symbol of this office was a large key or two, about 2-3 ft. long, that he carried over his shoulder. When the king returned, he upheld the second-in-commands rulings. This position was dynastic, meaning, if the second-in-command died or was unable to function, another was appointed in his place. This is exactly what Jesus was doing. He knew he would be ascending to heaven and wanted someone on earth to rule His kingdom on earth until He returned. Peter was the first to hold this office.

You have not responded to a question I asked you. Are you a member of the RCC?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They are biblical. Very much so.

YOu need to read in detail teh five points and not just the one line sentence that defines each letter of TULIP

I did this years ago. I have done it many times over, And in non of my reading do I see biblical support.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes they did.

But they most certainly are.

truth can be at times when one will not yield to it.

Easy to say, why don't you do better than th ephony behold and show from Scripture why the five points are not biblical.

Waiting for you to show why they are not taught. Rebut the five points instead of just saying no they are not biblical.

No they are not interpreted. But the points are established by accept9ing the words inspired at their face value and their normal, common usage. I am very careful in what I say. I have backed up my stand by Scripture (see teh thread TULIP explained). Waiting for you to back up you rstance with more than just your say so.

All I see here is your view. You keep saying they are inspired. Where is it inspired. Chapter and verse.. You saying it is the word. And others saying it is not, is not helping. You claim it is, Back your statement

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I follow Christ by following the men HE called to lead me in HIS Church. Nowhere does Christ say we're on our own and we have to figure it all out ourselves.

In fact, Jesus told the ones He called, "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” Luke 10:16

Paul says that it is the CHURCH that is the "pillar and foundation of truth." 1 Tim 3:15 Not some individual personally interpreting Scripture on his/her own.

Anytime you quote Scripture on your own, unless you are taking the interpretation given mankind by the same Church that wrote the New Testament, then you are personally interpreting Scripture and open to error. St. Peter warned against such an approach in 2 Peter 1:20, that says, "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation."

The jews said they followed God because Abraham was their father.

Hey you want to make the same mistake. Feel free.

I chose to be like the bereans and not even take pauls word for it. But to test the scriptures to make sure paul was teaching correctly.