Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved

[Behold]

Christian's are under the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.

Christians are in the Kingdom of God, and only righteousness is found there..

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Commandment keeping along with law keeping, cannot make you righteous before God, and without God's righteousness, you can't go to heaven.

This means that you can be obsessed with commandment keeping, and go to Hell, exactly as you can be water baptized and go to hell.

Whereas, if you are born again, commandment keeping has no relevance regarding the spiritual birth , and only the born again, go to Heaven.

There are thousands of water baptized commandment keepers, who died and went to hell, today.

Who went to heaven who died?
All who did this.. and only those.. who did this.

Jesus said.. "YOU must be born again"., and commandment keeping cant do that for you, nor can water baptism.

Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

The only way to do that on a Forum, for the most part... is to go to the "Prayer Forum", and reply with care.

For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,

That applies to both the born again, and to the unbelievers.

but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
Galatians 6:8

This only applies to the Born again, who have "reaped" Eternal Life, already.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Who in our spirit keeps us persevering.....the Holy Spirit Of course...those who are carnal wouldn’t understand a word of this would they?

Plus we have been Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever.......

​

◄ 1 Peter 1 ►

​

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ A Greeting from Peter (2 Peter 1:1–2) 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the elect who are exiles of the Dispersion throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, chosena 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. A Living Hope 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birthb into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in various trials 7so that the proven character of your faith—more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and though you do not see Him now, you believe in Him and rejoice with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9now that you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. 10Concerning this salvation, the prophets who foretold the grace to come to you searched and investigated carefully, 11trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things. A Call to Holiness (Hebrews 12:14–17) 13Therefore prepare your minds for action.c Be sober-minded. Set your hope fully on the grace to be given you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14As obedient children, do not conform to the passions of your former ignorance. 15But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do, 16for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”d 17Since you call on a Father who judges each one’s work impartially, conduct yourselves in reverent fear during your stay as foreigners. 18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot. 20He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake. 21Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him; and so your faith and hope are in God. The Enduring Word (Isaiah 40:6–8) 22Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart.e 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For, “All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25but the word of the Lord stands forever.”f And this is the word that was proclaimed to you.

Of course!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

OSAS, is the contemporary version of what unsaved religious Jews accused Paul of teaching, 2000 yrs ago.

2000 yrs ago, it sounded like this.....>"You are telling us to sin, so that Grace will come".

So, what is happening here?
Its this.
A person who can't understand that they are kept saved, exactly the same way they became saved, teach that God's Grace, when taught correctly, is "sin license".

So, when a Christian does not understand Salvation, they will believe they can lose their salvation, .. and so, once they are deceived in that way, then they can't possibly understand, Eternal Life in Christ, as Eternal Security found as being "in Christ", as "One with God".

The deceived believer only understands, "once saved"... .... and so, they can't understand "always saved", and that is because they do not trust in Christ to keep them saved, forever.

Paul put that lie to death as most OSAS preachers do today.

I have no clue as to these license to sin crowd you refer to. they are outside of my Christian fellowshiping.

 

[Behold]

Paul put that lie to death as most OSAS preachers do today.

Paul teaches that all the born again are "in Christ".

So, this is "eternal life"...

This never ends..

What the Believer has to figure out, is that... God accepted them as a sinner.... and now if they are trying to prove you can lose their salvation, by not being a good, whatever,........ when in fact, God accepted them as His Son/Daughter..., when they were "yet a sinner"...

People who believe they can "lose it".... need to think on that a bit., before you try to prove that something you DO, can cause God to let you go, ....., when in fact, the only reason God took you to begin with , is the same reason God keeps all the born again.

A.) Jesus

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul teaches that all the born again are "in Christ".

So, this is "eternal life"...

This never ends..

What you have to figure out, is that... God accepted you as a sinner.... and now you are trying to prove you can lose your salvation, by not being a good, whatever,........ when in fact, God accepted you as His Son, when you were "yet a sinner"...

You need to think on that a bit., before you try to prove that something you DO, can cause God to let you go, ....., when in fact, the only reason He took you to begin with @Ronald Nolette , is the same reason God keeps all the born again.

A.) Jesus

I do not try to prove something I know is false. I am eternally secure in my Savior Jesus because of Him.

 

[Behold]

I do not try to prove something I know is false. I am eternally secure in my Savior Jesus because of Him.

If you are "eternally secure in Jesus" then you have THE eternal security that is found "in Christ".

Being born again, proves that the CHRISTian has "eternal life" that is "Eternal Security", and that is found by being "IN Christ".

 

[BlessedPeace]

Proving it and you listening are not the same things. I will be happy to prove it once you cease with the personal attacks. You have been relentless ever since I first addressed the OP and you immediately inferred I am going to hell.

Saying "He who is without sin cast the first stone" is not an admission of sin. When Jesus said it, he wasn't saying he is a sinner. You are actually the one bearing false witness at this point.


How come you haven't replied to my first reply in this thread with a scriptural rebuttal yet? Are you stalling? Begin with post #34.

No personal attacks on my part at all.

I take your obfuscation as concession you admit you cannot prove your claims.

What you are doing is called Transference. You claim others are guilty of your actions in order to derail the discussion that on this case challenges your claims that are contrary to Scripture.


It is a personal attack. Not by me though. By you, upon God's words.

You should be ashamed.

 

[Runningman]

No personal attacks on my part at all.

I take your obfuscation as concession you admit you cannot prove your claims.

What you are doing is called Transference. You claim others are guilty of your actions in order to derail the discussion that on this case challenges your claims that are contrary to Scripture.


It is a personal attack. Not by me though. By you, upon God's words.

You should be ashamed.

Seems your element is being dramatic and manipulative. In that case, it's better to take your toys away. You can't keep derailing this thread away from the topic if no one will play with you.

If you change your mind and want to actually discuss what the Bible says, I will post my first reply in this thread from post #34 again:

Under the premise of Calvin's TULIP it wouldn't matter if someone lives like the devil or not because they are elected and are predestined to eventually persevere because the P doesn't stand alone in Calvinism. It takes the whole point out of doing anything if God is pulling all of the strings then any failures or successes would not be of one's choosing nor their fault. If this sounds antithetical to the Bible then it's because it is. Calvinism and OSAS aren't Christianity.

In real Christianity, people make their own choices and their perseverance until the end is entirely dependent on their choices. This is why people are ultimately judged according to their works, not God works. Based on their choices, they will be given eternal life or not.

Romans 2
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Seems your element is being dramatic and manipulative. In that case, it's better to take your toys away. You can't keep derailing this thread away from the topic if no one will play with you.

If you change your mind and want to actually discuss what the Bible says, I will post my first reply in this thread from post #34 again:

Under the premise of Calvin's TULIP it wouldn't matter if someone lives like the devil or not because they are elected and are predestined to eventually persevere because the P doesn't stand alone in Calvinism. It takes the whole point out of doing anything if God is pulling all of the strings then any failures or successes would not be of one's choosing nor their fault. If this sounds antithetical to the Bible then it's because it is. Calvinism and OSAS aren't Christianity.

In real Christianity, people make their own choices and their perseverance until the end is entirely dependent on their choices. This is why people are ultimately judged according to their works, not God works. Based on their choices, they will be given eternal life or not.

Romans 2
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.

I know another here who speaks in derogatory terms to Christian Elect here.

I understand how your natural consciousness displays that dysfunctional attitude when the Holiness doctrine is laid forth .


It is a falsehood to claim I or any of my sisters and brothers here derail this thread when we defend the truth of God's eternal security against slanderers and liars.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus is Salvation.

Can you do that?


So, If God's Salvation is "The Gift of Salvation" and "The Gifts and callings of God are without REPENTANCE"......

What does that mean.
It means that once God gives you a Gift, its God's imputed eternal Gift.
You didnt earn, it, you didnt work for it, and its God caused., and God gifted.

= This is.. "Born again".
You can't do that, so you can't undo that., and that is why there is no verse in a bible that says, "You can be unborn again".
You can't end a BIRTH based on Behavior.
You can't stop being a "new Creation",, "in Christ" because that is that is God caused, while you were "yet a sinner"., not after you were good for a while and tried to start saving yourself, because you lost all your Faith in Christ.

So, the Height of Pride, is when a person believes that they can undo what God has done.
And that is what is happening in the head of a deceived person, who does not understand what it means to be "in "Christ", as "one with God".

Let me put it to you like this reader.
Once a deceived believer believes that they have more power to end salvation, then Jesus who is in the Born Again, has given them Eternal life, then this person is lost in pride.

"You can't keep me saved God... see, i found 3 verses that TO ME, prove to ME, that i have more power to lose YOUR GIFT of Salvation, then You have the Power to keep me saved".

You know what God does with this type of carnal person, this "self saver", this, Denier of Eternal Life?

God does nothing with them... nothing.
He just moves on to a real believer., who has real faith, and uses that one.

The above is all very interesting, I'm sure.

However, there's no scripture so it's your opinion.
Can we post scripture so we could have a real conversation?

Can you explain the following if it's impossible to forfeit our salvation?
I already gave you one or two verses to which there is no reply.

Here's another one:

Colossians 1:19-20
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel...


John 15:10
10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.



And Jesus stated a fact you do not agree with:

John 15:6
6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

You could try to debunk the above,
or
You could post some verses that state that it's impossible for us to forfeit our salvation once we have it.

But your opinion doesn't interest anyone here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes all true. I know you and I disagree about some other things, but on this we agree. I see that in this thread there is a bit of sleight of hand going on.

Comment #1 conflated Christianity with Reformed theology when they aren’t really the same things.

And Got Questions has a heavy Calvinist lean so it’s possible they may try to merge Calvinism with the Protestant reformation and say that’s what Christianity is.

@BlessedPeace I think at this point we need to sort things into their correct category and properly define them before a conversation can truly begin.

We won't agree on everything.
But reformed theology is an important topic.

Here's why:
Some denomination or otherwill always have some doctrine or other wrong because they'll understand it in some way that they feel is correct. This is true of all denominations.

The problem with reformed theology is that it CHANGES THE NATURE OF GOD.
This is horrendous.

And do some think it took the reformation to understand the NT??
Were all those that came before for 1,500 years dumb?

And it's rather funny when a Calvinist posts replies from QotQuestions for support.
They'll also use one of the Confessions at times too....
Don't they understand that they're the only ones who believe the Confessions??

And I love some here who claim we don't understand Calvinism and then go ahead and never post scripture.

 

[Earburner]

The above is all very interesting, I'm sure.

However, there's no scripture so it's your opinion.
Can we post scripture so we could have a real conversation?

Can you explain the following if it's impossible to forfeit our salvation?
I already gave you one or two verses to which there is no reply.

Here's another one:

Colossians 1:19-20
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel...


John 15:10
10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.



And Jesus stated a fact you do not agree with:

John 15:6
6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

You could try to debunk the above,
or
You could post some verses that state that it's impossible for us to forfeit our salvation once we have it.

But your opinion doesn't interest anyone here.

Heb. 10:16-31
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

[29] Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS sanctified, an unholy thing [despised the blood of the covenant], and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[30] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Proving it and you listening are not the same things. I will be happy to prove it once you cease with the personal attacks. You have been relentless ever since I first addressed the OP and you immediately inferred I am going to hell.

Saying "He who is without sin cast the first stone" is not an admission of sin. When Jesus said it, he wasn't saying he is a sinner. You are actually the one bearing false witness at this point.


How come you haven't replied to my first reply in this thread with a scriptural rebuttal yet? Are you stalling? Begin with post #34.

@BlessedPeace is unable to reply to a serious post.
He/she just likes to laugh a lot.

Also, that member believes God went on vacation and left Him/her in charge.

I think God is still in charge of souls and not him/her.

Jesus said not to judge.
He meant a souls salvation or lack thereof.

Apparently the other member forgot to read Matthew 7:1

 

[GodsGrace]

What?

There is so much confusion about OSAS (a negative term for eternal security)

OSAS = Eternal Security

OSAS = Once Saved Always Saved = Eternal Security

How is OSAS not eternal security?

--- PARODY ---

OSAS person: Are you saved?
NOSAS person: What do you mean?
OSAS person: Do you have salvation in Jesus Christ?
NOSAS person: No one does.
OSAS person: Seriously?
NOSAS person: Yes. You have to persevere to the end.
OSAS person: So, you have to wait and see?
NOSAS person: I suppose so.
OSAS person: What if you don't make it?
NOSAS person: I guess I'm toast.
OSAS person: That's tragic!

]

I gave the explanation of the difference.
You don't have to accept it.

Just quick:

Every Christian believes in eternal security.
We are SECURE IN CHRIST.
As long as we are IN CHRIST we are secure.

OSAS believers think they could live as they wish to...
NOT BE IN CHRIST, but still be saved because they walked down an isle at some point in their life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Heb. 10:16-31
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

[29] Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS sanctified, an unholy thing [despised the blood of the covenant], and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[30] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1. I'm not under the Law.
I don't know any Christian that is.

2. I gave you a couple of veses.
So you ignore them and send me back Hebrews 10?

I'll reply after you reply to mine.
I'm not playing verse ping pong.

 

[BlessedPeace]

The above is all very interesting, I'm sure.

However, there's no scripture so it's your opinion.
Can we post scripture so we could have a real conversation?

Can you explain the following if it's impossible to forfeit our salvation?
I already gave you one or two verses to which there is no reply.

Here's another one:

Colossians 1:19-20
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel...


John 15:10
10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.



And Jesus stated a fact you do not agree with:

John 15:6
6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

You could try to debunk the above,
or
You could post some verses that state that it's impossible for us to forfeit our salvation once we have it.

When countless Scriptures have been posted and ignored by those opposed to the Gospel,continuing to post would be folly. The New Testament,just the first 4 books, tell the truth. We merely repeat that. And it is still opposed.

I will say this about your challenge to debunk,not the right word btw, John 15:6.

And perhaps part of the problem is that English isn't their first language

Relational present tense. "Those who do not abide in Him are thrown
...."
Abide=an intransitive verb.
Abide=To live or stay somewhere.

We abide in Him and He in us. Because He chose us. We did not choose us. And pride,hubris,arrogance and Satan,believe we can evict God.

Lucifer thought that when he led his war against God in Heaven.

Now,he's leading others to think they can do the same thing in the Temples of God that are we God's Elect.

Lucifer is wrong. Again.

But your opinion doesn't interest anyone here.

You do not speak for anyone else here!

There are other ones who accuse The Elect in Christ of offering opinion when we are actually presenting Scripture in context.

 

[GodsGrace]

Eternal Security is OSAS! and it is also the perseverance of the saints. Remember they needed a P for tulip and chose that. Look at the definition and not just the title of the acronym

Also your Galatians passage is not about salvation but about reaping rewards

You didn't repost my Galatians passage and explain how it's about rewards.
That would be greatly appreciated.

Is this the Theology Forum or the Let's Have A Chat Forum??

I'm honestly confused by these members that do not use scripture.
Theology is a serious subject and scripture must be provided.
Personal opinion is not valid when discussing God.

And you say P needs to be defined?

How's this for a definition.
From John Calvin:

...for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8


I truly wonder how any Calvinist could feel eternally secure.

 

[BlessedPeace]

@BlessedPeace is unable to reply to a serious post.
He/she just likes to laugh a lot.

That's a lie. And Slander.

Also, that member believes God went on vacation and left Him/her in charge.

I think God is still in charge of souls and not him/her.

Jesus said not to judge.
He meant a souls salvation or lack thereof.

Apparently the other member forgot to read Matthew 7:1

More lies.

 

[GodsGrace]

When countless Scriptures have been posted and ignored by those opposed to the Gospel,continuing to post would be folly. The New Testament,just the first 4 books, tell the truth. We merely repeat that. And it is still opposed.

I will say this about your challenge to debunk,not the right word btw, John 15:6.

And perhaps part of the problem is that English isn't their first language

Relational present tense. "Those who do not abide in Him are thrown
...."
Abide=an intransitive verb.
Abide=To live or stay somewhere.

We abide in Him and He in us. Because He chose us. We did not choose us. And pride,hubris,arrogance and Satan,believe we can evict God.

Lucifer thought that when he led his war against God in Heaven.

Now,he's leading others to think they can do the same thing in the Temples of God that are we God's Elect.

Lucifer is wrong. Again.


You do not speak for anyone else here!

There are other ones who accuse The Elect in Christ of offering opinion when we are actually presenting Scripture in context.

How do you know what my native tongue is?
Wanna take an English test?

I don't care to post to you.
Your rantings put me to sleep.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's a lie. And Slander.



More lies.

LOL
It's only slander if it's NOT true.
In this case it IS true and I have all your silly laughing emoji's on MANY of my posts.
Wanna go to court?
We'll find out about my English AND the law....